Yamaha recievers that shutdown during loud passages (Might be the entire product line) - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Yamaha reciever shutdown when play scenes with loud bass such as explosions when volumes a
Yes 3 10.71%
No 21 75.00%
I bough my reciever to listen to music and movies at low volumes and I'm not going to risk my hearing or equipment to give you an answer. 4 14.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 119 Old 02-02-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

That is the source of your problem.  You are effectively lowering the level from the Yamaha to feed your NAD by using the volume control of the NAD to turn it down.  Thus, you end up overdriving the preamp outputs of your Yamaha trying to compensate.  So you need to stop doing that.


You should probably simply forget about the NAD entirely, and just use the Yamaha.  But if you are going to use the NAD, you should turn up its volume control, and then the "problem" with the Yamaha will disappear, because you will not need to turn the Yamaha up so high.  And by the way, your terminology is a bit off, as the volume control is a preamp function, yet you say you want to control the volume from the NAD while using the Yamaha as a preamp.  If you were really properly using the Yamaha as a preamp, you would control the volume from the Yamaha.  If you are going to use the NAD with it as if the NAD were a power amp, you should set the volume of the NAD such that the Yamaha's volume control never has to be turned up as high as you presently wish to turn it.


You write as though the Yamaha is defective.  The reality is, you are misusing it.

I understand you point. However I've noticed while listening to Pandora or watching youtube even at volumes of 0 I can have shutoffs. And on my old 765 I even had problems at -7. I'm not totally sure this is accurate however the Yamahas have a lower limit of -80 and a upper limit of +16 I'll say the range is 96. at -7 I was 23 away from the max, which means I was using the preamp at about 74%.

 

 

That is just wrong.  You have NO IDEA what level it is at a given setting of the volume control (other than all the way down).  The reason is that the level is not purely a function of the volume control; it is also a function of the input level.  If the input level is higher, the output level will be higher for any given setting on the volume control (again, excluding all the way down).  You could have overdriving problems at any setting of the volume control (again, excluding all the way down).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post
You are free to believe that using it to 74% is misusing it. However I'm stating that anyone using external amps and playing material at anything above -7 will shutdown the receiver when the condition is right. 

 

Yes, and it should shut down, if the conditions are right.  The thing is, you are NOT simply hooking the outputs up to a power amp; you are running the outputs into a preamp, and from there reducing the signal.  So your situation is NOT representative of what one would expect hooking up a power amp to the Yamaha.  Your misuse is not an indication of any problem occurring if one hooked up the preamp outputs to a power amp.  That is because you are hooking up the outputs to a preamp, and so what it does with that tells you damn near nothing about what it would do hooking it up to a power amp.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post
The problem will not disappear. Playing the same scene without a amp or speakers connected will still shut it down. I will not matter if the amp is a 20W amp or 1000W amp. Even if someone has a 1000W amp they can still play the receiver up to levels of 0 or above.

However you are right, with a proper amp I may be less likely to run into the condition. However I often encounter quite passages in movies so I have to have the receiver at a "Loud" volume to hear clearly. I don't feel that constantly adjusting the volume during a movie to be acceptable. Ideally I like to hit play and just be able to enjoy the movie to the end.

I don't believe the Yamaha is defective, I believe it's working as designed. I'm just wondering why they are the only company in the industry that exhibits this behavior.

 

What a unit will do at any given setting of the volume control is going to be a function of the design of the unit.  And whether or not the company chose to put in protective circuitry to protect things from abuse with preamp outputs or not.

 

 

If you set the volume control properly higher on the NAD, and used the Yamaha volume control, you would have no problems with the Yamaha.  If you persist in using things improperly, you may well continue to have problems.  But you have not shown that anyone who uses the gear properly will ever have a problem with it.

 

And this explains why the internet is not littered with complaints about Yamaha receivers.  Most people do not use them so improperly as you do, and so they do not have any problems.

 

I have never had a Yamaha receiver shut down on me, no matter how loud I turned the volume.  With proper use, there is no problem.  That there may be a problem with improper use should not surprise anyone.


God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #62 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I see no place in the user guide where disconnecting speakers fully disables the AVR's power amps. If you find such a feature, please let me know so that I might inform myself better.

If the power amps are connected to the preamps in the AVR , then they are producing voltage at their output. No load = no current, but the voltage waveform is still being produced.

The protection circuits in an AVR are almost always hooked to the AVR's power amplifier outputs.

If you are overdriving the AVR's amplfiers even with no load attached, its protection circuits may be activated for any number of reasons. A DC residual may be generated, for example. This may be miinimized if the amps are driving load resistors of a suitable resistance and wattage. Or not.

My best advice is: "Don't do that!" ;-)

I never implied that disconnecting the speakers turn off the internal amp.

I was making a point, not accusing you.
Quote:
From what I was told there is no way to turn off the internal amp.

I agree
Quote:
However I do think it's running as the receiver feels too warm to be without a amp running by my guess.

Given that one can obtain IR thermometers that gives accurate readings of an AVR's temperature for a few bucks, there is no reason to guess.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Digital-Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-LCD-Thermomete-Digital-Probe-Thermometer-ES-/111256827515

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make, just the introductory comments.

Here's the meaty part of my post:

The protection circuits in an AVR are almost always hooked to the AVR's power amplifier outputs.

If you are overdriving the AVR's amplfiers even with no load attached, its protection circuits may be activated for any number of reasons. A DC residual may be generated, for example. This may be minimized if the amps are driving load resistors of a suitable resistance and wattage. Or not.

My best advice is: "Don't do that!" ;-)[/quote]
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post #63 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you are overdriving the AVR's amplfiers even with no load attached, its protection circuits may be activated for any number of reasons. A DC residual may be generated, for example. This may be minimized if the amps are driving load resistors of a suitable resistance and wattage. Or not.
Test results are in and this is correct. And Tony is correct as far as Iron Man 3 will drive the Yamaha 773 into protection mode (not heat related) during the full range (bass heavy) explosions. But only at extreme sound pressure levels. Maybe Yamaha just wants to protect our hearing. I wore earplugs during the test and my ears still hurt!

All testing was done playing a high def version of the movie (fight scene near the end) with a dolby digital (5.1) audio track from a directv dvr.
Dvr is connected to receiver with hdmi only. Hdmi from receiver to tv. Yamaha YPAO single position run before every scenario tested. Speakers found to be normal and large every time. Speakers were run as 5.0 all set to large every test except last one. EQ set to flat. I prefer normal.

All 5 speakers are midrange quality center speakers with either 1" soft dome or ribbon tweeters. All 5 speakers have dual 6.5" midrange. Speakers vary from 8 ohm to 4 ohm rated and none are meant to play below 45hz. I set no low crossover anyway. Receiver never got very hot.
I found that different sound programs played same content at different db levels. 7 channel stereo was probably the loudest at any given receiver volume level. All measurements were made by a radio shack digital meter set to c weighted and fast response.

Receiver sound program was set at standard for all tests. I believe this is true dolby digital. I don't care for any of the echo chamber stuff.
Test #1 5.0 large full range speakers connected. Receiver went into protection mode on loud explosion at volume +2.0 meter reading peaks of 100db. Speakers put out decent bass, but clearly not below 20hz. Explosion has not just bass, but plenty of midrange also.

Test #2 Disconnected all speakers from receiver with all settings same as test #1. Receiver put out no sound and still went into protection at volume +5.0 during explosions.

Test #3 Connected Emotiva XPA-5 five channel class a/b amplifier to receiver with cheap (monoprice) single pin (rca) cables. Amp set to unbalanced and turned on by trigger from receiver. Reran mic setup. Again all speakers set to large full range signal. (I would never do this in real life). Sound meter read 100db peaks at receiver volume -2.0 and went into protection at receiver volume +1.0.

Test #4 Exactly same as #3, but with amplifier turned off. Receiver went into protection at volume +14.0. Top of receiver was almost room temperature with amplifier connected. (Take that Onkyo)!

Test #5 Connected an Elemental Design 15" ported subwoofer to sub out #1 and turned Emotiva amp back on. Reran mic setup. All speakers were normal and large. Changed all 5 speakers to small. Only test with proper true 5.1 dd output. Crossover set to 80hz. Receiver hit 100db peaks at receiver volume -3.0 and played for a long time with peaks of 111db at receiver volume +10. At that point I quickly turned volume to maximum (above +16.5) and receiver went into protection. Subwoofer was shaking my whole house at 111db. Neighbors are mostly at work or school during test. My ears hurt even with earplugs.

At no time did I ever hear any distortion or clipping. Speakers and receiver survived, but i'll never do that again. I unplugged receiver between each test so it never went into permanent shutdown. I still love this receiver and still would recommend it to anybody except a professional dj maybe.
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post #64 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Test results are in and this is correct. And Tony is correct as far as Iron Man 3 will drive the Yamaha 773 into protection mode (not heat related) during the full range (bass heavy) explosions. But only at extreme sound pressure levels. Maybe Yamaha just wants to protect our hearing. I wore earplugs during the test and my ears still hurt!

All testing was done playing a high def version of the movie (fight scene near the end) with a dolby digital (5.1) audio track from a directv dvr.
Dvr is connected to receiver with hdmi only. Hdmi from receiver to tv. Yamaha YPAO single position run before every scenario tested. Speakers found to be normal and large every time. Speakers were run as 5.0 all set to large every test except last one. EQ set to flat. I prefer normal.

All 5 speakers are midrange quality center speakers with either 1" soft dome or ribbon tweeters. All 5 speakers have dual 6.5" midrange. Speakers vary from 8 ohm to 4 ohm rated and none are meant to play below 45hz. I set no low crossover anyway. Receiver never got very hot.
I found that different sound programs played same content at different db levels. 7 channel stereo was probably the loudest at any given receiver volume level. All measurements were made by a radio shack digital meter set to c weighted and fast response.

Receiver sound program was set at standard for all tests. I believe this is true dolby digital. I don't care for any of the echo chamber stuff.
Test #1 5.0 large full range speakers connected. Receiver went into protection mode on loud explosion at volume +2.0 meter reading peaks of 100db. Speakers put out decent bass, but clearly not below 20hz. Explosion has not just bass, but plenty of midrange also.

Test #2 Disconnected all speakers from receiver with all settings same as test #1. Receiver put out no sound and still went into protection at volume +5.0 during explosions.

Test #3 Connected Emotiva XPA-5 five channel class a/b amplifier to receiver with cheap (monoprice) single pin (rca) cables. Amp set to unbalanced and turned on by trigger from receiver. Reran mic setup. Again all speakers set to large full range signal. (I would never do this in real life). Sound meter read 100db peaks at receiver volume -2.0 and went into protection at receiver volume +1.0.

Test #4 Exactly same as #3, but with amplifier turned off. Receiver went into protection at volume +14.0. Top of receiver was almost room temperature with amplifier connected. (Take that Onkyo)!

Test #5 Connected an Elemental Design 15" ported subwoofer to sub out #1 and turned Emotiva amp back on. Reran mic setup. All speakers were normal and large. Changed all 5 speakers to small. Only test with proper true 5.1 dd output. Crossover set to 80hz. Receiver hit 100db peaks at receiver volume -3.0 and played for a long time with peaks of 111db at receiver volume +10. At that point I quickly turned volume to maximum (above +16.5) and receiver went into protection. Subwoofer was shaking my whole house at 111db. Neighbors are mostly at work or school during test. My ears hurt even with earplugs.

At no time did I ever hear any distortion or clipping. Speakers and receiver survived, but i'll never do that again. I unplugged receiver between each test so it never went into permanent shutdown. I still love this receiver and still would recommend it to anybody except a professional dj maybe.

We need more info..
1. Where were the bass & treble tone controls set?
2. What is the sensitivity specification @ 1W/1 meter for the loudspeaker?
3. What is the room size?
4. How far back is the listener from the front L/R loudspeakers?

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #65 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 04:28 PM
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One thing it clearly shows is that you have a lot more headroom when using a powered sub and all speakers set as small (which most of us know, but some people still feel insulted if you call their main speakers small).
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post #66 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 04:38 PM
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The room is a bonus room built inside roof trusses over a 3 car garage so the
room floor sits on 2" x 10" x 36' long framing on 2' centers. 10 years old building.
The room is 16' x 20' x 7.5' average height. No closet and only 1 door opening.

By tone control if you mean bass/treble I never adjust them so both a zero or centered.
Room correction set to only 1 measurement. Used default flat eq setting.

Speakers are a mixed bag of center speakers stood on end like a mini tower on carpeted
floor. They were all arranged in a near proper normal surround layout in a 10' diameter
arrangement. Subwoofer was near center of room, but slightly outside other speakers
facing sideways to the other speakers.

Setup mic and sound meter were placed on a cardboard box about 2' high at normal
sweet spot listening position. Speaker distances and level did vary some. This was a
temporary setup just to see if receiver really shuts down while driving nothing etc.

Speakers were a mixed bag. Front left/right ARX A2 (3 drivers) 6 ohm min. 90db sen. 200watt max.
Center Emotiva ERM 6.3 (5 drivers) 4 ohm 89db. 350watt rms.
Left surround HTD Level 3 (3 drivers) 8 ohm 89db. 150watt
Right surround Aperion Intimus 6C (4 drivers) 6 ohm 87db 300watts.

I have about 30 center, 10 bookshelf (6, 8 or 10" mids) and 5 pairs of satellite (4" mid Bose killer)
speakers to pick from, but own only 1 or 2 of most center speakers. No full range towers available.
I was able to drive 9 mixed bag center speakers all channel stereo with a Denon 4311 (780 watt
power supply) in a 9.2 configuration without ever shutting down. Never tried that Iron Man 3 though.

I can do a 3 HTD Level 3 with 2 HTD Level 2 with matching high range driver. Otherwise it is all
a mixed bag world. My regular listening area is a huge room with a pair of Behringer B2031P near
field bookshelf speakers mounted on the wall with Pinpoint AM40 mounts and one SV Sound PB12+
subwoofer 2.1 arrangement. I still have the 4311 along with a Pioneer 1121 receiver as spares.

I probably should have tested a 5.1 arrangement powered from the receiver with all speakers set
as small. That is how I would normally do it. I never run anything large except for this test. I can redo
or rearrange if needed. It is still set up. I was prepared to test 7.0, but ears and receiver gave out.
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post #67 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

One thing it clearly shows is that you have a lot more headroom when using a powered sub and all speakers set as small (which most of us know, but some people still feel insulted if you call their main speakers small).
I agree and was very reluctant to push center speakers as large. They clearly are not designed/intended to be used that way. And now I wish I would have tested them as small using the receiver amps. I still can. My biggest concern is it shuts down with all channels driven by external amps. That xpa-5 has been bench tested to output 180 watts per channel full bandwidth all 5 channels driven. And the subwoofer could have gone louder. I will wait for suggestions and maybe test different scenarios tuesday.
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post #68 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

One thing it clearly shows is that you have a lot more headroom when using a powered sub and all speakers set as small (which most of us know, but some people still feel insulted if you call their main speakers small).

Actually I don't know if that's completely true. I've noticed in doing my limited testing that the same passage with the receiver set at the same level the amp does not shut off every time not does it shut off at the exact same spot.

Kitkenit2 did a great test and posted very detailed results. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that and post about it.

I seems that connecting speakers might make the amp shutdown a little sooner, which I would expect as I think the receiver is working much harder with speakers connected to it.

I'm a little surprised that in #3 the receiver shutdown before #2. I'm thinking it just like how I noticed that it does not shutoff at the same setting at the same passage.

#4, I have also noticed that the 773 seems to runs more cool compared to my 765.

#5 I wish I had a sub, my neighbors are probably glad I don't.

I have replaced my NAD with a real amp now, I was able to pick up a fantastic deal on a Adcom GFA-7500. I did a quick test for a minute or 2 in the iron man 3 battle scene, and at -20 I averaged about 90 dB peaking at around 100dB. This was measured with a iPhone and app, so take it with a grain of salt, I do think it's probably within a few dB. I'm going to have to wait till my neighbors are not home and I have some time before I can do some serious testing with a analog Radio Shack dB meter.

Reading the manual in full, I found a few more details. First the receiver is rated for 4 ohm with the front 2 main channels, it is not rate to do the rears at 4 ohm so I wont be testing the internal amp, as Kitkenit2 already proves it still shuts down. Also the manual states that speakers should not be hooked up to the receiver if the pre-amp lineout is being used, so I would not recommend attaching any type of resistance to try and help it.

I'm surprised that the system peaked at around 100dB, I would have expected much higher with the setup.

The results are inline with what I expected. Yamaha receivers will shutdown when used at extreme levels when producing demanding material. I doubt it matters if you connect it to a amp or a receiver you can get shutdowns if you drive it hard enough. I know for sure that it will if you use it as a receiver, and I'm sure just about most the other receivers out there will do the same until you get into the very high end units which are a true all in one. For 99.9% of the people out there this receiver should be fine.

I think I'm going to be keeping the 773 as I really like the new features. Now that I use it as a true preamp I really like how I can control the volume from the airplay source. I will probably still experience a shutdown in the most demanding scenes.

Kitkenit, if you have not already answered the poll would you mind doing so? wink.gif
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post #69 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

I agree and was very reluctant to push center speakers as large. They clearly are not designed/intended to be used that way. And now I wish I would have tested them as small using the receiver amps. I still can. My biggest concern is it shuts down with all channels driven by external amps. That xpa-5 has been bench tested to output 180 watts per channel full bandwidth all 5 channels driven. And the subwoofer could have gone louder. I will wait for suggestions and maybe test different scenarios tuesday.

I set my fronts to large, and the rest small. I can try small also when I do testing next week. I have not been able to find completely reproducible shutdown test with the exception of the U-571 menu test. There are also many scenes in that movie that cause a shutdown.
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post #70 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I was making a point, not accusing you.
I agree
Given that one can obtain IR thermometers that gives accurate readings of an AVR's temperature for a few bucks, there is no reason to guess.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Digital-Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-LCD-Thermomete-Digital-Probe-Thermometer-ES-/111256827515

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make, just the introductory comments.

Here's the meaty part of my post:

The protection circuits in an AVR are almost always hooked to the AVR's power amplifier outputs.

If you are overdriving the AVR's amplfiers even with no load attached, its protection circuits may be activated for any number of reasons. A DC residual may be generated, for example. This may be minimized if the amps are driving load resistors of a suitable resistance and wattage. Or not.

My best advice is: "Don't do that!" ;-)
[/quote]

No worries, I was also just making it clear, also as Yamaha has told me there is no way to turn the amp off. I think I'll have to pick up a thermometer. One can never have to many toys.. However I wont be able to compare as I cant run the receiver with the amp and there's no way to turn it off. The only thing I can do is test the temp of the receiver with and without a amp connected, however I don't think that will amount to much difference to the overall temp...
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post #71 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post

I set my fronts to large, and the rest small. I can try small also when I do testing next week. I have not been able to find completely reproducible shutdown test with the exception of the U-571 menu test. There are also many scenes in that movie that cause a shutdown.
I knew I couldn't exactly mirror your speaker hardware so I went ahead and set up the extreme scenario. And I have never run a receiver with no speakers attached so I wanted to get to that situation quickly. Also I haven't used the xpa-5 lately so I wanted to verify it still worked. No way I wanted to shut it down due to heat. It only got warm on the center right top area and only when using the internal amps. Those movies vary the intensity a lot. Playing rock music in 7 channel music mode will create more heat if that is what you want. If nothing else I verified the more speakers set to small the better and using an external amp/speaker for the bass notes has the biggest effect. I was able to play 10db higher (twice as loud) that way. Those explosions were impressive. My ears still hurt. lol
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post #72 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

I knew I couldn't exactly mirror your speaker hardware so I went ahead and set up the extreme scenario. And I have never run a receiver with no speakers attached so I wanted to get to that situation quickly. Also I haven't used the xpa-5 lately so I wanted to verify it still worked. No way I wanted to shut it down due to heat. It only got warm on the center right top area and only when using the internal amps. Those movies vary the intensity a lot. Playing rock music in 7 channel music mode will create more heat if that is what you want. If nothing else I verified the more speakers set to small the better and using an external amp/speaker for the bass notes has the biggest effect. I was able to play 10db higher (twice as loud) that way. Those explosions were impressive. My ears still hurt. lol

That is the issue. Movies often have a huge range of range of volume and I ran into this issue the most watching movies. However as you noted your ears still hurt I'm guessing need to have the volume up so high with my new setup so I'll rarely run into the issue. I'm not looking to create more heat, I'm just looking for a sure fire way to trigger a shutdown consistently for testing. If you were wondering in my old setup I encountered shutdowns with just about any action movie I watched.

The problem appears to be that the amp is causing the receiver to shutdown even though there is no load presented in this extreme case. But no other receiver manufacture I know of has this issue. It would be nice if Yamaha could come up with a solution to this issue without turning down the volume.

I bet if you hooked up your other receiver to the optical out of your dvr that it will continue to run as the Yamaha shuts down.
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post #73 of 119 Old 02-03-2014, 10:38 PM
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I agree there is a slight design flaw here. The Pioneer 1121 was $50 cheaper than the 773 so pretty similar specs/feature range.
Tuesday i'll swap it out and see if it performs similar. The Denon 4311 was triple the cost and has twice as big power supply so
that isn't a fair comparison. It will damage my speakers before it shuts down. The new amp should help some compared to the nad
receiver. Anything that keeps the 773 volume below zero helps. If I was still in an apartment no way I could crank the bass up.

Dolby digital movies (5.1) generally make the talking hard to hear so we crank it up. Then the explosions start and we turn it down.
Try running the center channel a little hot and engage the dialogue adjust to compensate. And I guess you could try setting the
power limiter to 4ohm.
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post #74 of 119 Old 02-04-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post

That is the issue. Movies often have a huge range of range of volume and I ran into this issue the most watching movies. However as you noted your ears still hurt I'm guessing need to have the volume up so high with my new setup so I'll rarely run into the issue. I'm not looking to create more heat, I'm just looking for a sure fire way to trigger a shutdown consistently for testing. If you were wondering in my old setup I encountered shutdowns with just about any action movie I watched.

The problem appears to be that the amp is causing the receiver to shutdown even though there is no load presented in this extreme case. But no other receiver manufacture I know of has this issue. It would be nice if Yamaha could come up with a solution to this issue without turning down the volume.

I bet if you hooked up your other receiver to the optical out of your dvr that it will continue to run as the Yamaha shuts down.

In all your testing the only you've proven is that the protection circuitry built into the Yamaha is working as designed. Your testing of other brand's receivers proves nothing as it relates to the design of the Yamaha. Just because a Denon or Onkyo reacts differently to the same test doesn't mean the Yamaha is defective, it just means they are designed differently. The other brands likely designed their preamp sections to have lower output voltages so as to not clip, alternatively it's possible their protection circuitry is not as rigorous as what is in the Yamaha.

Though not the solution that will result in the best sound quality, there is technically nothing wrong with using a receiver as an amplifier only, as long as it has a multi-channel analog input. I have actually been using a similar setup for the past two years, although with different hardware. As Jack D Ripper pointed out, the reason you were having your issues is because your setup and configuration was incorrect. The volume should always be controlled by the preamp. When setting the Yamaha at constant high volume level and using the NAD to control the volume the Yamaha is constantly putting out a high level output, regardless of the volume setting on the NAD. This results in triggering the protection circuitry when there is excessive bass output.

The correct configuration is to set the receiver acting as the amp (your NAD) at a constant volume and then use the pre amp to control the volume. To set the NAD at the optimum volume setting, manually engage the speaker level test tones on the Yamaha and then turn the NAD's volume up until the output measures 70db. If you connected the speakers to the Yamaha the test tones should also measure at 70db (give or take depending on what your channel trim levels are set at). This is known as unity gain; the output of the NAD would be equal to the output of the Yamaha at any given volume. This is the only correct configuration that would result in valid real world results.

With this configuration in most situations the volume level where the protection circuitry kicks in would be much higher than most people would feel comfortable listening at. Of course there are a lot of variables that come into play (size of room, speaker sensitivity, etc...). But in most situations and in combination with speakers that are most likely to be paired with a receiver at this price point the receiver should be able to handle most of what you throw at it. The testing conducted by Kikkenit proves this. I the three real world tests (1, 3, and 5) that Kikkenit conducted the receiver drove SPLs of 100db or higher. 100db is by no means ear piercing, but at that price point very few will complain. If you want more volume then either get an amp (as you did), or get a subwoofer. Considering you don't have a subwoofer at all, the sub would have given you the best bang for your buck.

Also though some receivers may be rated down to a 4ohm load, few can truly drive 4ohm speakers to their full potential. With a receiver it is best to go with 8ohm speakers.

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post #75 of 119 Old 02-04-2014, 04:13 PM
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Well I tested the Pioneer 1121 with test #1 scenario only. I was able to turn the volume to maximum (+12) for several minutes without
any shutdown. The sound meter hit peaks of 108db and the top of the receiver only got warm over the heat sink @top center front.
The mcaac setup was impressive playing several type of pink/white? noise including standing waves and reverb.

It is a year older model (2011) than the 773, but has pretty much everything the Yamaha has except standby hdmi bypass.
I bought it new from newegg march 2012 for $420 in a closeout sale. It does have 1 more hdmi input, but only 1 hdmi out.
The power supply is 570watt vs 400watt so that does have a direct effect on amp output capabilities.

It did have a warning on the back not to use 4ohm speakers. Oops. Just like most brands 2 of the hdmi inputs had no button
on the remote control. I hate that. I am a poor judge of sound quality, but I swear it didn't sound as good as the Yamaha.
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post #76 of 119 Old 02-04-2014, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I've never meant to imply the Yamaha's as defective, I've tried to address it as an issue or problem. Only the first tech I talked to about my 765 told me it was defective.

I am using the incorrect terminology, I should have stated that I used the Yamaha as a component switch rather than a preamp. The other detail I left out is that I was using the NAD as my AM and FM tuner as it received the signal much better at my home, which is another reason I did not want to leave the volume at full. I also did not want to deal with using multiple remotes and tried to keep things simple even though I was using 2 receivers. The Harmony did a great job of that. I was trying to find the right setting on the Yamaha so I could get the proper levels of sound from my nad, which I never found.

Actually getting a sub would not have helped me at all not give me any bang for my buck. I was not turning up my volume to get more bass, I was turning up my volume so I could clearly hear dialog. The problem came when there were loud explosions. Nearly everyone who listened to my system though I had subs. I never felt the volumes were too loud. I'll have to check my settings but I believe I had already adjusted my center higher to hear better. I was able to get to a setting where it performed great 90% of the time. I actually had a sub hooked up at one time, it was a mid range sub and it was barely noticeable if the sub was on or off.

I understand that 4 ohm speakers are hard to drive, which is why I originally purchased the NAD, I was told that it would do the job fine, which it did. That is also why I never hooked them up to the Yamaha's, I don't think it will be able to handle them with the internal amp.
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post #77 of 119 Old 02-04-2014, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Well I tested the Pioneer 1121 with test #1 scenario only. I was able to turn the volume to maximum (+12) for several minutes without
any shutdown. The sound meter hit peaks of 108db and the top of the receiver only got warm over the heat sink @top center front.
The mcaac setup was impressive playing several type of pink/white? noise including standing waves and reverb.

It is a year older model (2011) than the 773, but has pretty much everything the Yamaha has except standby hdmi bypass.
I bought it new from newegg march 2012 for $420 in a closeout sale. It does have 1 more hdmi input, but only 1 hdmi out.
The power supply is 570watt vs 400watt so that does have a direct effect on amp output capabilities.

It did have a warning on the back not to use 4ohm speakers. Oops. Just like most brands 2 of the hdmi inputs had no button
on the remote control. I hate that. I am a poor judge of sound quality, but I swear it didn't sound as good as the Yamaha.

Wow, if it did not shutdown with speakers hooked up I doubt it would without speakers. The Yamaha does do a very good job of sounding good, especially at it's price point. Btw I don't think price point should have any correlation of a receiver shutting down without anything connected.
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post #78 of 119 Old 02-14-2014, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Did some testing today. same Iron Man3 clip. At 0 I was hitting peaks of about 110dB, went up to +10 and hit a peak of about 116dB and got a shutdown. Felt some really good shaking in my chair during the explosions. I think I should be fine now as I don't see myself needing to go above -10.

I did do some searching and found a few other people having problems with shutdowns at higher volume settings. I can feel the theater bug biting me again... May need to get a real subwoofer soon. Maybe I'll just have to have a open invitation for my neighbors to come over for movies so they don't have to notice in their home when I'm getting loud. And to think the developers told me these houses were very soundproof.....

I did change the settings a little hoping that I get a little more breathing room from the receiver. YPAO detected all speakers as large, I changed them all to small with exception to the front left and right. However for some reason the 773 thinks my woofers are out of phase when the 765 never thought that. I will have to look into that.

Testing was done with a old radio shack analog dB meter set at around listening position. Test tones produced about 80 dB from the center channel, and about 77 on all the rest..

Yamaha's protection system is not well documented. of the reports I saw Yamaha techs also suspected the unit was defective. I did see some techs request the users to disconnect the speakers, and test with shutdowns still happening and receiver declared defective by tech.
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post #79 of 119 Old 02-14-2014, 04:19 PM
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Well that is pretty loud. Good to hear. If yours is defective so is mine. We need someone else to
confirm the behavior. Doesn't need to be the exact same model. All the 6, 7 and 8 series use
the same power supply. Last night I cranked up music on my 2.1 setup. Sitting about 10' from the
speakers. Frankly 90db c weighted was as loud as I could stand. So the ability to play 100db large
and 110db small is plenty for me. No way I'm sending mine in for repair!

The lowest frequencies (40hz and lower) are the notes that really travel, vibrate and piss off the neighbors.
You do have very nice towers, but those frequencies below 30hz playing clean and flat are to die for.
Hope you can swing for a subwoofer some day. Just not three 15"er's. Damn! One 12" (800 watt) is plenty
for me in a pretty big room. I used to watch for the neighbors to leave, then really crank it when I was renting.

I just ordered the Dayton usb mic and I'm gonna run the room eq wizard on all three receivers and compare
xt32, ypao and mcacc. I'll start a new thread to report results. Settle it once and for all about bass eq for the
two rooms I have set up. And compare performance of 3 different subs (svs, hsu and ed).
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post #80 of 119 Old 02-15-2014, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the really weird thing is that it's not always consistent where it shuts down. Actually between me and you 3 receivers have already been found to do the same thing. 2 773's and 1 765. I didn't get the exact spl measurements from the 765 but I don't think it's a factor we need to consider since it's all external amplification and speaker sensitivity. Our concern is the amp itself going into protection. A few things you found do fall inline with the effect, the less high volume low frequency we drive through the 5 or 7 channels by setting the speaker to small the higher we can go in the volume setting without shutting down. Running more signal to the sub channel is fine since the receiver does not have a sub amp we don't run into issue overdriving in that channel. I was trying to find the clipping point of the receiver so I know what volume to exceed, so in our instance the clipping point is where we shutdown. So we need to be a little under that, so we will always be wasting the top end of our amp since we cant even allow the receiver to clip a little bit...

Sending it in probably wont help as I don't think there are any that wont shutdown.

Actually the only usefully tests will be 7 series or higher, since the 6 and below do not have pre-out the extreme high volumes are exceeding the capability of the amp and the shutdown is very expected. Form the other thread it looks like we can run up to about 1.2V on the pre-out and I think most amps are at max output with a little over 1V. As we found running up to 0 I get plenty volume during the rest of the movies. Even though most people wont use it we probably proven that a Yamaha RX receiver will not be able to drive most external amps to the max. The A20XX's and up should not have issues since the output is 2.8V and since most amps only need a bit over 1V to max, means that the receiver wont need to be near shutdown to drive the amps to max.

Yes, I've been taking a look at some subs, maybe it would be nice to run something from 40 and down. I don't really need it, however I'll pick one up if I find a good one at a great price.

I might have to look into a USB mic also, I've started measuring my system with my spl meter so some RTA software would really help with finding placement of speakers.
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post #81 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay... I've finally found a extremely reproducible situation. Looking at my old CD collection I found I have the Sheffield A2TB Test disk. Play Track 7 and 8 which is a 1Khz sinewave at -20 Dbfs and 0Dbfs I found the exact settings. Track 7 is -20 and track 8 is 0. Track 7 can play at max the whole time, which was what I expected. Track 8 gets interesting, While playing I can turn the volume up to +2 and it can stay there, I can let it finish track 7 and play track 8. However if I restart the track while it plays the receiver shuts down. Also while playing if I turn it up to +2.5 or higher it shuts down at some point.

Basically I suspect tone recorded at 0Dbfs can shutdown the receiver around +2 setting on receiver. There may be a little difference in the volume setting depending on speaker size and eq adjustments.
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post #82 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 10:47 AM
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I always use a hefty subwoofer when I want audio. That is why I never bought towers.
My 773 plays anything I want so loud without going into protection I am happy with it.
After reading other Yamaha threads I think it is designed this way on purpose.

If you buy the 1030 and above models the power supply is bigger and the sound & vision
bench tests show it has more watts per channel. You may want to upgrade. Probably
twice the price I paid though.
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post #83 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

I always use a hefty subwoofer when I want audio. That is why I never bought towers.
My 773 plays anything I want so loud without going into protection I am happy with it.
After reading other Yamaha threads I think it is designed this way on purpose.

If you buy the 1030 and above models the power supply is bigger and the sound & vision
bench tests show it has more watts per channel. You may want to upgrade. Probably
twice the price I paid though.

However that defeats the whole purpose of choosing Yamaha because it was the cheapest receiver that has pre outs and remote 12V triggers. Even the A series Yamaha's most likely wont handle my speakers. And I'm fine with power, if I really want more power I'll go Monoblocks that are in the 2-4kw range. I don't plan on spending big money for a receiver since it's constantly getting outdated. HDMI 2.0 is already here, 8K tv is around the corner and lifelike HD hologram is probably not far away. Now I have a standalone amp I'll just stick that route and keep getting cheap receivers that decode and switch. Being careful not hitting the limit I'm probably only loosing 1dB or 2dB. I'm already getting plenty loud!

I don't know about it being designed this way on purpose, if that were the case I would expect the techs to have a sheet that explained that to them and not have them have customers call in about the issue be told their receiver is defective and have to ship it and be without a receiver for a duration.....

The next thing I'll probably get is a sub. I'm really starting to lust after those 10hz feelings.
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Originally Posted by tony.tam View Post



The next thing I'll probably get is a sub. I'm really starting to lust after those 10hz feelings.

Dude! You're going to wonder what on earth you were doing all this time when you finally get a sub. It's MANDATORY for movies.
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So, if I understand you correctly, you are compensating for the hum put out by the NAD by overdriving the Yamaha, then complaining about the Yamaha? Hmmmmmmmmmm eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


My best advice is: "Don't do that!" ;-)

Well designed components will shut themselves down when overdriven ... who woulda thunk? wink.gif
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post #87 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 03:56 PM
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So, if I understand you correctly, you are compensating for the hum put out by the NAD by overdriving the Yamaha, then complaining about the Yamaha? Hmmmmmmmmmm eek.gifbiggrin.gif
Exactly. I told him from day 1 (starting in the 773 thread) that he was doing it wrong and having to turn the yamaha way too far up.
And he claims to live in an apartment where he can't play it that loud. I bought a big house and I still worry about my neighbors
getting mad. Even without the external amps. My testing proved that this receiver likes all speakers small with a .1 attached compared
to a bunch of large speakers. 5.1 internal only is super loud. 5.1 all external is insanely loud. I could barely stay in the room to read
the sound meter with earplugs and my thumbs pushing them in deeper. If I had towers I would use the external amps, but I don't need it.

I'm not saying the 773 is perfect, but for what I paid it is the best all around value. I could use a denon 4311 with a 780 watt power supply
and 11.2 capabilities instead. It doesn't find my laptop mp3 folders or have hdmi standby passthrough. The 773 doesn't have audyssey xt32,
but it sounds just as good to me and is easier to use/operate to me. At least I have the external rca out if I need it (change speakers).
Tony did at least bail on the NAD receiver.
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post #88 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post

Well designed components will shut themselves down when overdriven ... who woulda thunk? wink.gif

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think it was designed that way. That's one of the main reasons I made this thread. The worst part is that the part being over driven is not being used. And leaving the NAD full blast was not an option because I still used the AM/FM receiver with that and I do not want to listen to the radio at full blast.
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post #89 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 04:15 PM
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Tony, these are my towers. lol
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post #90 of 119 Old 02-21-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice, that's the HSU on the left, not sure about the other 2. I was thinking about heading up to Hsu to check out their subs one of these days....
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