Well it's official, the first pre/pro or receiver announced with HDMI 2.0. Will this change anyone's mind about getting it?
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24640711
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24640629
I doubt if half my posts are in this thread, given that there are only 1,000 or so posts in it, but I assume that was hyperbole on your part. I don't see my comments as 'negatives' but as 'realistic' and they are a counterpart to the fanboy enthusiasm that always seems to occur when Emotiva processors are being discussed. Nowhere was that fanboyism more rife than when people were discussing the dire UMC-1!
I don't want the XMC-1 to fail. I am an Emotiva enthusiast and own or have owned 11 of their products, all of which I was delighted with. But I am not a fanboy blinded by misplaced loyalty and I can clearly see that the litany of broken promises wrt to the XMC-1, and its apparent poor value, and its outdated feature set, and its place well behind the curve technologically come this fall ... all cause me to be less than enthusiastic about it.
I seem to have the dubious honour today of being insulted by you not once but twice, in consecutive posts. Are you bucking for the Insulter of the Year award or something?
Got that did you. So quick. And I call a big fat BS on your not wanting the XMC to fail. You've made it clear just about every other post of this whole thread.
Hahaha. I was waiting for the Pavlovian reaction where you have to use the word 'Onkyo' in a post when someone criticises Emo. For the record, I have no allegiance to Onkyo, although I have had good experiences with three of them in a row, and my next unit is not likely to be an Onkyo if, as it seems, they may be abandoning Audyssey.Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24640936
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24640711
Got that did you. So quick. And I call a big fat BS on your not wanting the XMC to fail. You've made it clear just about every other post of this whole thread.
+ 1,000,000
It seems as if Keith is trying to divert attention away from Onkyo's fiascoes. He is a fanboy you know.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24640702
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Please, there is no way I can realistically do this, and anyone saying they are doing this with every processor they've ever heard is kidding themselves and anyone else here. The last thing I am is biased by what I see, I could give a crap less about brand, price or any other forum crap. I evaluate potential processors by setting them up for the best performance in my room and then evaluating a mix of material that I've become VERY familiar with over the years. Stuff I use all the time for demos and testing. And these tests are always done at the same reference levels verified by multiple instruments. But no I am not doing any instantaneous switching and don't feel the need to jump through those hoops. You putting this type of ridiculous types of testing criteria to back up your assertion that all components essentially sound the same speaks volume about your experience with different equipment. And I am not one that subscribes to microscopic differences, I think that fleeting pursuit is ridiculous at best. I am not going to add cost no object stuff to my room for some minuscule difference as so many seem to do. If I don't hear clear benefits there is no point in trying to continue to squeeze more. So if I say that I'm hearing a clear difference in something, it is VERY clear. The audiophile's that get down into the crazy little differences are insane, and I don't subscribe to that insanity (and clearly you don't either).
So, sighted evaluations then. Good job you don't work in the pharms industry! It is beyond absurd for you to claim that you are the one person in the world who can control human cognitive bias, so the rest of the paragraph, hinging as it does on that statement, isn't worthy of comment IMO.
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Why are any of us eating crow? I didn't say there WOULDN'T be any ATMOS products at this CEDIA, just that nothing has been announced yet. I think it would be FABULOUS if there were some ATMOS AVRs and processors at CEDIA (I'll be there, will you??) but that doesn't mean they'll sound great or be "the hyperchange" you're hoping for. CEDIA is all about making everything sound like the next best thing, that is their job last time I checked.
So you don't think that the next step - the only step of significance for almost a decade wrt to cinema sound - is all that big a deal?
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And I love how people say that one thing shouldn't have a "sound". EVERYTHING has a "SOUND" and if you think it doesn't what the hell are you comparing it against?? Do you compare it to the master in the recording studio directly with the levels matched to .05 dB?? How do you know when one thing has a "Sound" compared to the other that doesn't??? I always love people that say they don't want a sound and that something sounds transparent, I'd love to hear a great explanation of how that is figured out, especially from someone that obviously cares about measurements.
You believe amplifiers, for example, have a sound? And that they should have a sound? A sound of their own? I am flabbergasted.
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It is like you're on a holy crusade to bash both Emotiva and the XMC like your families lives depend on it which I find completely baffling.
I guess you have missed all the posts where I praise Emotiva for their amplifiers and their (former) speaker range? And the posts where I remark that I have owned 11 different Emo products? Mind you, if you believe that half my posts on AVS are in this sole thread, that would explain it
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You also seem to think DIRAC can't be much better than XT32 but I've spoken with many audio engineers that have ACTUALLY COMPARED the two and have had nothing but great things to say about DIRAC. But I suppose you think the difference in EQ systems is all microscopic at best as well right?
Utter hogwash. You have spoken to NOBODY who has experienced Emotiva's version of Dirac. Come on, Kris, keep the conversation real. Next you'll be telling me you' ve seen nearly every Atmos movie release! And your supposition is as ludicrous as the claim before it - you think I spent countless hours compiling a massive reference work on Audyssey because I think that REQ makes microscopic differences. Really.
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And while I haven't seen EVERY movie mastered in ATMOS, I've seen the majority of the big productions since I see most the tentpole and big budget movies at the same two theaters and both are ATMOS equipped.
So you didn't see 15 Atmos movies in 30 days over Christmas? Darn it. When you said you'd seen nearly every Atmos movie released, I thought you were being serious! How many of that list I posted have you actually seen? Nearly every one? Most? Some? A few?
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I heard how 7.1 would revolutionize home theater audio, then it was DSX and then all the flavors of Dolby and DTS with height and width. I've heard them all in my room and demo rooms. I've had a 7.1 system and a 5.1 system. I've had a DSX setup and I've tried height and width channels. In my room they didn't leave enough impression to keep them. The best I heard was DSX with the width channels. Height channels have NEVER done anything for me in countless demos. And I think you underestimate channel based systems. Do you really think object based is going to just take everything to a new level? The Auro setups I've heard use A LOT of channels and I'm sure a lot of people were very impressed, but again it didn't sound any more engaging than what I achieve in a well setup room with excellent acoustics.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24640781
Kbarnes. Please don't take most of my posts here the wrong way. Forums are awful for tone and everyone assumes the other person is yelling at them or heckling. As I mentioned before I've really enjoyed a lot of your contributions here. Take this stuff as if we met at CEDIA and I was like "dude! what is up with the constant bashing on the XMC thread?! Did Big Dan come over and steal your kitten or something??" with an obvious grin on my face giving you crap. I just fine it amusing that every time I come check out where this thread is I find more and more posts of the same thing over and over again. XMC is outdated, Emotiva is late again, this product doesn't compete, wait until later this year.........yikes.
Can you give examples of great and poor companies that have resolved, not tried and failed, issues through firmware and hardware updates? Also what specific products were you thinking about whose real improvements lay in DSP modes that could have been addressed with a firmware update?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24640977
I liked the Integra 80.3 when I used it. One of the better lower priced pre-pros I've used. But every manufacturer has their issues, some worse than others. What separates the great companies from the poor ones are the ones that try their best to fix the issues with hardware and firmware updates. I hate it when manufacturers just wait until the next model to fix stuff that should have been resolved with the previous model. I also hate companies that launch a new product with DSP modes as the only real improvement but those same modes could have been added with a firmware update to the previous model.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24641808
I always think that when all that someone can come back with is a personal insult to another member that they have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion, that they reveal their true nature and that they become unworthy of further interaction, but thanks for at least recognising that I am a quick thinker.
Your post above is somewhat strange. Why one earth would I "want the XMC-1 to fail"? I have no vested interest in a competitor's products and I have already said many times that I have zero brand loyalty to any particular manufacturer. I am simply pointing out facts that the Emo fanboy contingent don't like - see the flurry of TUs for your insulting posts?
I expect when the XMC-1 is eventually released we will see the usual flurry of subjective, worthless, sighted 'evaluations' describijng the 'night and day differences' that even the girlfriend in the kitchen can hear.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24641832
Why are you mentioning DSPs? Atmos isn't a DSP.
Why do you keep on mentioning Auro?
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So, sighted evaluations then. Good job you don't work in the pharms industry! It is beyond absurd for you to claim that you are the one person in the world who can control human cognitive bias, so the rest of the paragraph, hinging as it does on that statement, isn't worthy of comment IMO.
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You believe amplifiers, for example, have a sound? And that they should have a sound? A sound of their own? I am flabbergasted.
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I guess you have missed all the posts where I praise Emotiva for their amplifiers and their (former) speaker range? And the posts where I remark that I have owned 11 different Emo products? Mind you, if you believe that half my posts on AVS are in this sole thread, that would explain it
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Utter hogwash. You have spoken to NOBODY who has experienced Emotiva's version of Dirac. Come on, Kris, keep the conversation real. Next you'll be telling me you' ve seen nearly every Atmos movie release! And your supposition is as ludicrous as the claim before it - you think I spent countless hours compiling a massive reference work on Audyssey because I think that REQ makes microscopic differences. Really.
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So you didn't see 15 Atmos movies in 30 days over Christmas? Darn it. When you said you'd seen nearly every Atmos movie released, I thought you were being serious! How many of that list I posted have you actually seen? Nearly every one? Most? Some? A few?
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I try very hard to never insult anyone or to make a personal attack on them, but I don't always succeed. My personality type is that I give as good as I get and I treat others the way they treat me so I too can descend into unworthy posts sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642089
Can you give examples of great and poor companies that have resolved, not tried and failed, issues through firmware and hardware updates? Also what specific products were you thinking about whose real improvements lay in DSP modes that could have been addressed with a firmware update?
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Originally Posted by rcohen /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642103
I spent last weekend experimenting with Dirac Live demo for PC. I also have an Audyssey Pro XT32 setup.
I really liked the results with Dirac. It sounded good (and measured good with REW). Unfortunately, I didn't take before measurements with XT32.
The clear advantage of Dirac was that the measurements, tweaking, and curve comparison was MUCH faster than with Audyssey Pro.
I was able to experiment with lots of subtle changes, and AB compare with a variety of music and video.
A 20 minute experiment with Audyssey Pro would take 1-2 minutes with Dirac, and Audyssey Pro doesn't allow AB comparisons.
Also, the UI is nicer, and it gives you much finer and more convenient control with target curves.
I can't say for sure whether the nice results were just due to the iteration speed and UI, the Dirac algorithm, or both.
I suspect both.
Specifically, the differences were:
1) Transients sounded tighter (treble and bass).
2) It removed a "tunnel" sound coming from my untreated room.
3) It gave me fine control over frequency balance to fit to my taste.
4) It removed some ambience, which is negative in some cases, but worth it overall.
Other notes:
1) I was using an EMC8000 mic I had on hand, and got terrible results, with 1 calibration file I found online, but good results with another. I have a UMIK-1 on order.
2) I got bad results before using a mic stand.
3) Dirac doesn't seem to interact well with Audyssey DSX. The combination sounded confusing and fatiguing.
I don't want to go back.
I'm not sure whether to go for the Dirac software or the XMC-1.
I wish there was a reasonably priced 11.2 channel Dirac option.
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Originally Posted by runninkyle17 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642316
Anthem has done a decent job with upgradeable hardware, but they have only done it with the D2v. The only D2 I believe was only 5.1 capable and had different hardware that was upgraded in the D2v. Nevertheless, the D2v is a huge exception. While there have been some firmware issues with the D2v Anthem has continued decent support and is pretty good about helping out with problems
that sounds like a real reason for the delay...translates to me as a $$ issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcuslaw /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24638895
I can't recall the source, but wasn't it mentioned in a podcast or in the Lounge that Lonnie and his team and the Dirac engineers were attempting to "work out differences" with the Dirac folks wanting to scale back Dirac features and Lonnie pushing for more?
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Originally Posted by dwaleke /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/990#post_24640132
Well one goal with this platform was the ability to upgrade features and functionality both via software and hardware.
They may need additional processing capability to add new features via software in the future. I'd hate to have to replace the DSP because the one chosen today is not powerful enough for future features.
If you have to replace hardware for every feature upgrade that takes away from the XMC-1 appeal.
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24643414
that sounds like a real reason for the delay...translates to me as a $$ issue.
Isn't Dirac the defining feature of the XMC-1?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642580
Not sure this is the right place for charts: this probably belongs more in the REW/HDMI thread or "Dirac Live with Stereo" thread on the $20K+ forum if you're going that route, since this isn't directly related to the XMC-1's version of Dirac as such, and your post is going to get lost in the pro/anti-Emotiva bickering that drives this thread LOL. However, it would be great if you could post some of those REW results for L+Subs and R+Subs frequency response, with and without Dirac, and L/R+Subs waterfall or spectrograms. Some ETC Impulse Response charts with and without Dirac in the mix for one of your speakers would also be very useful.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24640769
I always take modular designs with a grain of salt. It just never seems to pan out for the manufacturer or customers. But hopefully Emotiva will learn from their past and deliver something worthwhile this time around.
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Originally Posted by petew /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24644853
I refer to the modularity more in the sense of well defined electrical and data interfaces between subsystems rather than board swapping modularity. In the case of the XMC-1, what's the point of swapping out anything but the HDMI board? If Atmos becomes relevant, we'll need more than nine channels and drilling holes in the iron for more connectors in a non starter. The existing DSP engine can handle anything that a nine channel unit will need.
But if Emotiva can define and standardize the logic and control of the subsystems than they'll be ahead of the game on their next processor. If some subsystems are reusable in newer products, that's great. If new HDMI 2.0 chips come out and Emotive can use their proprietary glue to make them compatible with the existing architecture, the design of new boards, and especially firmware, will be easier
Look at the extra connectors on the power supply board. Two free digital supplies and four analog make for some flexibility on future hardware.
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Originally Posted by petew /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24645099
Who knows, Atmos might be possible. It is purported to bring benefits to 7 channel systems too. It'd probably mean swapping out the DSP board set...I think the Dolby and DTS code is mask programmed onto the chip and would require new silicon to bring Atmos to the table.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642127
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24641808
I always think that when all that someone can come back with is a personal insult to another member that they have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion, that they reveal their true nature and that they become unworthy of further interaction, but thanks for at least recognising that I am a quick thinker.
Your post above is somewhat strange. Why one earth would I "want the XMC-1 to fail"? I have no vested interest in a competitor's products and I have already said many times that I have zero brand loyalty to any particular manufacturer. I am simply pointing out facts that the Emo fanboy contingent don't like - see the flurry of TUs for your insulting posts?
I expect when the XMC-1 is eventually released we will see the usual flurry of subjective, worthless, sighted 'evaluations' describijng the 'night and day differences' that even the girlfriend in the kitchen can hear.
Fine take it as you want, I personally could care less. And I don't know why you would want the XMC to fail, but you sure take a lot of time out of the day posting about it and I've yet to see a positive or even middle of the line comment. And owning other Emotiva products doesn't get you off the hook for literally flooding a thread with doom and gloom for a product you know nothing about and have zero experience with. And you should think about the anti-fanboy comments your making here considering how fan boyish your coming off for ATMOS considering you've never heard it. But I'm sure when it is released you'll go on a flurry of "subjective, worthless, sighted 'evaluations' describijng the 'night and day differences' that even the girlfriend in the kitchen can hear". After all CEDIA said it was going to be a new revolution in audio.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering /t/1515163/emotiva-xmc-1-pre-pro/1020#post_24642183
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Because Auro is the closest thing to Atmos on the market at the moment and is trying to achieve nearly the same thing. I've never said Atmos = Auro, but feel free to keep stretching my words.
Apart from one being channel-based (the past) and one being object-based (the future) you mean? I am not stretching your words - I am pointing out that I am talking about Atmos so your bringing Auro into the discussion is irrelevant and pointless.
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So, sighted evaluations then. Good job you don't work in the pharms industry! It is beyond absurd for you to claim that you are the one person in the world who can control human cognitive bias, so the rest of the paragraph, hinging as it does on that statement, isn't worthy of comment IMO.
Not saying I'm the one person that can, just that I don't feel I need to jump through those hoops to compare the sonics of two products like that. Would it be ideal? Absolutely, but it isn't practical and I'm more than comfortable with my ability to not play into preconceived notions or product bias. But you can continue to condemn me on this if it makes you feel better, I have pretty thick skin.
It is not possible for human bejngs to ignore cognitive bias. There are hundreds of good articles on the Internet explaining why. Because of this impossibility, sighted evaluations are worthless, which is why every industry which requires to test A agaist B does not use them (food, pharms, wine etc). Only the 'hi-fi' industry clings to sighted evaluations. I wonder why...
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You believe amplifiers, for example, have a sound? And that they should have a sound? A sound of their own? I am flabbergasted.
Ah, the age old amplifier argument. You really want to stir that pot. The old fallback to start pages of arguments. I think a poorly designed amplifier can hurt the sonics. I think an amp driven outside of its specs can have a sound. I am an acoustics engineer by trade, I realize that electrical designs aren't all the same. But I think when driven within their limits most amplifiers are close enough that it doesn't become much of an issue, but if people want to shoot for the little things, more power to them. I believe in headroom (just like with subs). I would rather have an amp that won't even break a sweat even with the most demanding load. I believe in bench measurements for amps and competent design. But I don't generally subscribe to the crazy amp arguments. Again, comments like this show how very little you know me.
Sorry - you said before that everything has a sound. You may have even said it in CAPS. Now you are saying that amps (working within their design parameters, not broken, not clipping) are "close enough that it doesn't become much of an issue". Thanks for the clarification that everything does NOT have a sound of its own.
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Utter hogwash. You have spoken to NOBODY who has experienced Emotiva's version of Dirac. Come on, Kris, keep the conversation real. Next you'll be telling me you' ve seen nearly every Atmos movie release! And your supposition is as ludicrous as the claim before it - you think I spent countless hours compiling a massive reference work on Audyssey because I think that REQ makes microscopic differences. Really.
I'm sorry, please point to where I said I talked to someone that experienced the XMC. I said I've talked to audio engineers that have compared DIRAC and Audyssey. We have yet to see how DIRAC is implemented in the XMC but it is something I'm curious about (as I've mentioned before). I am aware that there are levels to DIRAC but I've heard comments about many different levels of implementation including the full capabilities down to the limited ones. So I assume that the XMC will fall somewhere within the range.
You said that you had spoken to many people who had compared Dirac with Audyssey XT32. Since nobody currently knows how Emotiva will implement Dirac in the XMC-1, what was the point of your comment if not to suggest that the version of Dirac in the XMC-1 will be somehow comparable to the version that these people you have spoken to have heard and compared? Fact is, it may be brilliant or it may be average. Nobody knows yet. AFAIK Emotiva have said zip about their version of Dirac, even at this late stage.
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So you didn't see 15 Atmos movies in 30 days over Christmas? Darn it. When you said you'd seen nearly every Atmos movie released, I thought you were being serious! How many of that list I posted have you actually seen? Nearly every one? Most? Some? A few?
Ouch, you got me there. I feel so bad about saying that I've seen the majority of the major ATMOS releases without point out exactly which ones or how many. I must be a liar about everything, you got me. :roll eyes: Obviously I'd need to see every one of them to be able to comment on my experience with ATMOS sound. I take it since you feel so strongly about it you've seen all of them? Or how many is it, one? a few? any????
Sorry - when someone says they have seen "nearly every Atmos movie released" I take that to mean they have seen nearly every Atmos movie released. My bad.
How many I have seen or not seen is irrelevant - it was not me making any claims to have seen "nearly every one released". I assume the claim was made to add credibility to the points surrounding the claim, but since the claim seems to have been false, it has had the opposite effect to the intention.
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I try very hard to never insult anyone or to make a personal attack on them, but I don't always succeed. My personality type is that I give as good as I get and I treat others the way they treat me so I too can descend into unworthy posts sometimes.
I generally refrain from these types of arguments as well, but you're overwhelming ability to beat a dead horse on a daily basis is incredible. How the mods have even let it continue amazes me. What purpose does your constant rhetoric serve?? What is your end agenda??
No agenda here. You seem to be saying that there should be a limit on the number of posts I can make criticising the XMC-1 but you don't mention a limit on the number of posts praising it. What is your end agenda?