Biamping before or after MCACC - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 02-03-2014, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Should MCACC on the LX77 be done before or after bi amping has been done ie; - connected the front speakers and additional amplifier?

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post #2 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 01:01 AM
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Reassign the speaker outputs before running the room correction.
The receiver will not autodetect bi-amping.
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post #3 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply.

 

I will be biamping the front speakers and I will be using the amplifier on the Yamaha RX-V2095 (by pulling out the decoupling pins marked in Red at the rear of the Yamaha as below

 

 

 

and connecting the Pre-Out L & R on the RX-V2095 to the Pre Out Front L & R on the LX-77. I assume that I connect the Main Speakers L&R to the Pioneer?

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post #4 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codyoz View Post

and connecting the Pre-Out L & R on the RX-V2095 to the Pre Out Front L & R on the LX-77.
I assume that I connect the Main Speakers L&R to the Pioneer?
This is wrong. Don't do that. Let's back up. Several issues here. Bi-amping almost any speaker from a receiver is not a good idea. What front speakers are you using? And sending the signal path through two preamps is a bad idea. It usually induces undesirable noise levels. And bi-amping with amplifiers that are different types (class d & class a/b) and different power are a bad idea also. And how many speakers do you plan the connect to the Pioneer?
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post #5 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 01:38 PM
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Passive biamplification doesn't help anything. It is a waste of time and wire. I recommend you not do it.
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post #6 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I have made a couple of mistakes. Let me clarify, I have a pair of Klipsch La Scalas (Front L&R), a pair of Elac FS 68's (Front wide L&R), a pair of Paradigm Atoms (Surround L&R) a Paradigm PS1200 Subwoofer and a Paradigm PS80 Subwoofer. I would like to bi-amp the Elac's (into the Pioneer) and I would like to use the amplifier section on the Yamaha. To make it easier I have drawn the connections along with numbered references in the diagram as below.

 

 

I would like to use the amplifier section on the Yamaha RX-V2095 and connect it to the Pioneer LK-77. I have the following questions

 

1. Can this be done and would it provide any benefit?

2. If so, do I connect from the LX-77 Front Pre Out (L&R) to the V2095 Main In (L&R)

3. Do I connect my La Scalas to the Pioneer or the Yamaha?

 

Thanks for the advice so far.

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post #7 of 17 Old 02-04-2014, 11:13 PM
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Nice diagram. Here is a link to the specs/instructions to the Elan speakers.
They spec pretty much normal with most speakers. It says bi-wire capable,
not bi-amping. Big difference. All kinds of speakers come with dual binding posts
with a metal jumper bridging that connection. I even have dirt cheap bookshelf
speakers that have those. It is just a sales hype 99% of the time. Just leave the
jumper on and run a decent thick copper speaker wire to the speaker from the
receiver binding posts and you are good. I use cheap 12 gauge, but you don't
need that thick, except for long runs.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wildwestelectronics/fs68brochure.pdf

To use the amps in the other receiver run a rca cable similar to the subwoofer
cable from the plugs just to the right of the subwoofer outputs. Those are line
level outputs to bypass the internal amps for every possible channel if you desire.

Connecting a rca from the main receiver speaker out (pioneer) to the main in of the other amp
(Yamaha)would make the speaker binding post of the other receiver (Yamaha) hot with that speaker output.
So front left preout to left main in and then binding post front left of that receiver (Yamaha) is active.
Just don't try to connect speaker wires from 2 different receivers to one speaker.

So instead of #1 & 2 in your picture use the rca preout next to the garbage can with the X through it.
Don't use both at the same time even though both are active (hot).
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post #8 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your help so far it has been much appreciated. I have redone my diagram and followed your instructions regarding the Elac FS 68's.

 

However, for the record, at the rear of the Elac's it clearly states "for Bi-Wiring/Bi-Amping Remove Bridges" as I said I will not worry about bi amping these speakers.

 

 

 

Below is the redone diagram

 


A and B go from the Pioneer Front L&R Pre Out to A and B on the Yamaha L&R Main In.

The La Scalas ( 1, 2,3 & 4) get connected to the Yamaha L&R Front Speakers. 

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post #9 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 02:21 AM
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Yes now you have it. And it is true that any speaker with a jumper can be passive bi-amped.
Glad that you are not going to try that. Most receivers come with that feature. Even on the receiver
it is just a sales ploy and has no positive effect in most cases. A few swear by it.

By using a different amplifier (receiver) to drive the main speakers will put less strain (heat) on the main receiver.
Now the only issue is figuring out what volume to set the secondary at. And once you do get everything
connected and calibrated rerun the room correction software on the main receiver one more time.

Post #74 in another thread describes how to do this on a NAD receiver in a similar situation.
I have never actually tried it. So follow these instructions and let me know how it works.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514115/yamaha-recievers-that-shutdown-during-passages-with-heavy-bass-might-be-the-entire-product-line/60#post_24311070
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post #10 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks you for the reply -  again!.

 

After reading the post, as per your suggestion, it seems that this person has a Yamaha receiver and a NAD receiver and that he wants to - decouple the NAD - and use the amplifier section on the NAD and control his system overall using the Yamaha. In my case - decoupling the Yamaha and using the Pioneer to control the system overall - I am going to assume that setting the volume control on the Yamaha to "full" and then controlling all the speakers volume via the volume control on the Pioneer is not the recommended / suggested way to go?

 

If that is the case I will do it by trial and error and see what sort of a result I get.

 

Again @kikkenit2 thank you very much for your kind and detailed assistance.   

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post #11 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 05:15 AM
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Glad to help. Forgot to mention one thing. Once you get the secondary receiver volume set at the proper/desired
level and run the room correction software, don't keep changing the volume on secondary receiver.
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post #12 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Set this up last night. After decoupling the Yamaha and selecting Speakers A on the front panel, no adjustment to the volume control was needed. In fact changing it made no difference at all. Will continue with testing and listing over the next few days.

 

Again, as usual, thanks you for the help.

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post #13 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 07:26 PM
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Cool.
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post #14 of 17 Old 02-05-2014, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codyoz View Post

Thanks you for the reply -  again!.

After reading the post, as per your suggestion, it seems that this person has a Yamaha receiver and a NAD receiver and that he wants to - decouple the NAD - and use the amplifier section on the NAD and control his system overall using the Yamaha. In my case - decoupling the Yamaha and using the Pioneer to control the system overall - I am going to assume that setting the volume control on the Yamaha to "full" and then controlling all the speakers volume via the volume control on the Pioneer is not the recommended / suggested way to go?

If that is the case I will do it by trial and error and see what sort of a result I get.

Again @kikkenit2
 thank you very much for your kind and detailed assistance.   

It depends on what you want to accomplish. It appears the standard practice is to leave the second receiver, one the speaker is connected to at a set volume and use the first receiver where all the components are connected to act as the volume control. If you do that just make sure your components are only connected to a single receiver. If you need more inputs you will need to control the volume with the receiver connected to the speakers. Your setup will probably work better than mine. I just happened to get unlucky that the Yamaha's cant run full volume in all conditions. I've never seen issues with other receivers doing this with no speakers connected. But if you do try things out please post your results so others can learn from it.
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post #15 of 17 Old 02-06-2014, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Whether I set the Volume control to minimum or maximum, on the Yamaha RX-V2095 (that I am using as the front speakers amplifier) it makes no difference. Volume is controlled by the Pioneer LX-77.

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post #16 of 17 Old 02-06-2014, 06:12 AM
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Hi Cody, sorry I missed a few facts. And rechecked your diagram. I don't know the 2095 well enough, however it appears that then way you have it hooked up the volume control is bypassed on your Yamaha as you mentioned. It seems to turn it into a pure amp mode.
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post #17 of 17 Old 02-06-2014, 06:21 AM
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Normally I would re-run MCACC to assure the trims are set properly since the new amp's gain may be different than the built-in amp. There is also the possibility of changing the delay/phase if the new amp changes the output polarity (some amps invert the signal at the output relative to the input). I would not expect FR to change unless one of the amps had trouble driving your speakers (unlikely in this case). There may be run-to-run variation, however, whether you add an amp or not.

I am not a fan of passive bi-amping as implemented in AVRs but that's a different discussion and never seems to matter in the end anyway. Do what you like.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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