Why doesn't Pioneer receivers use a sub eq? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

At the Pioneer open house last June, Chris Walker ('Walkamo' at AVS) said that they were going to address some of the major criticisms of MCACC in the upcoming year with a newer version of their room correction technology, which he was going to demonstrate at their next open house (yes, he was planning a year ahead). One obvious guess is that they're finally going to address the critical low frequency range, at least more than they currently do with their Standing Wave control.

hi sanjay, while I wasn't at the open house, but Chris has told me about the upgrade. it will be welcome news to Pioneer enthusiasts.

Steve
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post #122 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I suspect your conclusion may be correct.

it was starting to look that way. Block solves it wink.gif
btw - thanks to you & others for several thumbs ups smile.gif

Steve
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post #123 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The cost part can be reasonable. REW is free and a good individually calibrated mic is about $100. I picked up a used Behringer DSP1124P on eBay for $50 - perfect condition.  But you are right on the money when you say it takes more effort and that most people wouldn’t even consider it. 

The mini dsp adds another $100+. For an enthusiast, maybe spending $200 isn't a big deal, but for a typical pioneer purchaser who spent $500 for a receiver, asking them to spend another $200 would be.
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post #124 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

hi sanjay, while I wasn't at the open house, but Chris has told me about the upgrade. it will be welcome news to Pioneer enthusiasts.

Do you know and are you at liberty to answer, will this forthcoming upgrade be backward compatible with previous models? A firmware upgrade with the "new" functionality is what I have in mind. Say for example SC-6x and SC-7x models.
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post #125 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The cost part can be reasonable. REW is free and a good individually calibrated mic is about $100. I picked up a used Behringer DSP1124P on eBay for $50 - perfect condition.  But you are right on the money when you say it takes more effort and that most people wouldn’t even consider it. 

The mini dsp adds another $100+. For an enthusiast, maybe spending $200 isn't a big deal, but for a typical pioneer purchaser who spent $500 for a receiver, asking them to spend another $200 would be.

 

Yes, it is all relative I guess. Would the $500 AVR buyer be going down the route of attempting extreme optimisation of bass?  Not sure. I was thinking more in terms of the enthusiast who is seeking the best possible performance from the AVR, speakers and sub (and room) that he has. I think this brings us back neatly to the topic - the 'typical purchaser' is much more likely to rely on the automated room EQ solution that comes with his AVR; the enthusiast is more likely to want to go the extra mile with measuring equipment and additional optimisation. This is why it is important that the typical purchaser chooses an AVR that has an effective REQ system in it. IMO, that excludes systems which do not EQ the most important part of the spectrum (from an EQ POV) which is the bass region.

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post #126 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dbrown3611 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

hi sanjay, while I wasn't at the open house, but Chris has told me about the upgrade. it will be welcome news to Pioneer enthusiasts.

Do you know and are you at liberty to answer, will this forthcoming upgrade be backward compatible with previous models? A firmware upgrade with the "new" functionality is what I have in mind. Say for example SC-6x and SC-7x models.

 

I’d guess that it would be extremely unlikely. Notwithstanding hardware issues which may prevent it, it would be a retrograde marketing step. Far better, for sales and profits, that users were encouraged to upgrade to the new units in order to gain the new improvements.

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post #127 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:16 AM
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And that information from a marketing bloke. smile.gif
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post #128 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure most don't pick an AVR strictly on its eq software. I know I didn't pick my Onkyo because of that. Sure I wanted it because of the XT32 also,but there were other variables also. I look at Pioneer many times,and for the most part,their advertising is all about the Class D amp and Apple Airplay. I don't use apple products and I have amps. Pioneer is a cool looking AVR,but isn't for me. It just sounds like your cutting off your nose to spite your face.. If I listen to my system with Audyssey xt32 turned off,bass is bloated and everything is untamed. My girlfriend could immediately tell the difference. The 2 software programs for yamaha and pioneer are nothing more than something tacted on. Why don't they eq subs? Audyssey is a stand alone company that sells their licenses to Onkyo,Denon,Marantz and others. Have you even owned anything other than Pioneer? I've owned a Pioneer. Been Onkyo the last 2 times. I paid $765 for a new 818 with xt32.. Getting xt32 at that price is unheard of and a no brainer along with spotify and everything else I wanted..
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post #129 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


It seems odd than anyone would cling tenaciously to a position that people cannot hear/distinguish sounds in the 30Hz to 100Hz region.

Yes strange indeed and not what I have experienced in reality.

I use the PEQ in JRiver 18 and one of my EQ points is a 6dB 55hz peak I want to bring down. With JRiver's PEQ you can turn off or on each EQ point individual by itself by ticking or un ticking it's box. Useful for seeing the effect each EQ has and whether I like the difference or not. I mean I'm not going to keep a EQ point where I can't hear an a improvement from it.

And my -6dB at 55hz is one that makes a big difference. It removes an overpowering boom that smears detail and instead makes the bass sound tighter and more detailed.
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post #130 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


It seems odd than anyone would cling tenaciously to a position that people cannot hear/distinguish sounds in the 30Hz to 100Hz region.
100hz??
Show me where I said that
Stop your silly exaggerating.
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post #131 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I use Jriver 19,I'll have to try that. I knew you could do that,just didn't give it a second thought. I know some purists think any kind of eq'ing is taboo.. People like what they want,there is no perfect formula for it. Sound is all over the place,it is impossible for it to ever be perfect for every person. FMV is just making excuses up for his Pioneer,Pioneer's are nice,but the whole deal with receivers are not one has everything on it. If some company got smart and did it all,that would be the go to receiver,but they don't. If Pioneer did spotify and has XT32 on it,I'd own one!
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post #132 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


They did not choose 80Hz because below that frequency the average person could not readily hear bass notes, as you keep asserting.
I know what localization means and I never said that people can't hear below 80hz. Go back and re read please... or take reading lessons.

ONCE AGAIN, localizing has a lot more to do than just with frequency, otherwise there would be no such thing as a ventriloquist
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post #133 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

100hz??
Show me where I said that
Stop your silly exaggerating.

Many people cross their subs that high... or even higher. So it is relevant.
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post #134 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Many people cross their subs that high... or even higher. So it is relevant.
YES. That was my point a while back, but it seems people are having trouble reading.
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post #135 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I never said that people can't hear below 80hz. Go back and re read please... or take reading lessons.

ok....
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Well... I would argue that the REAL job of a subwoofer is to produce the FEEL more than the sound. That's actually what they WERE originally for (before the world started taking them out of context anyway). They don't call it the Low Frequency EFFECTS channel just for the heck of it.

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Well, I would agree that there is a deficiency but I don't agree with your reasoning. Worrying about peaks and such at 20 or even 40 hz is a bunch of fluff.... but it does hurt Pioneer because of threads like this.

The average human ear simply can not distinguish the difference that low. One of the reasons 80hz was chosen as the magic number for THX was that it could not only be felt, but it was about the lowest you could go for the average human ear to easily distinguish. Frequencies much below that (20...30... 35...) were not built so much to be heard at all really. They were built to be FELT.


So given that we can also hear as well as feel, say, 55hz... and considering many people do run their subs to 100hz or even higher... wouldn't you agree that it would be advantageous for users to be able to EQ their sub channels?
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post #136 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 01:01 PM
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And that information from a marketing bloke. smile.gif

and a very nice guy at that smile.gif I've met and talked with him quite a few times.

Steve
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post #137 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

ok....wouldn't you agree that it would be advantageous for users to be able to EQ their sub channels?

At 55?
Not really.
I saw very little advantage at corrections that low with my audyssey. It didn't make a lot of sense spending timing tuning that low. Granted, I don't like hearing 'boomy' bass, but those corrections start quite a bit higher.
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post #138 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

At 55?
Not really.
I saw very little advantage at corrections that low with my audyssey. It didn't make a lot of sense spending timing tuning that low. Granted, I don't like hearing 'boomy' bass, but those corrections start quite a bit higher.

Umm... even a big peak at 40hz can cause one note boomy bass.

Interestingly just now I was looking at one of my last room measurements and noticed the bass was gradually rolling off a bit early so I thought I would just see what a bit of a PEQ boost at 30hz would sound like.



The purple trace is with a +4dB 30hz Q3. A bit more listening to some jazz tracks with some nice double bass ended up with me adjusting that to +3.5dB at 35hz. I didn't take another measurement after that small change but things diffidently sound better with it there. The double bass is more prominent and overall everything has a richer fuller sound.

And this is typically how I work with PEQ. One problematic area at a time and then I evaluate each change by itself with how it affects the music I listen to. If I like it I keep it. Or if I don't notice the difference or think things sound worse for the change then I don't keep it. Periodically I go back to some earlier adjustments and re-evaluate those as well. Indeed the graph line isn't the be-all and end-all but rather just gives me a yardstick to aim for.

My -6 55hz and +3.5 35hz and +4 77hz EQ is certainly audible.

.
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post #139 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post


And this is typically how I work with PEQ. One problematic area at a time and then I evaluate each change by itself with how it affects the music I listen to.

.
And there it is right there. You like to tinker.

That's okay. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If you're this kind of person then I can surely see why the lack of low end correction would be a problem.
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post #140 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

That's okay. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If you're this kind of person then I can surely see why the lack of low end correction would be a problem.

I like to think of it as that I want to get the best possible value out of the money I have spent on my hifi. I wouldn't want to spend a fortune on speakers that were flat from 20hz to 20k to only put them in a room that gave me peaks and dips all over the place. I paid for the speakers so I want to hear *all* of the sound they are capable of.

Getting things better is kind of a 'you don't miss it until you've had it' situation. My system sounded good enough to me in the past but after each improvement I wouldn't want to go back to how it was. The best you've heard is the best known.

Yes I have a similar problem with my older Yamaha AVR that doesn't have EQ for the sub channel. In fact just plain old EQ wouldn't be good enough anyhow and would have to be user adjustable PEQ to be really beneficial. Me using JRiver's PEQ only allows me to get this correction for my music playback while TV and the occasional movie I watch has to go without. Not too worried as I am probably 80% music playback on my system anyhow. Ideally I would like fully adjustable PEQ with decent processing power on the AVR so all my inputs can benefit from it.

.
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post #141 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 04:07 PM
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I like to think of it as that I want to get the best possible value out of the money I have spent on my hifi.

.
Yes, and with people who like to tinker there is always something just not quite right, or something that could be just a bit better... or... or.... or.
Do you disagree with that?
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post #142 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 07:10 PM
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Yes, and with people who like to tinker there is always something just not quite right, or something that could be just a bit better... or... or.... or.
Do you disagree with that?

Yes. No. Maybe. Depends. tongue.gif

It's a hobby I like learning about and I don't think you could ever stop learning new things about it.

But how does this justify your opinion that EQing sub frequencies isn't worth worrying about because we can't hear them...???

.
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post #143 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Yes. No. Maybe. Depends. tongue.gif

It's a hobby I like learning about and I don't think you could ever stop learning new things about it.

But how does this negate your opinion that EQing sub frequencies isn't worth worrying about because we can't hear them...???

I think you answered your own question. It's not a hobby to me. It's simply a way of listening to my movies/music. Granted I do like listening at higher quality levels which is the reason I own a higher quality pioneer (as opposed to one of those walmart surround sound cheapies).

And I never said you CAN'T hear them. Some can some can't depending on who you are. What I said was that some sounds are built for FEEL and not so much sound. When a bomb goes off I want my couch to shake (and it sure does)... but while you're obsessing over your peaks which may have changed slightly from the day before because of the increased air pressure or something similar... I'm enjoying my movie smile.gif
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post #144 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Granted I do like listening at higher quality levels which is the reason I own a higher quality pioneer (as opposed to one of those walmart surround sound cheapies)

You think the name on the faceplate is what matters for audio quality...???
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post #145 of 149 Old 02-08-2014, 09:35 PM
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You think the name on the faceplate is what matters for audio quality...???
I didn't say that at all. "walmart cheapy" is an expression. It means bottom of the barrel.
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post #146 of 149 Old 02-10-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dbrown3611 View Post

Do you know and are you at liberty to answer, will this forthcoming upgrade be backward compatible with previous models? A firmware upgrade with the "new" functionality is what I have in mind. Say for example SC-6x and SC-7x models.
Pioneer???? Fat chance. Haven't seen an update for my SC67 in a year.
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post #147 of 149 Old 02-11-2014, 08:47 AM
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It seems to be very rare to have a company that will keep an older product up-to-date with firmware updates unless it's a computer operating system.

Sad really, if they would keep their older equipment up to date they would increase their brand loyalty. Sure it may cause a slight decrease in sales in the short run but in the long run I think it would actually increase their sales.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #148 of 149 Old 02-11-2014, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

It seems to be very rare to have a company that will keep an older product up-to-date with firmware updates unless it's a computer operating system.

Sad really, if they would keep their older equipment up to date they would increase their brand loyalty. Sure it may cause a slight decrease in sales in the short run but in the long run I think it would actually increase their sales.

In many instances, the key processors have changed so new features/technologies that may not be possible with the original processors due to limited resources in memory & MIPs...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
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post #149 of 149 Old 02-11-2014, 01:50 PM
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That is true but they could always plan to release updates when they first develop the product.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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