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post #1 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I was just looking for some help deciding between two receivers. At $1000 I can get the pioneer elite sc-72 or the pioneer sc-1523 which is equivalent to the sc-75 but not elite. I'm powering polk system with modest tsi300 fronts and cs10 center. I also have some older ADS speakers which I may switch out or use in zone 2. Thanks in advance for any info or insight.
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 06:55 AM
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Being they are the same price for you the Elite would be the one to purchase. It doubles the warranty over the SC-1523K.
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post #3 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 06:59 AM
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I personally recommend Yamaha, RX-A1030 is $1100

That Pioneer Elite has 41W output per channel, maximum (290W /7)

That Yamaha has 70W output per channel, maximum (490W /7)

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

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post #4 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

I personally recommend Yamaha, RX-A1030 is $1100

That Pioneer Elite has 41W output per channel, maximum (290W /7)

That Yamaha has 70W output per channel, maximum (490W /7)

Correction. The SC72 claims 660 watts all channels driven.
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post #5 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Correction. The SC72 claims 660 watts all channels driven.

Must be magic and defying laws of physics, a fusion reactor inside?

290W power consumption, 600W output.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #6 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Correction. The SC72 claims 660 watts all channels driven.

Must be magic and defying laws of physics, a fusion reactor inside?

290W power consumption, 660W output.

The way the specs are written, not both at the same time.

Power consumption measurement is done in a realistic way.

ACD is not a realistic test.
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi
Thanks for the responses. Perhaps a quick lesson in amp power is needed for me. I know the listed WPc for the pioneer is 130 and yam is is 120 but also know that is not the whole story with power supply and everything else. I did read in sound and vision though that the D3 amps lose less power as more channels are driven. They also confirmed the WPc at 130 more or less (read the sc-71 review at 120 WPc). Lol as in was also considering the 1030 as well. I would love someone to explain some of this to me as I am trying to figure some of this out.
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post #8 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jsalbs View Post

Hi
Thanks for the responses. Perhaps a quick lesson in amp power is needed for me. I know the listed WPc for the pioneer is 130 and yam is is 120 but also know that is not the whole story with power supply and everything else. I did read in sound and vision though that the D3 amps lose less power as more channels are driven. They also confirmed the WPc at 130 more or less (read the sc-71 review at 120 WPc). Lol as in was also considering the 1030 as well. I would love someone to explain some of this to me as I am trying to figure some of this out.

Be sure to not stumble over any molehills like these.

The difference between 130 watts and 120 watts is about 0.5 dB, which is barely audible under ideal conditions.

ACD tests are far from being representative of listening enjoyment at loud levels.
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post #9 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 07:37 AM
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Let me simplify it for you. Assuming you are a typical home theater user like me, then amplifier power is not an important factor. Most of us use about a watt or two of power on average with peaks of around 20 watts. That power is the same, regardless of the size of the pool from which it is drawn. Having more power in reserve is of no value unless you actually use it. Since a noticeable increase in volume requires a doubling of power, you can assume that all AV receivers have about the same amount of power. The difference between the lowest powered one and the highest powered one would be noticeable but just barely. Just choose the features you want and will use. Ignore the power ratings.
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post #10 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks FMW I will try to pick without considering power ratings although it will be tough given my obsessive nature. So I assuming either will power larger tower speakers equally should I choose to upgrade to something larger than Tsi300's. Anyone have any recommendations between Yamaha and Pioneer based on Personal experience. Thanks
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post #11 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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Given a choice between Yamaha and Pioneer, I would choose a NAD.

IMO the sound quality of both is lousy when you hook them up to actual speakers.

Power ratings are derived from a test with an 8 ohm resistor for a load, and ANY amplifier has essentially ZERO distortion connected to a resistor.

When you connect them to actual SPEAKER SYSTEMS, however, which put much a more difficult load on the amplifers, the cheaply designed Yamaha and Pioneer (and Onkyo and Anthem etc.) sound worse because they distort more (often 100 times what they do with a resistive load).

The NAD will have less distortion and sound better; end of story.

Shopping for an AVR by looking at power ratings is like shopping for a car by looking at nothing but the engine horsepower. It tells you very little and just gets in the way of more significant performance issues...like real-world distortion.

99% of the AVRs on the market have all the power you can use for most speakers. POWER is not a significant issue; SOUND QUALITY (distortion) is the issue.
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post #12 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsalbs View Post

Thanks FMW I will try to pick without considering power ratings although it will be tough given my obsessive nature. So I assuming either will power larger tower speakers equally should I choose to upgrade to something larger than Tsi300's. Anyone have any recommendations between Yamaha and Pioneer based on Personal experience. Thanks

I currently have 3 Yamaha receivers. They have excellent reliability. Never have an issue with them and they stay cool. I typically buy Yamaha for systems that I don't use much and don't want to have to worry about replacing them. Systems my wife and/or kids use. For myself, I get something with audyssey.

I don't have any recent experience with Pioneer. I owned some of their receivers back in the 1980's.
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post #13 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 11:09 AM
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The physical size of the speaker has little to do with its sensitivity. Large speakers are a little bit more sensitive but not much. The sensitivity rating is the sound pressure level one would achieve by applying 1 watt of power to the speaker system and listening from a 1 meter distance. It is safe to say that AV receiver manufacturers make products designed to drive most speakers competently and most speaker manufacturers make products designed to be driven by AV receivers competently.
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post #14 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

The physical size of the speaker has little to do with its sensitivity. Large speakers are a little bit more sensitive but not much. The sensitivity rating is the sound pressure level one would achieve by applying 1 watt of power to the speaker system and listening from a 1 meter distance. It is safe to say that AV receiver manufacturers make products designed to drive most speakers competently and most speaker manufacturers make products designed to be driven by AV receivers competently.

Just going by what I have read here and other forums regarding larger towers such as the Polk monitor 70's or RTI A7's needing more power to sound better, and most people recommending powering them with separate amplifier.
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post #15 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 01:11 PM
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Larger speakers tend to have lower sensitivity because it's easier to create high SPL at the higher frequencies. Generally speaking, the larger the speaker, the deeper it will play and hence the more power required to drive them. That's why subwoofers have very powerful amplifiers. Much more powerful than receivers.
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post #16 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsalbs View Post

Thanks FMW I will try to pick without considering power ratings although it will be tough given my obsessive nature. So I assuming either will power larger tower speakers equally should I choose to upgrade to something larger than Tsi300's. Anyone have any recommendations between Yamaha and Pioneer based on Personal experience. Thanks

I have owned multiple Pioneers since the late 1970's and have always been satisfied with the price paid, performance delivered and reliability. My SX-780 from high school days is still running out in the work shed and doing fine. On the other hand a good friend has been a fan of Yamaha's for the past 15 years, or more, and experienced similar results with his purchases.

Focus on the features that are important to you and your intended usage, that should be the guide for your decision. As FWM stated, power ratings are not a valid driving factor. I believe you'll be fine with either choice.
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post #17 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 04:08 PM
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Bickering and off-topic posts removed. Discuss the topic and not each other, please. Anything other than that from this point forward may result in the poster being restricted from the thread or forced to listen to music through bullhorn speakers for the rest of the year. Your choice.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #18 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 04:23 PM
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Being the only difference between your first two choices is the warranty, go for the Elite, either of them will work fine for the speakers you have now and for ones in the future if you choose to upgrade. As usual a lot of these type of threads seem to end up as bickering as to which brand is the best and which has the most power and don't answer the OP's original question. Good luck and enjoy whichever you choose.
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post #19 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dbrown3611 View Post

I have owned multiple Pioneers since the late 1970's and have always been satisfied with the price paid, performance delivered and reliability. My SX-780 from high school days is still running out in the work shed and doing fine. On the other hand a good friend has been a fan of Yamaha's for the past 15 years, or more, and experienced similar results with his purchases.

Focus on the features that are important to you and your intended usage, that should be the guide for your decision. As FWM stated, power ratings are not a valid driving factor. I believe you'll be fine with either choice.

Good advice here. There are some generalizations about power ratings and speaker sensitivity that can lead you astray, not to mention marketing blather from manufacturers. Just make sure which ever AVR you pick has preamp outputs for all channels, then if you feel the need for more power later on you can add amps for that purpose.

My current Pioneer AVR replaced to previous Yamahas and I'm happy with it. It does great with my small sattelites and center channel, but with my large and very low sensitivity (81dB, 1W, 1M) Infinity QLS fronts I use two Yamaha power amps through the front pre-outs.
Works great.

My system 2013-14

Panasonic TC-P65ST60, TH-50PX75U, Pioneer VSX-33, BDP-150, Fios, Yamaha RXV2500-P2200x2, Infinity QLS, M&K V-75x2
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post #20 of 20 Old 03-11-2014, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Being the only difference between your first two choices is the warranty, go for the Elite, either of them will work fine for the speakers you have now and for ones in the future if you choose to upgrade. As usual a lot of these type of threads seem to end up as bickering as to which brand is the best and which has the most power and don't answer the OP's original question. Good luck and enjoy whichever you choose.

There are actually some other differences as the 1523 is equivalent to the sc-75, one step above the sc-72. Power is one but not important from what I've learned from most here. Thanks by the way. Others include more control over other zones and dacs, ess sabre 32bit vs 24 bit. Don't know if the improved dacs are lworth it. I suspect not to my ears. Also 9.2 vs 7.2. Not sure if that makes a difference to your rec. Otherwise I do thank everyone and will post my decision and thoughts.
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Pioneer Elite Sc 72 , Pioneer Sc 1523 K 9 2 Channel Av Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 75 Receiver , Polk Audio Tsi300 Floorstanding Speaker Single Black , Polk Audio Cs10 Center Channel Speaker Single Black , Yamaha Aventage Rxa 1030 Receiver
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