Dolby Atmos and/or dts UHD receivers.......any more details??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 03-19-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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So it seems like we are on the dawn a major update in surround processing....namely, Object oriented audio codecs by both Dolby and dts.

I see in this audioholics article, Atmos for home theater is due this fall in $1K and above recievers

http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/dolby-atmos-home-theater
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Early Atmos Adopter? Dolby Wants You!
Uncle SamWe are hearing that Dolby Atmos will start working its way into AV receivers starting at around $1k this fall. Are you ready to jump on the 9.1 or 11.1 surround bandwagon? Or, do you think this will be another forced technology push like 3D and UltraHD have been, from an industry desperate to promote a shiny new product or feature rather than educating the consumers on how to better set up existing technologies to maximize their home theater experience? It will be interesting to see if consumers will identify a need and benefit for adding more speakers in their existing home theaters and if they will be willing to allocate both budget and space to accommodate


On the dts side, they demoed a UHD decoder on a prototype Cirrus Logic DSP board, so they too are probably less than a year away from introducing a consumer Object Audio product:

http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-releases/2014/01/dts-demonstrates-dts-uhd-decoder-using-single-chip-audio-dsp-at-consumer-electronics-show.aspx

Combined with HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 connectivity, a reciever with these 2 codecs would be the most future proof product out there, I would think....but have there been any more rumblings about, say, a new Onkyo flagship including dts UHD and Dolby Atmos HT?
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post #2 of 37 Old 03-19-2014, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh...on a related note, here is another audioholics article comparing the HT version of Dolby Atmos with the Cinema version:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-atmos-for-home-cinema
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post #3 of 37 Old 03-19-2014, 10:49 AM
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I am ready!:-)
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post #4 of 37 Old 03-19-2014, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Me too.....I read in the comments section of my first link that Denon/Marantz will be releasing pre/pros in the fall incorporating Dolby Atmos decoding...

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post #5 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 03:40 AM
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Any more substantial info on the Denon/Marantz pre-pro w/Atmos?

Would this be the successor to the great AVP-A1HDci ?

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post #6 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 08:28 AM
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What about in a receiver?

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #7 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 10:14 AM
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Wait till 2015....

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #8 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 11:49 AM
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Oh I am!smile.gif

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post #9 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Wait till 2015....

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

!


So are you saying they won't be available in 2014 or that a certain product worth waiting for doesn't arrive till next year?

I am willing to wait if its worth it!
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post #10 of 37 Old 03-31-2014, 06:13 PM
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!


So are you saying they won't be available in 2014 or that a certain product worth waiting for doesn't arrive till next year?

I am willing to wait if its worth it!

Their Las Vegas 2014 CE demos were excellent..
But its take significant time to debug, validate and certify the new technologies..
In September, 2014 @ IFA and CEDIA, there will be more demos & hype...
But actual product deliveries will be in 2015..
Also don't forget the software ETAs as well...

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #11 of 37 Old 04-02-2014, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Their Las Vegas 2014 CE demos were excellent..
But its take significant time to debug, validate and certify the new technologies..
In September, 2014 @ IFA and CEDIA, there will be more demos & hype...
But actual product deliveries will be in 2015..
Also don't forget the software ETAs as well...

Just my $0.05... 👍😉


OK gotya biggrin.gif
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post #12 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 07:14 AM
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I Keep hearing wait wait wait don't buy anything because Atmos is coming. So I went and read a little about Atmos and it certainly makes sense and is super exciting but from what I've read Atmos is designed to use a lot more speakers...alot more....like minimum on 5 speakers down the side walls, many overheads and such. So that means tens of thousands of dollars in amps, speaker wires and if like me with everything hidden and 3 of my walls being outside walls that trying to run speak cables in the walls will be darn near impossible.

Here is a little something I read recently on Atmos with a Dolby engineer

There are so many different sizes of cinema, can they all use Atmos effectively?
We know Atmos can serve discrete audio to up to 64 speakers, so what’s the minimum speaker configuration for Atmos?


“Well really it’s dependent on the size of the room," explains Goodes. "It’s to do with the angle between the speakers. You wouldn’t want less than five down the side walls, then you’ve got two rows of five on the ceiling and possibly four along the back and you can have only three along the front in a small room. You’ve also got your bass managed subs."

What other technologies are Dolby employing to develop Atmos?
The end game with sound is, of course, the speaker by which it’s ultimately transmitted. With sound dispersion angles being different for different makes of speakers, we asked if they’d collaborated with any of the speaker manufacturers to develop an Atmos-friendly design?

"We’ve worked with companies like JBL, Klipsch, QSC, etc., and for the overheads we typically want a wider dispersion than we normally have on the side or rear wall surround speakers," says Dolby’s Stuart Bowling. "So companies like JBL, Christie and Klipsch have started to design and release specific overhead surround speakers that have that wider dispersion pattern. We like 100˚ x 100˚or greater dispersion pattern. They are also manufacturing those speakers with regards to helping mounting them in ceilings as well."

We also asked what's recommended for cinemas in terms of sub woofers for LFE (low frequency effects) and sub bass response?

“In a theater, typically in the back third, or the sides or the ceiling we put the additional subs, or even on the rear wall for theaters that can’t accommodate those scenarios," says Bowling. "We’ve had theaters that have actually put them behind the screen, but left and right – away from the main LFE. Each configuration, or array, is, understandably, specifically tailored to suit the particular room in which it’s installed."

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post #13 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 09:49 AM
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I Keep hearing wait wait wait don't buy anything because Atmos is coming.
The suggestion to wait is so that you're a better informed consumer when purchasing, especially with CEDIA being a few months away. However, if you're determined to buy something right now, then you should go ahead. It's your money after all.
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So I went and read a little about Atmos and it certainly makes sense and is super exciting but from what I've read Atmos is designed to use a lot more speakers...alot more....like minimum on 5 speakers down the side walls, many overheads and such.
No. Object-based audio (like Atmos) is designed to be rendered to any number of speakers. A set-up with 3 front speakers, 2 surround speakers and 2 overhead height speakers will allow you to hear separation between sounds from your front soundstage vs sounds from around you vs sounds from above you. Not bad for just 7 speakers in a minimal Atmos set-up.
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So that means tens of thousands of dollars in amps, speaker wires and if like me with everything hidden and 3 of my walls being outside walls that trying to run speak cables in the walls will be darn near impossible.
ONLY if you choose to put those obstacles in your own way in order to make it darn near impossible. If you're going to go through that much effort to create problems implemtenting Atmos at home, then you should avoid it altogether and leave it to consumers that actually want it.
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Here is a little something I read recently on Atmos with a Dolby engineer
His answers have to do with Atmos in a professional environment (commercial cinema or dubbing stage). Again, if you find yourself posting information to promote the notion that Atmos will be "darn near impossible" to implement at home, then seriously consider avoiding Atmos when it rolls out to consumers. Since you're already pushing Atmos as a problem, it is definitely not for you.

Sanjay
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post #14 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 11:52 AM
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While we wait for the anticipated 2014.Q2 announcements|details of DTS-UHD (and its likely Dolby Atmos derived competitor "sometime in the future"), our best guesses about the structure of some home theater hybrid channel|object codec might come from looking at Fraunhofer’s Interactive 3D Audio System for TV (link).

See also this Scott Wilkinson report from the floor of the 2014 NAB Show in Las Vegas: TWiT Live Specials 197: NAB Show 2014 Part 1 (link); play video from 21:21 through 23:45. The Fraunhofer System demonstration appears to be playing 7.1 + 4 Height Channels + 4 Objects audio both on a discrete speaker setup (presumably 7.1 + 4 Heights?) and (alternatively) on a prototype 'flat panel attached' 3Daudio soundframe. (Note that all the objects 'visible' in the demo appear to be of the user-interactive static type.)
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post #15 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 06:17 PM
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[quote name="sdurani" url="/t/1523297/dolby-atmos-and-or-dts-uhd-receivers-any-more-details#
ONLY if you choose to put those obstacles in your own way in order to make it darn near impossible. If you're going to go through that much effort to create problems implemtenting Atmos at home, then you should avoid it altogether and leave it to consumers that actually want it.
Again, if you find yourself posting information to promote the notion that Atmos will be "darn near impossible" to implement at home, then seriously consider avoiding Atmos when it rolls out to consumers. Since you're already pushing Atmos as a problem, it is definitely not for you.[/quote]

What makes you think I'm against Atmos and am pushing it as a problem? I have a 7.2 system so if Atmos will work with 7.2 great. I'm trying to understand how it will work in a home system by what I've read about its use in commercial. By your reply back to me I'd think you're an angry at my post. Geesh rolleyes.gif

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post #16 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 07:27 PM
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What makes you think I'm against Atmos and am pushing it as a problem?
Posting that Atmos is "designed to use a lot more speakers...alot more....like minimum on 5 speakers down the side walls, many overheads and such" and that implementing it at home "means tens of thousands of dollars in amps, speaker wires". Who are you trying to scare away?

When Dolby Digital was coming to consumer gear in the mid 1990s, what if I had posted that it would require a Dolby cinema decoder and high powered amps costing "tens of thousands of dollars", and then I quote a Dolby engineer describing commercial cinema installs? Why would I do that when the discussion is about consumer gear?
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By your reply back to me I'd think you're an angry at my post.
I don't even know you, so there was no emotional investment on my part, just correcting some misinformation.

Sanjay
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post #17 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 09:52 PM
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This from the above caught my eye:

"A Dolby Atmos bitstream will be rendered by the AV-receiver into the number of speakers detected, but if the AV-receiver is not Atmos-capable, Atmos could be decoded by the source (an Atmos-capable player) into LPCM of a given number of channels, presumable up to 32 channels as the latest HDMI 2.0 version specifies."

This is the first time I've seen mention of players having surround decoders; I hope it happens as I want to go processorless using an Oppo.

Noah
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post #18 of 37 Old 04-13-2014, 11:59 PM
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This is the first time I've seen mention of players having surround decoders;
Doesn't your current BD played decode to LPCM, outputting up to 8 channels?

Sanjay
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post #19 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Posting that Atmos is "designed to use a lot more speakers...alot more....like minimum on 5 speakers down the side walls, many overheads and such" and that implementing it at home "means tens of thousands of dollars in amps, speaker wires". Who are you trying to scare away?

When Dolby Digital was coming to consumer gear in the mid 1990s, what if I had posted that it would require a Dolby cinema decoder and high powered amps costing "tens of thousands of dollars", and then I quote a Dolby engineer describing commercial cinema installs? Why would I do that when the discussion is about consumer gear?
I don't even know you, so there was no emotional investment on my part, just correcting some misinformation.

No you are the one misunderstanding here....I was asking...talking...trying to find out if what I read was true and how Atmos worked....which if I'm understanding correctly from on the other thread going that others are saying Atmos does not work like in a commercial pro theater with a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker set up. But then I read were Dolby says it will work...so this is confusing. I'm not scaring anyone away.

I'm all for new improved technology but try to grasp how it is going to be used in the home. Price points are price points and what the consumer will spend and budget for will not change much if any...not counting the 1%'ers....so AVR's and amps will have to conform to the price point and deliver more amps at the same price. It's going to get even more competitive but I don't think we will see AVR's or AV Processors this year with Atmos do you?

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post #20 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 08:01 AM
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I don't think we will see AVR's or AV Processors this year with Atmos do you?
A recent Audioholics article said that AVRs will be demonstrated at CEDIA in September and are supposed to ship soon after, with prices starting around $1k. Guess we'll find out in a few months.

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post #21 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 08:34 AM
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Doesn't your current BD played decode to LPCM, outputting up to 8 channels?

Yes, but I was thinking of 11+ ch like DTD NeoX/Atmos/Auro3D.

mdrums, I agree with Sanjay, you're way overblowing things:
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So that means tens of thousands of dollars in amps, speaker wires ...

You can get new amps for a couple hundred$/ch, used ones for much less, and speaker wire for $.50/ft.

Noah
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post #22 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 08:45 AM
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This from the above caught my eye:

"A Dolby Atmos bitstream will be rendered by the AV-receiver into the number of speakers detected, but if the AV-receiver is not Atmos-capable, Atmos could be decoded by the source (an Atmos-capable player) into LPCM of a given number of channels, presumable up to 32 channels as the latest HDMI 2.0 version specifies."

This is the first time I've seen mention of players having surround decoders; I hope it happens as I want to go processorless using an Oppo.

As would I....I may keep my Denon 4311 around as a de facto multichannel amp, but Oppo would be the ideal player to go processorless, if it also decoded Atmos. With two (and I hope eventually more) HDMI inputs, networking capability to push a media streamer or JRiver, and a Vanity board to send signals to a pro Trinnov box in the intermediate-term future, almost all of our sources could be used without a new AVR or dedicated pre/pro, and a SotA REQ (plus Trinnov Remapping). It's a bleeding edge and expensive solution, but a more flexible one, since the Trinnov solutions can go to 16, and some as high, as 32 channels.

Speaking of which, even on 'flagship' AVRs, can anyone imagine having 32 analog pre-outs for feeding into batteries of external amps?

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post #23 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 08:46 AM
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Yes, but I was thinking of 11+ ch like DTD NeoX/Atmos/Auro3D.
That will be like what we have now, but with newer decoders. Guess I was thrown off by your "first time I've seen mention of players having surround decoders" comment, since current players already have surround decoders.

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post #24 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 09:52 AM
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IMO, if they want this to be successful, it will have to offer an advantage over DTS HD MASTER with only utilizing 7.1 channels. Forum members excluded, I know 2 people that have a 7.1 setup. Everyone else thinks that their 5.1 "surround sound" is great. Normal consumers (probably 95% of the market) don't have the space and/or money to utilize more speakers than that in a normal home living room. Not to mention the WAF. I am not one of those guys, but all too often I see the wife/significant other delegating how many speakers can be used, location of said speakers (usually nowhere near optimal placement) and size of said speakers (again, usually way too small). I know the core development of this is for actual movie theaters, but receiver manufacturers aren't going to pay the licensing fees for it if the consumers aren't spending the money on the receivers that feature it. And they aren't going to buy them if they need 11+ speakers to make it work properly.
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post #25 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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As would I....I may keep my Denon 4311 around as a de facto multichannel amp, but Oppo would be the ideal player to go processorless, if it also decoded Atmos. With two (and I hope eventually more) HDMI inputs, networking capability to push a media streamer or JRiver, and a Vanity board to send signals to a pro Trinnov box in the intermediate-term future, almost all of our sources could be used without a new AVR or dedicated pre/pro, and a SotA REQ (plus Trinnov Remapping). It's a bleeding edge and expensive solution, but a more flexible one, since the Trinnov solutions can go to 16, and some as high, as 32 channels.

Speaking of which, even on 'flagship' AVRs, can anyone imagine having 32 analog pre-outs for feeding into batteries of external amps?

I can see the look on the electricians face when you tell him how many dedicated circuits you need in the room just to power all those amps safely.
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post #26 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 10:17 AM
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I can see the look on the electricians face when you tell him how many dedicated circuits you need in the room just to power all those amps safely.

LOL....I'm perfectly happy with some variation of a seven or nine channel system to meet our needs in the forseeable future. But at an extreme, there's going to be somebody wanting this, in the right size dedicated home theatre. The trick is finding out how much they're willing to pay....

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post #27 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 11:42 AM
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I don't think we're far away from models offering "up to x channels" of capability with the end user paying "x" for additional channels through a firmware update. If anything it could REDUCE costs by paring down these ridiculous 12 model avr lineups.

There's simply less and less to differentiate these models with every passing year now: EQ systems, multi zone, and increased multi channel capability is prolly about 95% of it, in my estimation.

Oh, and the "weight" factor of the bigger boys of course. wink.gif

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post #28 of 37 Old 04-14-2014, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That will be like what we have now, but with newer decoders. Guess I was thrown off by your "first time I've seen mention of players having surround decoders" comment, since current players already have surround decoders.

I don't believe there are any players that output more than the number of input channels, DPL IIx/z, DTS NeoX, and any post-processing of unencoded material that Atmos and Auro may offer.

Noah
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post #29 of 37 Old 04-22-2014, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

A recent Audioholics article said that AVRs will be demonstrated at CEDIA in September and are supposed to ship soon after, with prices starting around $1k. Guess we'll find out in a few months.

My max budget is $2K. If I can find a 11 ch. solution with dts UHD/Dolby Atmos with built in wi fi for that price I am in smile.gif
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post #30 of 37 Old 05-05-2014, 03:02 AM
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Opinion to all ya folks :

1- sony just hinted that 4K bluray will only be out in DECEMBER 2015 !!!!!! Not end 2014 as we all wanted....
2- Therefore DTS UHD and Dolby Atmos won't be sold in an AVR untill.....early 2016 ! Since BR-4K will be the only source for home where we will find these new CODECS
3- Many many people report that the difference is MINIMAL between SD Dolby/DTS vs HD bolby and HD DTS.....including with 5000$ speakers+AVR; SO i sincerely doubt that there will be a difference between HD audio vs UHD audio....at least for speakers below 10.000$ !!!!!!!!!!
4- when HD audio codecs came out in 2006....DOLBY & DTS said "these are LOSSLESS and 100% similar to the studio quality", so if HD audio is LOSSLESS....what can Ultra HD audio bring ???? this is silly !
5- Even in 2014 80% of people maybe, watch there blurays with tv sound or crappy all in one soundbars....so crappy gear.....no one actually gives a damn about 5.1 SD sound, let alone HD audio....

Conclusion ????

This is marketing crap as hd audio codecs are old and they need to sell licenses and attract people....
= EPIC fail, like 3D !
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