Onkyo looks to have announced the new TX-NR838 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 06:33 PM
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Has there been any reviews with measurements or anyone taken any sweeps? I'm curious as to their target curve.
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post #92 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 06:47 PM
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SMPTE ST202

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post #93 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

SMPTE ST202

Sorry, not up on my SMPTE jargon.  I did a quick google search and only had a couple hits, one a presentation by Toole.  Did really have the answer I was looking for.  Happen to have a freq plot, image or link for me?  Thanks.

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post #94 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 07:52 PM
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SMPTE ST202 target curve graph

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post #95 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 08:22 PM
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Thank you, so looks pretty close to Audyssey curve and others in the high frequency rolloff. Interesting no rise in the bass.
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post #96 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post



SMPTE ST202 target curve graph
Those filters look exactly like what Yamaha uses. 31.5hz to 16khz. Don't like that deep bass curve either. What happens below 30hz? Suppression?
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post #97 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 10:21 PM
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Quite honestly, I don't know frown.gif

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post #98 of 178 Old 06-09-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Quite honestly, I don't know frown.gif
Man. I thought you knew everything. lol Thanks for the graph. Competition for audyssey is a good thing.
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post #99 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 05:18 AM
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I'm still learning everyday either from trainings, white paper, or from fellow professionals, engineers, everybody. smile.gif

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post #100 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post



SMPTE ST202 target curve graph


Not like I needed to see that graph to know they screwed up by dropping XT32, but that is worse than I expected. It ignores your main speakers (really?) and starts dropping bass at 50hz? WOW! Idiots. Nail meet coffin.
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post #101 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Competition for audyssey is a good thing.


But it's not competition. It's like comparing a crank window Toyota Tercel to a fully loaded BMW 7 series. AccuEQ pales in comparison to XT32.
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post #102 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 10:57 AM
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I guess the entire team of SMPTE and Dolby are idiots according to you right? :rolleyes.gif:
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post #103 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 10:59 AM
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I'm still learning everyday either from trainings, white paper, or from fellow professionals, engineers, everybody. smile.gif
Same here and I have learned a lot from you.
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post #104 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

But it's not competition. It's like comparing a crank window Toyota Tercel to a fully loaded BMW 7 series. AccuEQ pales in comparison to XT32.
I tend to agree. We need worthy competition. XT32 extended my bass pretty flat down to 18hz.
I paid a lot for those lower frequencies. I don't want them suppressed or boosted a lot.
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post #105 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 12:37 PM
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How does calibrating with REW or TrueRTA compare to XT32? Is it worth the time?

Can you run Audyssey to get time alignment/non-EQ stuff computed, and then perform your own EQ? I've come to realize that I don't really like a flat response (I generally like a small dip around 1khz-6khz for music depending on the room and speakers, among other adjustments), and would prefer to use a different target curve to EQ to where I like.

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post #106 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post



SMPTE ST202 target curve graph
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

Those filters look exactly like what Yamaha uses. 31.5hz to 16khz. Don't like that deep bass curve either. What happens below 30hz? Suppression?

It appears that the roll off at the low end is ~2.7dB/oct based on being down -2dB from 50Hz to 31.5Hz. Presuming the slope continues linearly, 25Hz should be -2.7dB, 20Hz should be -3.24dB, 12.5Hz should be -5.4dB.

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post #107 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I guess the entire team of SMPTE and Dolby are idiots according to you right? :rolleyes.gif:


Did someone from either group tell Onkyo it was smart to ignore the two main speakers? I think not. If they did, then yes, IMO, they are idiots. I was calling Onkyo idiots for cutting corners and using a generic room EQ program, that is inferior to the solution that they were already using. Yes, I know it's all about saving money.....

The desired curve that SMPTE is after is what they "think" it should sound like. That's fine for their standard, but people here spend thousands of dollars to get down to 20hz and below. Why would they want the response to start dropping off at 50hz? Sure, you can try to EQ it flat all the way down, but for some that would require purchasing more equipment (MiniDSP, DSP built into the sub amp, etc.) and spending more money to achieve the same results. This can be resolved, ignoring the two mains can't.
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post #108 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

Not like I needed to see that graph to know they screwed up by dropping XT32, but that is worse than I expected. It ignores your main speakers (really?) and starts dropping bass at 50hz? WOW! Idiots. Nail meet coffin.

EZ solution...
Buy the stepup AVR model that includes XT32..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
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post #109 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:29 PM
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EZ solution...
Buy the stepup AVR model that includes XT32..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

Not if you stay in the Onkyo lineup. They did away with Audyssey completely according to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Onkyo AccuEQ will be used for their entire lineup. They developed this feature in collaboration with Dolby Labs.
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post #110 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

Did someone from either group tell Onkyo it was smart to ignore the two main speakers? I think not. If they did, then yes, IMO, they are idiots. I was calling Onkyo idiots for cutting corners and using a generic room EQ program, that is inferior to the solution that they were already using. Yes, I know it's all about saving money.....

The desired curve that SMPTE is after is what they "think" it should sound like. That's fine for their standard, but people here spend thousands of dollars to get down to 20hz and below. Why would they want the response to start dropping off at 50hz? Sure, you can try to EQ it flat all the way down, but for some that would require purchasing more equipment (MiniDSP, DSP built into the sub amp, etc.) and spending more money to achieve the same results. This can be resolved, ignoring the two mains can't.

The SMPTE curve is the reference standard. If you want to deviate from that, go ahead, but don't assume your preference is correct.

Accuracy can be mutually exclusive to preference. In your case, it is. In my case my preference is to achieve accuracy as intended by the industry...which is SMPTE.

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post #111 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post


The SMPTE curve is the reference standard. If you want to deviate from that, go ahead, but don't assume your preference is correct.

Accuracy can be mutually exclusive to preference. In your case, it is. In my case my preference is to achieve accuracy as intended by the industry...which is SMPTE.

But isn't that the reference for theaters?  We watch in much smaller rooms, even if they are home theaters.  

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post #112 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The SMPTE curve is the reference standard. If you want to deviate from that, go ahead, but don't assume your preference is correct.

Accuracy can be mutually exclusive to preference. In your case, it is. In my case my preference is to achieve accuracy as intended by the industry...which is SMPTE.


Agreed. I know that some of us are bass heads and that is not an "accurate" curve. I didn't mean to imply that it was "correct". It's just personal opinion.

Maybe you can answer this. Why did Audyssey not use this curve if it is the industry standard? I'm not trying to argue, just genuinely curious. What standard or curve is the Audyssey calibration based on?

Thanks for your insight.
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post #113 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:35 PM
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I've experienced Audyssey XT32 with SMPTE curve on certain models (they naame it Movie Curve or something like that). Depending on the manufacturer, Audyssey also use different curves such as Paul Barton's RoomFeel curve in its NAD processors.

Pioneer MCACC, for example, uses the curve preferred by Air Studios sound engineers with a user option to use the curve of the main L/R and how they interact in the room then applying that curve to the rest of the speakers.

As in why they don't comply to SMPTE, because the SMPTE curve don't sound "exciting" enough for many.

Nearly all my clients, for example, prefer a reasonably flat response with slight bumps in 25 Hz and/or 35 Hz plus a roll-off of around 1 dB/octave above 4 kHz.

I haven't played with the AccuEQ myself, however from the demo/training I attend, after the auto cal is done, the user can go to the EQ and play with the EQ without the need of a pro-kit. Also AccuEQ allow the user to choose the front-speaker curve just like Pioneer MCACC.

I know I'm not truly answering your question, but that's all I know regarding Audyssey in general and all I'm allowed to explain about AccuEQ. Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ

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post #114 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I've experienced Audyssey XT32 with SMPTE curve on certain models (they naame it Movie Curve or something like that). Depending on the manufacturer, Audyssey also use different curves such as Paul Barton's RoomFeel curve in its NAD processors.

Pioneer MCACC, for example, uses the curve preferred by Air Studios sound engineers with a user option to use the curve of the main L/R and how they interact in the room then applying that curve to the rest of the speakers.

As in why they don't comply to SMPTE, because the SMPTE curve don't sound "exciting" enough for many.

Nearly all my clients, for example, prefer a reasonably flat response with slight bumps in 25 Hz and/or 35 Hz plus a roll-off of around 1 dB/octave above 4 kHz.

I haven't played with the AccuEQ myself, however from the demo/training I attend, after the auto cal is done, the user can go to the EQ and play with the EQ without the need of a pro-kit. Also AccuEQ allow the user to choose the front-speaker curve just like Pioneer MCACC.

I know I'm not truly answering your question, but that's all I know regarding Audyssey in general and all I'm allowed to explain about AccuEQ. Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ

How is AccuEQ for dual sub configurations? My favorite part of MultiXT32 is the (usually) included Sub EQ HT. Can AccuEQ compete?
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post #115 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:42 PM
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But isn't that the reference for theaters?  We watch in much smaller rooms, even if they are home theaters.  

You are absolutely correct, hence there are variations on the graph shown depending on the size of the theatre. For home, although there will be roll-offs, they won't be as "severe" as the "small theatre"

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post #116 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:47 PM
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How is AccuEQ for dual sub configurations? My favorite part of MultiXT32 is the (usually) included Sub EQ HT. Can AccuEQ compete?
sub Eq only sets level and distance for two subs. It still eqs them as one. For most on these forums it really is not needed as it can be done manually.
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post #117 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I know I'm not truly answering your question, but that's all I know regarding Audyssey in general and all I'm allowed to explain about AccuEQ. Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ


Excellent info. Thank you David.
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post #118 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
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How is AccuEQ for dual sub configurations? My favorite part of MultiXT32 is the (usually) included Sub EQ HT. Can AccuEQ compete?

Until I've played with the actual unit, I don't know the answer to this.

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post #119 of 178 Old 06-10-2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I know I'm not truly answering your question, but that's all I know regarding Audyssey in general and all I'm allowed to explain about AccuEQ. Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ
Ooh, how mysterious. rolleyes.gif I guess the implication here is that Onkyo developed their own solution, from scratch, purely because they thought Audyssey was no longer up to snuff? And it took them (at least) six generations of receivers/processors to figure this out? I'm not buying that Audyssey's licensing fees and Onkyo's focus on the bottom line weren't at least part of the reason behind Onkyo dumping Audyssey.

I hope AccuEQ is the real deal -- that's better for everyone because it gives the consumer more options and it'll force Audyssey to refrain from resting on their laurels. But Audyssey has a relatively long history of highly-regarded performance so it's not a surprise that enthusiasts might be skeptical of AccuEQ. It's gonna take more than platitudes for AccuEQ to measure up, much less improve upon, what we know Audyssey delivers.
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post #120 of 178 Old 06-15-2014, 07:00 AM
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Wanted reciever

I was looking at getting a Onkyo TX-NR838. Well which one should i get now.
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