Onkyo looks to have announced the new TX-NR838 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
In my case my preference is to achieve accuracy as intended by the industry...which is SMPTE.
How can this accuracy be achieved
a) With only one measurement point?
b) Worse... when you bypass EQ of front channels?

So, it doesn't work already by definition (according to their own marketing claims)!

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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ
I don't buy the religion. Setting up a HT is a technical task, so I need to know properties of component I am selecting for it. If unknown - they do not exist. You are trying to sell a pig in a poke. If there is a big reason (technical, not monetary) name one!
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post #122 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 06:06 PM
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I have NDA, all insiders have NDA they have to adhere to. No need to be rude.

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post #123 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 06:26 PM
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This kind of marketing is rude in the first place. BTW the product is already selling... yet what it contains is undefined.
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post #124 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 06:29 PM
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Whatever

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post #125 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
I've experienced Audyssey XT32 with SMPTE curve on certain models (they naame it Movie Curve or something like that). Depending on the manufacturer, Audyssey also use different curves such as Paul Barton's RoomFeel curve in its NAD processors.

Pioneer MCACC, for example, uses the curve preferred by Air Studios sound engineers with a user option to use the curve of the main L/R and how they interact in the room then applying that curve to the rest of the speakers.

As in why they don't comply to SMPTE, because the SMPTE curve don't sound "exciting" enough for many.

Nearly all my clients, for example, prefer a reasonably flat response with slight bumps in 25 Hz and/or 35 Hz plus a roll-off of around 1 dB/octave above 4 kHz.

I haven't played with the AccuEQ myself, however from the demo/training I attend, after the auto cal is done, the user can go to the EQ and play with the EQ without the need of a pro-kit. Also AccuEQ allow the user to choose the front-speaker curve just like Pioneer MCACC.

I know I'm not truly answering your question, but that's all I know regarding Audyssey in general and all I'm allowed to explain about AccuEQ. Suffice to say, there is a big reason (not monetary) why Onkyo shift to AccuEQ
Hi David -

Pioneer also give the option of applying THX curves via 'listening modes' OR 'x-curve' adjustments? Both of which simply roll off the high end.

But, does it apply it's Air studios EQ curve and the put whatever you select, if anything (THX or X-curve) on top of the EQ curve?

The SMTPE graph you posted with the roll off on the low end, that doesn't apply to the LFE channel does it?? That would seem odd if so.

I recently had a great conversation with a guy over at Meyers Sound. Learned a lot..... SMTPE etc.... got their pink noise tones and some other calibration tones they have. Interesting stuff!

Anyways... I have a Pioneer AVR and JBL pro cinema speakers x7. The speakers have x-cruve built in, but it seems like MCACC tries to fix that by boosting the highs. That's fine I guess (I like the high roll off), but I always wondered what happens when I select THX mode or up the x-curve on the AVR. I've been meaning to adjust the EQ so all the speakers are 'equalized' to the speaker with the least amount of equalization. If that makes sense.

RE: Audyssey. I had one of their SVS AS-EQ1 units. I wasn't impressed one bit. I do have a hard room to EQ, but the entire process was long and once done it was done. Either like it or re-run the calibration. That was enough for me. Combined with reading about the way it works on equipped AVRs I know it's not for me.

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post #126 of 176 Old 06-20-2014, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
How can this accuracy be achieved
a) With only one measurement point?
b) Worse... when you bypass EQ of front channels?

So, it doesn't work already by definition (according to their own marketing claims)!



I don't buy the religion. Setting up a HT is a technical task, so I need to know properties of component I am selecting for it. If unknown - they do not exist. You are trying to sell a pig in a poke. If there is a big reason (technical, not monetary) name one!
Hear hear!

The NDAs I've dealt with require you to say nothing if you're in possession of sensitive information; there's no latitude for the coy "I know something you don't" game. But whatever.

FWIW, here's JD's (of AVS) explanation of why Audyssey abandoned Audyssey on their upcoming Atmos-capable units.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-20-2014 at 10:27 PM.
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post #127 of 176 Old 06-21-2014, 03:47 AM
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So finally, this sounds like reasonable explanation, contrary to BS from Onkyo marketing about the "advantages". And it appears the reason is totally monetary as they simply do not want to put enough processing power for both Atmos and decent EQ into their higher-end units (or partner with someone who does it more resource-efficiently, such as Dirac, but probably even in this case they would not fit into available MFLOPS, not to tell about the license cost).
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post #128 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 04:05 AM
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Anyone think Onkyo might do what audyssey did and save a "superior" version of their room calibration software for their higher end units?
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post #129 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 04:50 AM
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This is possible, but considering how this 'lower-end' version is marketed there is not much difference to expect. The information about Onkyo not wanting to put more DSPs in comparison to what D&M will do also suggests no big difference. Let's see and hope for the better, but I am more than sceptical ATM.
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post #130 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 10:52 PM
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Hi All,

I just got my TX-NR838 on Saturday. Since this thread was about AccuEQ, I wanted to chim-in and share my expedience so far.

1. during AccuEQ also the front speakers will have the test sound (same as all speaker in the set-up)
- test tone which gets louder (1st round)
- test tone which stays at same high level (2nd round)
2. in the AccuEQ set-up menu you can see that all speakers have been adjusted in terms of frequency, level and distance (btw. all settings can be changed)

I had previously the TX-NR616 for two years which I re-calibrated just the week before the 838 arrived. I have to say that there is a big difference between them - FYI: I'm using the start sequence from Star Trek Into Darkness (BluRay) as my reference.

Besides the obviously more punch and power the 838 provides, there is much more detail you can hear and the "inside the movie" feeling is great.
When Kirk and Doc are running thru the forest you have the feeling that you are running with them - it is easy to locate the different sounds the guys create (moving leaves, breaking of branches, the conversation). But the best scene (for me and in terms of sound) comes when the Enterprise rises out of the ocean and the water is dripping of it - and you can really hear the water as a wall moving thru the room as you get closer to it - I was amazed.

I did not had more time for some more checking since I was hooked up with House of Card Season 2 but surely within the next days I will watch some more and will share with you.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Set-up:
Sony KDL-55HX955
Onkyo TX-NR838
Oppo BDP-103 (no video processing)
Q Acoustics Q7000 (5.1 set - 120Hz sub freq)
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post #131 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lump00r View Post
Hi All,

I just got my TX-NR838 on Saturday. Since this thread was about AccuEQ, I wanted to chim-in and share my expedience so far.

1. during AccuEQ also the front speakers will have the test sound (same as all speaker in the set-up)
- test tone which gets louder (1st round)
- test tone which stays at same high level (2nd round)
2. in the AccuEQ set-up menu you can see that all speakers have been adjusted in terms of frequency, level and distance (btw. all settings can be changed)

I had previously the TX-NR616 for two years which I re-calibrated just the week before the 838 arrived. I have to say that there is a big difference between them - FYI: I'm using the start sequence from Star Trek Into Darkness (BluRay) as my reference.

Besides the obviously more punch and power the 838 provides, there is much more detail you can hear and the "inside the movie" feeling is great.
When Kirk and Doc are running thru the forest you have the feeling that you are running with them - it is easy to locate the different sounds the guys create (moving leaves, breaking of branches, the conversation). But the best scene (for me and in terms of sound) comes when the Enterprise rises out of the ocean and the water is dripping of it - and you can really hear the water as a wall moving thru the room as you get closer to it - I was amazed.

I did not had more time for some more checking since I was hooked up with House of Card Season 2 but surely within the next days I will watch some more and will share with you.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Set-up:
Sony KDL-55HX955
Onkyo TX-NR838
Oppo BDP-103 (no video processing)
Q Acoustics Q7000 (5.1 set - 120Hz sub freq)
Hmmm. I will have to track down the post where it was shown that the FL/FR speakers were basically not measured or corrected. Onkyo's RC has to be missing something as they would not be able to handle the upcoming audio formats with two processors on board if they used the same type of process like Audyssey. Audyssey has already been shown to need more processing power for the newer formats than two chips can provide.

Once I find it I'll post back.
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post #132 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post
Hmmm. I will have to track down the post where it was shown that the FL/FR speakers were basically not measured or corrected. Onkyo's RC has to be missing something as they would not be able to handle the upcoming audio formats with two processors on board if they used the same type of process like Audyssey. Audyssey has already been shown to need more processing power for the newer formats than two chips can provide.

Once I find it I'll post back.
I was also surprised and that's the reason I wrote here .

Looking at the 838 product sheet on Onkyo US website it says as following for AccuEQ:

Quote:
AccuEQ Room Calibration
AccuEQ optimizes surround-sound and two-channel audio to suit your listening space. In particular, AccuEQ extracts the best possible performance from your front speakers to make stereo listening more dynamic and exciting. The system analyzes speaker setup and room acoustics from one listening position (which simplifies the calibration process) and optimizes frequency response and output levels for maximum clarity.

Bypassing the front speakers is clearly not what it does - according to the AccuEQ menu on my 838...
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post #133 of 176 Old 06-22-2014, 11:57 PM
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This is straight from the TX-NR838's "overview" page on Onkyo's website:

AccuEQ Room Calibration

Effective Correction for Dynamic Multichannel and Stereo Sound

Onkyo developed AccuEQ to simplify the initial home theater setup process, and to make both surround-sound and two-channel audio sound clean and clear in your listening space.

To showcase the unique acoustical characteristics of your front loudspeakers, AccuEQ bypasses the front two channels so you can enjoy authentic hi-fi audio quality for stereo music, with no DSP correction applied.

Instead, the included microphone measures the distances, crossovers, and output levels of the surround and center speakers from one easy listening position, which speeds up and simplifies the calibration process. With room correction complete, you can enjoy perfect clarity and three-dimensional cohesion when playing multichannel movie soundtracks, and natural high-fidelity performance for stereo listening.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-23-2014 at 12:01 AM.
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post #134 of 176 Old 06-23-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lump00r View Post
Hi All,

I just got my TX-NR838 on Saturday. Since this thread was about AccuEQ, I wanted to chim-in and share my expedience so far.
.
.
Thanks for posting your experiences @Lump00r . Interesting stuff.
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post #135 of 176 Old 06-23-2014, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post
Anyone think Onkyo might do what audyssey did and save a "superior" version of their room calibration software for their higher end units?


According to this post below, no.



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Onkyo AccuEQ will be used for their entire lineup. They developed this feature in collaboration with Dolby Labs.
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post #136 of 176 Old 06-23-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post
FL/FR speakers were basically not measured or corrected.
They still obviously have to be measured to set distances and bass management crossovers properly! But according to Onkyo they are not corrected.
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post #137 of 176 Old 06-23-2014, 09:21 PM
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In my mind the receiver using AccuEq must first measure the behavior of the two front stereo speakers in order to provide the target to match the other speakers to. Without sending the test tone to the front speakers and measuring the response then there wouldn't be any data to compare the other speakers to.

So it seems that the fronts would be measured but not corrected if I understand what was said by Lump00r with the TX-NR838 calibration to match with the Onkyo description.

Last edited by DoDaLeCa; 06-23-2014 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Used wrong name for AccuEq
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post #138 of 176 Old 06-23-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DoDaLeCa View Post
In my mind the receiver using AccuEq must first measure the behavior of the two front stereo speakers in order to provide the target to match the other speakers to. Without sending the test tone to the front speakers and measuring the response then there wouldn't be any data to compare the other speakers to.

So it seems that the fronts would be measured but not corrected if I understand what was said by Lump00r with the TX-NR838 calibration to match with the Onkyo description.
Why do the other speakers need to be compared to the mains? The others will be eq'd to a pre-defined target curve that the mains have no bearing on.
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post #139 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 06:17 AM
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Why do the other speakers need to be compared to the mains? The others will be eq'd to a pre-defined target curve that the mains have no bearing on.
I've probably wandered off in the wrong direction in my train of thought (isn't the first time that's happened), for some reason I thought AccuEq was doing something to complement the front speakers but that doesn't seem likely now.
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post #140 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lump00r View Post
Hi All,

I just got my TX-NR838 on Saturday. Since this thread was about AccuEQ, I wanted to chim-in and share my expedience so far.

1. during AccuEQ also the front speakers will have the test sound (same as all speaker in the set-up)
- test tone which gets louder (1st round)
- test tone which stays at same high level (2nd round)
2. in the AccuEQ set-up menu you can see that all speakers have been adjusted in terms of frequency, level and distance (btw. all settings can be changed)

I had previously the TX-NR616 for two years which I re-calibrated just the week before the 838 arrived. I have to say that there is a big difference between them - FYI: I'm using the start sequence from Star Trek Into Darkness (BluRay) as my reference.

Besides the obviously more punch and power the 838 provides, there is much more detail you can hear and the "inside the movie" feeling is great.
When Kirk and Doc are running thru the forest you have the feeling that you are running with them - it is easy to locate the different sounds the guys create (moving leaves, breaking of branches, the conversation). But the best scene (for me and in terms of sound) comes when the Enterprise rises out of the ocean and the water is dripping of it - and you can really hear the water as a wall moving thru the room as you get closer to it - I was amazed.

I did not had more time for some more checking since I was hooked up with House of Card Season 2 but surely within the next days I will watch some more and will share with you.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Set-up:
Sony KDL-55HX955
Onkyo TX-NR838
Oppo BDP-103 (no video processing)
Q Acoustics Q7000 (5.1 set - 120Hz sub freq)

Thanks for sharing.

You used the 616's Audyssey 2EQ to calibrate your system prior to the arrival of your 838?

With regards to thermal dissipation, does the 838 throw off much heat or seem to have any hot spots?

Any plans to hook up a 4K media player/TV that requires HDCP 2.2? (Onkyo appears to be the only manufacturer shipping AVRs with HDCP 2.2 at this time).

Please continue to post your experience with your 838.
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post #141 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 12:52 PM
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Count me in as another disappointed Onkyo fan. Deciding to drop Audyssey just because they'd have to put in a more powerful processor is a dumb bean counter move.

My next receiver will be from Denon now.
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post #142 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 12:59 PM
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Said the person who never listened, measured or even tried both before making that statement

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You did of course
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post #144 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 01:21 PM
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Uhmmmm, yes I have.

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Said the person who never listened, measured or even tried both before making that statement
Having a bad day? Or are you always so rude?
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post #146 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 01:26 PM
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Uhmmmm, yes I have.
So then can you share measurements of the AccuEQ to us?
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post #147 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 02:30 PM
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So then can you share measurements of the AccuEQ to us?
No, it's still all very hush-hush and only "insiders" are allowed to know the goods. But "trust me," it's better than Audyssey, even though it only measures one position and doesn't EQ the mains or the subs.

Color me extremely skeptical...I guess we'll see.
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post #148 of 176 Old 06-24-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
Thanks for sharing.

You used the 616's Audyssey 2EQ to calibrate your system prior to the arrival of your 838?

With regards to thermal dissipation, does the 838 throw off much heat or seem to have any hot spots?

Any plans to hook up a 4K media player/TV that requires HDCP 2.2? (Onkyo appears to be the only manufacturer shipping AVRs with HDCP 2.2 at this time).

Please continue to post your experience with your 838.
Hi Kokishin,

Yes I used the Audyssey 2EQ on the 616. What data AccuEQ is using and what exactly it is doing with the front speaker I cannot tell - distance, frequency and level will be set for all speakers, this is what I can confirm. Furthermore I do not have the feeling that AccuEQ is doing a bad job - the front speakers do not feel wrong so to say - the 838 creates a great 5.1 surround sound, nothing sounds "suspicious" from my point of view. My system contains 5 equal speakers so it is maybe difficult to spot a difference. If somebody have a combination of different speakers in terms of power and size it could maybe more obvious.

But on a side note - look what Onkyo announced: "The company will also release a firmware update, targeted in September, enabling Dolby Atmos® on its mid-range TX-NR636, TX-NR737, and TX-NR838 network A/V receivers now available worldwide." Link

Back to the 838

I did not check in detail for the heat - I could see during the set-up a 9cm FAN directly under the top - slightly moved to the bottom right corner from the center of the 838 if you look from top. I will check later today when I watch a movie about any hot spots - will update here.

No 4k planed at the moment, maybe end of the year. Still waiting that 4k material gets more mainstream.

So far nothing negative to report.
- Easy and fast initial set-up
- very good WLAN connection (always around 95% signal strength)
- very solid and nice mfg quality
- GUI menu is the same as 616 (just the icons are all silver instead of colored)
- no issues with HDMI connection or board

On a side note - if you are using a Harmony remote - no changes required between 616 and 838 - all commands, macros etc were working right away.

Last edited by Lump00r; 06-24-2014 at 08:50 PM. Reason: typos
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post #149 of 176 Old 06-25-2014, 06:25 PM
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Some feedback on heat:

After two hours of watching on around 2/3 of the volume level, the 838 was decent hot on the top cover - especially in the middle of the receiver, very close to the FAN location area but FAN was not working. But you could still touch the top cover without any problem - the hot spot was very concentrated - all other area was medium warm to room temp.

BTW: You have to know that my OPPO is direct on top of the 838 - without any additional spacers in between.

Last edited by Lump00r; 06-25-2014 at 11:47 PM. Reason: typo
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post #150 of 176 Old 06-25-2014, 10:19 PM
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Thank you for the updates/feedback Lump00r. Glad you are enjoying your new Onkyo. Look forward to your future updates.

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