Onkyo looks to have announced the new TX-NR838 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SpenceJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
It looks great with HDCP 2.2 and support for 4K at 60Hz , however I am waiting for something that can output 9.2 channels before I replace my trusty TX-NR905

Product info
http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR838&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

Here is their YouTube channel introducing it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvQZAZgGoWc
GIEGAR likes this.

SpenceJT

www.spenceplace.com

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"
- Malcolm Reynolds, Capt. "Serenity" -
SpenceJT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 06:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
Patrick Collins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Nokomis, Fl. USA
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 42
The biggest thing that jumped out at me was the elimination of all Audyssey functions. In fact the whole line of TX-NRx3x models is devoid of Audyssey. I was expecting the return of Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 for the TX-NR838 that the 818 had but was dumbed down to MultiEQ on the 828.

They now have their own AccuEQ as it's replacement.

The biggest sound improvement with my TX-NR929 was Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 over my previous MultiEQ XT.

I'm more than curious about whether an expected 939 will stick with the proven MultiEQ XT32.

Also what will they be doing with the late to market TX-NR1011, 3011 and 5011 or whatever they will be called? They have to have quality room/speaker optimization. Their delay is likely tied to implementation of HDMI 2.0.
brad713 likes this.

Patrick
Patrick Collins is offline  
post #3 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 06:25 PM
Senior Member
 
luvmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 46
That's kind of surprising that Onkyo did away with Audyssey, especailly XT32. That could hurt them. On the other hand, perhaps they figured the licensing to be too expensive. It also makes one wonder what the price point will be for a AVR with an untried REQ that probably a lot of thought was not put into beyond saving money.
luvmusic is offline  
post #4 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 06:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmusic View Post

That's kind of surprising that Onkyo did away with Audyssey, especailly XT32. That could hurt them. On the other hand, perhaps they figured the licensing to be too expensive. It also makes one wonder what the price point will be for a AVR with an untried REQ that probably a lot of thought was not put into beyond saving money.

This is the first that I have heard of Onkyo ditching Audyssey. Very interesting. Will their AccuEQ Room Calibration be used on all their AVRs and processors?

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is online now  
post #5 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
Patrick Collins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Nokomis, Fl. USA
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Bill,
It's not just Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 that's missing. It's DSX, Volume etc throughout the whole line up so far. Usually the word gets out about something like this before the models actually get to market. Like everyone else this was a complete surprise to me, although the dumbing down of the 828 to MultEQ from Multi XT32 may have been a precursor.

Now I'm especially curious about the upper models yet to come out. And the AccuEQ has to prove itself.

I think I'm going to hug my 929.

Patrick
Patrick Collins is offline  
post #6 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:15 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

Bill,
It's not just Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 that's missing. It's DSX, Volume etc throughout the whole line up so far. Usually the word gets out about something like this before the models actually get to market. Like everyone else this was a complete surprise to me, although the dumbing down of the 828 to MultEQ from Multi XT32 may have been a precursor.

Now I'm especially curious about the upper models yet to come out. And the AccuEQ has to prove itself.

I think I'm going to hug my 929.

Patrick,

Thanks for your thoughts on this smile.gif. I wonder if this change was just to save money or if Onkyo feels AccuEQ will be a good enough replacement for Audyssey. I wonder if Denon and Marantz will follow?

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is online now  
post #7 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Posted this in another thread, but on the surface it appears AccuEQ is rudimentary at best

To showcase the unique acoustical characteristics of your front loudspeakers, AccuEQ bypasses the front two channels so you can enjoy authentic hi-fi audio quality for stereo music, with no DSP correction applied.

Instead, the included microphone measures the distances, crossovers, and output levels of the surround and center speakers from one easy listening position, which speeds up and simplifies the calibration process. With room correction complete, you can enjoy perfect clarity and three-dimensional cohesion when playing multichannel movie soundtracks, and natural high-fidelity performance for stereo listening.


Seems almost pointless and the list price is $1199. No mention of any sub EQ either.

Wow, super disappointing.
brad713 and GIEGAR like this.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
Kini62 is offline  
post #8 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:41 PM
 
Goat1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Eagan,Mn
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
This makes no sense. A lot of people will be Denon owners now. What about audyssey now? All they have is Denon and Marantz.
Goat1 is offline  
post #9 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 741
Seems the question is how does AccuEQ stack up against Audyssey; I've barely heard of it so far and wonder how extensive it is? It will likely take a while until folk get their hands on one and measure and report here and in other forums, though. I've always wondered how much Audyssey licensing costs the OEMs, wonder if they tried to ask more as it became more popular.


ps just saw Kini's info....not so good.

lovinthehd is online now  
post #10 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 07:52 PM
 
Goat1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Eagan,Mn
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Probably and onk said screw you and slapped something together.
Goat1 is offline  
post #11 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 08:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mastermaybe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 154
I REALLY want to finally follow through with my XT vs XT32 abx and see how much walk is behind the talk. I have xt32 and ran a rudimentary side by side "against" an avr with XT I had with the same mic, speakers, and of course, room, and I and two others could not reliably decipher the two- and I have a terrible room.

That's a bit of an aside, but my real thrust is Id like to see what people "prefer" (if they do at all) without bias- that being onkyos own tech vs audyssey.

I would almost guarantee the results would roll some eyes.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

mastermaybe is offline  
post #12 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 08:45 PM
 
Goat1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Eagan,Mn
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I think onk is going on the cheap. If yamaha and pioneer don't need it, why do we?
Goat1 is offline  
post #13 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 08:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zeus33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,216
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Seems almost pointless and the list price is $1199. No mention of any sub EQ either.

Wow, super disappointing.


Agreed. They are sealing their own fate. It's one thing to use this extremely basic processing for the lower models, but one that MSRPs for $1200? I don't know what idiot thought that was a good idea, but they will find out very quickly that it was a horrible idea.

This plus the HDMI issues is very bad news for Onkyo. I think their future receiver sales will be bleak.
zeus33 is offline  
post #14 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 09:00 PM
 
Goat1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Eagan,Mn
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Its called arrogance.
Goat1 is offline  
post #15 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 09:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 741
Could be cost control thing after the damage done by hdmi issues? I certainly only considered my Onkyo because it had Audyssey, as well as certain other features I was looking for at the time, but it was the combination that made sense to me (even risking the hdmi issue). I just wonder how many people even want anything more than something simple like AccuEQ sounds to be. I do note Onkyo is still listed on the Audyssey site. I wonder just what models, if any, will have it now....only their very top of the line? Is Audyssey being bought out by one of the other big boys? Curious minds want to know!


ps Is Integra also losing Audyssey?

lovinthehd is online now  
post #16 of 164 Old 04-16-2014, 09:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JohnAV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Patrick,

Thanks for your thoughts on this smile.gif. I wonder if this change was just to save money or if Onkyo feels AccuEQ will be a good enough replacement for Audyssey. I wonder if Denon and Marantz will follow?

Bill
Probably Onkyo has economized their lower end models. They seem to be talking away features with each model progression 818, 828, 838. You can look at http://www.audyssey.com where they still show Onkyo, Integra. Will their much more expensive models offer other changes.

How about this limitation:

The TX-NR838 also supports the latest HDCP 2.2 DRM copy protection standard via HDMI Input 3 and the main output. Hollywood studios, satellite broadcasters, and internet video streaming services will adopt HDCP 2.2 for future 4K and Premium Studio Content releases. It’s essential your A/V receiver have HDCP 2.2 compatibility to view Ultra HD content via internet streaming services and future TV broadcasts. Onkyo is one of the very few A/V receiver brands to currently support this feature.

Then there is advertising this:
Quote:
The TX-NR838 was also designed with analog lovers in mind. Unlike most A/V receivers in this category, we include a high-quality moving-magnet phono equalizer to enable turntable connection via the rear input . Three-Stage Inverted Darlington Circuitry high-current amplification brings out the warmth and dynamism of your records. Whether you’re a long-time collector or just starting out in the hobby, the TX-NR838 will surprise and delight with authentic high-fidelity sound.

Would think that is not catering to analog lovers but just a phono input.
GIEGAR likes this.

Oppo Beta Group
JohnAV is offline  
post #17 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 12:32 AM
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,180
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 322
:shakes head in disbelief: Crook move Onkyo.
GIEGAR is offline  
post #18 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 12:56 AM
Member
 
Prietz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Interesting to see how this new EQ system will stack up to the likes of YPAO, MCACC, Audyssey(XT and XT32, the most noticeable forms), ARC a.nd others.

It could be a good decision though wink.gif Maybe Onkyo will give the customer more freedom in tweaking the EQ calibration? Audyssey as we all know does not allow you to alter the EQ unless you buy the expensive Pro Kit.
anthrojohn likes this.

TV: Panasonic TX-P50VT30E
Audio | Receiver: Pioneer VSX-AX2AS-S (Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS) | Speakers: 2x KEF Q900 for Fronts | 2x KEF Q700 for Rears
Audio/Video Sources | Panasonic DMP-BDT 310 | Pioneer PL-510 | HTPC using Intel i3-3220 16GB XBMC on Ubuntu 13.10
Prietz0r is offline  
post #19 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SpenceJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I hadn't had a chance to dig in and compare specs. I am greatly disappointed that Onkyo has chosen to drop Audyssey.

Is there any chance that the 929 could receive a firmware update that could provide HDCP 2.2, HDMI 2.0, and support for 4K at up to 60Hz?

If not, this long-time Onkyo customer will being evaluating additional options.

SpenceJT

www.spenceplace.com

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"
- Malcolm Reynolds, Capt. "Serenity" -
SpenceJT is offline  
post #20 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 05:23 AM
Senior Member
 
dwaleke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Spence: you need hardware and software for hdmi 2.0. I don't know what hardware is in the 929 but it's probably safe to say it will not support it.
SpenceJT likes this.
dwaleke is offline  
post #21 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 06:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 2,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

I don't know what idiot thought that was a good idea

The idiot is most likely Gibson guitars.
KidHorn is offline  
post #22 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 06:19 AM
Member
 
comtom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
comtom is offline  
post #23 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SpenceJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post

Spence: you need hardware and software for hdmi 2.0. I don't know what hardware is in the 929 but it's probably safe to say it will not support it.

Thanks - After three Onkyo AV Receivers over the past 15 years, I think this may be the year where I give up the "brand loyalty" thing. Does the Denon 4520ci include HDCP 2.x and high refresh rate 4K? ...time to do some digging. :-)

SpenceJT

www.spenceplace.com

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"
- Malcolm Reynolds, Capt. "Serenity" -
SpenceJT is offline  
post #24 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 07:30 AM
Senior Member
 
luvmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

I think onk is going on the cheap. If yamaha and pioneer don't need it, why do we?

There in lies the question. Yamaha and pioneer spent time developing their propiatary REQ. That of course doesn't mean it's perfect, but neither is Audyssey or ARC or any of them, they aren't meant to be. They are good starting points though and should be used just to make life easier.
The question is did Onkyo see this coming? Has Onkyo been planning this and developing the software all along over the last few years or was this a slap together thing due to a large licensing fee hike from Audyssey that they did not want to pay? Yes, where does this leave Denon and Marantz?
luvmusic is offline  
post #25 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 07:41 AM
Senior Member
 
dwaleke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpenceJT View Post

Does the Denon 4520ci include HDCP 2.x and high refresh rate 4K? ...time to do some digging. :-)

All the information I have seen so far say it will not support it. Almost all exisiting AVRs that do not support 4k @ 60fps currently will not be able to support hdmi 2.0. Then HDCP 2.2 is another requirement that will be wanted/needed outside of the additional features of HDMI 2.0.

That's why lots of people are currently waiting to see what happens with the 2014 model receivers before buying anything. So far 2014 Onkyo support both. 2014 Yamaha support 4k 60fps but not sure about HDCP 2.2. 2014 Pioneer support 4k 60fps, but not sure about HDCP 2.2. It may be possible to enable HDCP 2.2 with software if the hardware is already in their AVRs.

I haven't seen anything from Denon, Marantz, or Integra.
SpenceJT likes this.
dwaleke is offline  
post #26 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 07:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
LowTech1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 43
I'm sure they were planning it. Its just like Samsung working on their own phone operating system. They have been slowly building their own app store. They just don't want to be at another companies mercy. Only reason I bought the 818 was for the XT32. I will try a different brand next time,leaning towards Yamaha actually.
LowTech1 is offline  
post #27 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SpenceJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post

All the information I have seen so far say it will not support it. Almost all exisiting AVRs that do not support 4k @ 60fps currently will not be able to support hdmi 2.0. Then HDCP 2.2 is another requirement that will be wanted/needed outside of the additional features of HDMI 2.0.

That's why lots of people are currently waiting to see what happens with the 2014 model receivers before buying anything. So far 2014 Onkyo support both. 2014 Yamaha support 4k 60fps but not sure about HDCP 2.2. 2014 Pioneer support 4k 60fps, but not sure about HDCP 2.2. It may be possible to enable HDCP 2.2 with software if the hardware is already in their AVRs.

I haven't seen anything from Denon, Marantz, or Integra.

Thanks again!

I have been out of the market (and out of the forums) for a while, but since upgrading my front speakers and holding on to my old pair (for use as height channel), I am looking to upgrade to something that can output 9 channels without the need for an external amplifier, but if I'm buying, I want to do my best to ensure that it will meet up with specs currently on the books for 4K, should the day come when my 75" LaserVue goes off to "Mitsubishi heaven".

I've found the same thing in researching the Denon 4520, however it looks to be from the same generation as Onkyo's beloved TX-NR929, so I am guessing that a new product annoucement will be coming in the months ahead.

While I would love to put my old/small speakers into service as a height channel, I have the benefit of "time", so I'll wait to see what Denon introduces.

Regards,
Spence

SpenceJT

www.spenceplace.com

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"
- Malcolm Reynolds, Capt. "Serenity" -
SpenceJT is offline  
post #28 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 08:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
LowTech1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Are the new Onk's THX certified?
LowTech1 is offline  
post #29 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 08:57 AM
Member
 
brad713's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
The manuals for the 838 and 737 are not posted yet, but the new 636 manual is available.The manual posted online for 636 indicates that the AccuEQ is either off or on. It doesn't have the depth of options the audyssey had (i.e. different target curves, dynamic eq, dynamic volume, reference levels), or at least I don't see them in the manual. There also appears to be only one measuring position.

Unless they have different "versions" of AccuEQ in the higher end models, the lack of options seems like a downgrade to me.
brad713 is offline  
post #30 of 164 Old 04-17-2014, 09:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flickhtguru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lebanon, PA
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Onkyo has gone way down hill in my book...... That AccuEQ looks like a joke: it BYPASSES the FRONT LEFT & RIGHT channels AND it measures from ONLY 1 Location... If I was getting another receiver anytime soon it would be a Denon X4000. BTW I currently have an Onkyo 808 and love it, wish I would have waited 1 year for the 818 but oh well.

Shawn
flickhtguru is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors
Gear in this thread - TX-NR838 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off