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post #31 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Michael: You're absolutely right, the towers can't fill the space nearly as well as the sub, but I will say, I'm quite impressed with the output of the L890s, they are much better on the low end than I thought they would be without losing the mids or crisp highs. They're certainly not something an auidophile would own, but they can go screw themselves and get out of my house =P

 

I'm just interested to see if using the L890s and the sub will create a better sound experience or if they will clash and just sound stupid. If the latter is true... well I'll likely be kicking myself in the butt for getting 2 expensive towers rather than 2 expensive (but less expensive) bookshelf speakers.

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post #32 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 03:33 PM
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I use expensive towers for the HT. Not kicking myself they sound great. Plus the av amp crossover isn't a brick wall the speakers play below the crossover. Plus able to use a lower crossover, or perhaps direct bypass with no sub for music.

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post #33 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

I have the sub level in the AVR set to +6 (out of 10) and the gain on the sub set 80% (give or take, it's not labeled). They said in a perfect world you want your YPAO to set the sub as close to 0 as possible. When I turn the gain on the sub up to 100% the YPAO still sets the sub to +5 and the output is fairly weak. When I plug it into my phone, and play a bass test sweep, the output is enough to rattle things off my walls... litterally, pictures and crap falling and breaking, at about 60% gain on the sub and the volume on the phone set to 100%. From what I see, the only part of the equation left is the AVR sub output, or am I missing something?

Though in all honesty, even if I am missing something, it's kind of irrelevant now as I have an RMA started for the Yamaha and the X2000 set to arrive tomorrow. I guess I could always audition them both and see which one I like better and return the one I don't like as much... either way I'm paying return shipping.
Something is definitely wrong. No way you should get a +5 setting on that pb2000 with it turned all the way up.
Its not Yamahas fault unless you just got a bad unit. I'll be interested to see what happens when you get the Denon.

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post #34 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post


Something is definitely wrong. No way you should get a +5 setting on that pb2000 with it turned all the way up.
Its not Yamahas fault unless you just got a bad unit. I'll be interested to see what happens when you get the Denon.

That was my thought as well, especially considering I'm on my second amp for the sub, it's highly unlikely that SVS gave me 2 bad amps. I'm not going to agree with the SVS tech and say this is a Yamaha problem, because let's face it, even the best manufacturers in all fields have a failure rate above 0%. I will however say that THIS Yamaha has a weak sub output, and that will be fixed by getting a different AVR =)

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post #35 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

That was my thought as well, especially considering I'm on my second amp for the sub, it's highly unlikely that SVS gave me 2 bad amps. I'm not going to agree with the SVS tech and say this is a Yamaha problem, because let's face it, even the best manufacturers in all fields have a failure rate above 0%. I will however say that THIS Yamaha has a weak sub output, and that will be fixed by getting a different AVR =)

Same odd behavior with trim levels without YPAO?

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post #36 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Same odd behavior with trim levels without YPAO?

Yeah, when YPAO runs and calibrates I can hardly hear my sub firing, the towers are putting out more Bass than the sub. When I manually set the levels I can hear the sub, but it still has a lot less output than when I connect directly to it. Hell it has less output than my Logitech Z5500 sub does. I think the new AVR will solve that problem.

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post #37 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

I have the sub level in the AVR set to +6 (out of 10) and the gain on the sub set 80% (give or take, it's not labeled). They said in a perfect world you want your YPAO to set the sub as close to 0 as possible. When I turn the gain on the sub up to 100% the YPAO still sets the sub to +5 and the output is fairly weak. When I plug it into my phone, and play a bass test sweep, the output is enough to rattle things off my walls... litterally, pictures and crap falling and breaking, at about 60% gain on the sub and the volume on the phone set to 100%. From what I see, the only part of the equation left is the AVR sub output, or am I missing something?

Though in all honesty, even if I am missing something, it's kind of irrelevant now as I have an RMA started for the Yamaha and the X2000 set to arrive tomorrow. I guess I could always audition them both and see which one I like better and return the one I don't like as much... either way I'm paying return shipping.

I fail to see the reason for some arbitrary zero gain on the sub. That's what level controls are for - to match the output of all your speakers and subs which don't have the same sensitivity. IMO, only an issue if you can't match the levels no matter what settings you use.

In my experience if you got no YPAO error, you are good! YPAO is detecting that the sub is properly balanced with the other speakers.

Connecting your phone to your sub is not much of a test. It's not bass managed for example. I don't know what cutoff you used, and you sent it a full range signal I presume (no intervening crossover or such.) You could drive your subs close to full level with such a setup while having no idea that if you were also playing the upper freq. range you would be immediately reducing volume and trying to cover your ears. Your sub could have been pushing well over 100 dB with such a test.

A better test would be to setup the WHOLE system properly, and playing a nice bass heavy movie, like the Tron remake. Ideally one you are familiar with. My modest Emotiva subs put out amazing bass when playing that movie at moderate volumes.

Hard to diagnose any problem remotely, and I don't want to gainsay you, but it doesn't seem like you did the same tests I would do to confirm the problem, using an SPL meter and test tones. You don't even need an SPL meter to confirm the the sub output is roughly correct using the receiver's own test tones. If, while playing the sub channel, it sounds roughly the same volume as the other channels (understanding that bass might sound a bit quieter to your ears,) I can't conceive of any other issue if you have the system setup to send all the bass to the sub.

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post #38 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hooking my phone up was a means of testing the sub's amp, not testing for balance. When troubleshooting anything you want to try and isolate each component to minimize variables and get accurate results. I know that my sub's amp is working fine and that the sub is capable of great output. I know this because I hooked a media device (my phone) to test the sub without any other variables.

As for an SPL meter or other instruments I don't own,they would be of little use to me because 1. I don't own them or have access to them. 2. I was trying to diagnose why my sub was barely audible, not get precise measurements.

Think of it as bore sighting my rifle. It won't be accurate enough to hunt with or take to a competition, but it will get me on paper and allow me to dial it in from there.
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post #39 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 09:14 PM
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Testing with your phone would be a good way to make sure it works but is a very poor test of output. Especially as a comparison test to the AVR.

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post #40 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Perhaps people think I'm exaggerating, but the sub was barely audible, I could touch it and barely feel any vibration on the driver when the rest of the system was as loud as I could bear. After swapping the amp it was much better,but the way I diagnosed whether it was the amp/sub or the output was to isolate the amp/sub.

Second test was to see what kind of volume/output the sub/amp is capable of, because it was still really weak when connected to the AVR. I tried new cables with no improvement. That leaves just the AVR.
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post #41 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 09:52 PM
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Doesnt mean the AVR is bad. Could just be a bad setup which is kinda what I suspect. Hundreds of people here are happy with their subs and Yamaha receivers.
Makes no difference though. You have a different one on the way and hopefully it will serve you well.

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post #42 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Doesnt mean the AVR is bad. Could just be a bad setup which is kinda what I suspect. Hundreds of people here are happy with their subs and Yamaha receivers.
Makes no difference though. You have a different one on the way and hopefully it will serve you well.

Could you please point me to the setting in the AVR for "all sub settings maxed and sub barely responds" so I can turn that setting off? I've looked everywhere and can't find it. As for "Hundreds of people here are happy with their subs and Yamaha receivers", I believe i covered that when I said:

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That was my thought as well, especially considering I'm on my second amp for the sub, it's highly unlikely that SVS gave me 2 bad amps. I'm NOT going to agree with the SVS tech and say this is a Yamaha problem, because let's face it, even the best manufacturers in all fields have a failure rate above 0%. I will however say that THIS Yamaha has a weak sub output, and that will be fixed by getting a different AVR =)

(please pay special attention to the words in bold)^ I'm not claiming that Yamaha's are bad AVRs, I can't, I've only owned one. What I am saying is the specific unit occupying space in my living room, has a problem.

 

I'm trying balance my cynicism with humility because I'll be the first to say that I'm a noob here, but I'm not an idiot. After a couple hours of browsing both the sub and AVR manual for all sub settings, troubleshooting with SVS and with Yamaha tech support peeps, reading multiple forums, etc... I have deduced that the AVR simply isn't putting out a strong enough signal. I know that placement can cause/fix nulls, peaks, affect resonance, etc. but placement will not however, create an EMP field that magically reduces the electrical current from the AVR to the Subwoofer, that will be fixed by moving 3" to the right and rotating 20 degrees. I will likely create a new thread to have many in this forum help me with sub placement and other technical aspects once everything is up and running properly, but I have to get everything up and running properly. I will check back in either tonight or tomorrow when I've had a chance to unpack the Denon and may even shoot a couple of videos illustrating the difference.

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post #43 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 09:50 AM
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Have you tried a simple manual calibration using the AVR test tones (or a disc with subwoofer tones) and an SPL meter? I'd start there.
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post #44 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you tried a simple manual calibration using the AVR test tones (or a disc with subwoofer tones) and an SPL meter? I'd start there.

I don't own, have access to and would like to avoid buying an SPL meter at this time. I know the SPL is going to be very useful on the technical side, but there has to be sound projected for it to measure, right? That's like telling me to use my OBD2 scanner on my car when I already know my engine is seized. When you manually turn the gain on the sub to 100%, and then go into the AVR speaker level settings and set the sub to +8 (of 10) and the driver only barely vibrates on a bass tone sweep, there is something wrong. I swapped out the amp and have direct tested the system and know the sub is capable of output, but the AVR, with all things nearly maxed out, can't... leads me to believe the AVR isn't delivering enough signal to the sub/amp. I guess I'll know for sure when I get my new receiver in today.

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post #45 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

I don't own, have access to and would like to avoid buying an SPL meter at this time. I know the SPL is going to be very useful on the technical side, but there has to be sound projected for it to measure, right? That's like telling me to use my OBD2 scanner on my car when I already know my engine is seized. When you manually turn the gain on the sub to 100%, and then go into the AVR speaker level settings and set the sub to +8 (of 10) and the driver only barely vibrates on a bass tone sweep, there is something wrong. I swapped out the amp and have direct tested the system and know the sub is capable of output, but the AVR, with all things nearly maxed out, can't... leads me to believe the AVR isn't delivering enough signal to the sub/amp. I guess I'll know for sure when I get my new receiver in today.

As a last resort you can always do a microprocessor reset (factory reset) on the Yamaha. Look up the Manual for the procedures.
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post #46 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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As a last resort you can always do a microprocessor reset (factory reset) on the Yamaha. Look up the Manual for the procedures.

I will look for that option and give that a try tonight when I get home. I'm assuming the microprocessor is what tells the unit which signals to send out on which channels, handles multiple inputs, dolby encoding, etc?

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post #47 of 52 Old 04-29-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

I will look for that option and give that a try tonight when I get home. I'm assuming the microprocessor is what tells the unit which signals to send out on which channels, handles multiple inputs, dolby encoding, etc?


...and much more...m/p is the Boss, ...if something gets garbled inside the digital domain a reset is due. Do you own a computer? A digital camera? A smart phone? A BD player? A washing machine? A fridge? Etc. You get it, right? wink.gif

BTW, you may even use your smart phone for a simple SPL meter with numerous apps available for download:



(Remark: picture shows noise floor in my living room in the evening with all windows closed, traffic low)

The internal mic works pretty well for speakers with band limited pink noise (500 Hz - 2 kHz) like the internal test tones of AVRs. For subs it may be off by -10 ...-15 dB or so, or in other words: not accurate, but good enough for relative measurements. Give it a try. smile.gif
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post #48 of 52 Old 04-30-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Night and day difference!!! This is what it should be sounding like! There is definitely something wrong with the sub out on that unit. When I hooked up the new Denon, set the gain on the sub to about 60% and ran Audyssey it set the sub level to -5.5 rather than +6-8 with the sub gain set nearly to max. It is considerably more pronounced and clear too. I think everyone was right about the crossovers too. I played with it a bit with some movies playing and using the towers in large with the sub just sounds kind of muddied and dull. I am still very happy with the clarity and range that they provide though.

 

Yamaha lovers, no flaming... I'm saying the particular unit I had was flawed, not all Yamaha's.

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post #49 of 52 Old 04-30-2014, 09:20 AM
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Glad it worked. Enjoy.

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post #50 of 52 Old 04-30-2014, 09:34 AM
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crossover on sub used if speaker level connection made. If using the LFE or pre out to powered sub the croosover is in the avr or source if analog. I set my full range to 80 and use my sub.

piss off then
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post #51 of 52 Old 04-30-2014, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Glad it worked. Enjoy.

Me too!

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Originally Posted by leevit View Post

crossover on sub used if speaker level connection made. If using the LFE or pre out to powered sub the croosover is in the avr or source if analog. I set my full range to 80 and use my sub.

I'm going to try setting the crossover on my towers to 80 later this week when I have some more time to play around.

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post #52 of 52 Old 05-02-2014, 01:59 PM
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I was doubting SVS more than you Tyrellm. You had said that SVS had said there was some issue with Yamaha sub outs, and I had never experienced that, so I had to question it. I am glad you are making progress with your issue. It sounds like you kept your mind open, and did a good job of trying out various options so I applaud you for your efforts. Sounds like SVS took the lazy option of blaming the other guy (in this case they were right though smile.gif

"But this one goes up to 11"
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