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post #1 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

 

Let me first start by saying, please forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still new to the AVS world, I just got my set up about 2 weeks ago and had a host of problems and had speakers replaced, SVS sent me a replacement amp, etc... However it's all up and running now and I'm trying to get it just where I want it.

 

My set up is as follows (Running in 5.1 currently):
Center: JBL LC2

Front R&L: JBL L890s

Surrounds: JBL L820s

Subwoofer SVS PB2000

 

 

I'm running the JBL Stuid L series system currently from a Yamaha HTR7065, but that's about to go back as I have a Denon X2000 on the way. Is there a way, with either of these AVRs to allow the L890 towers to play full range sound without cutting off the sub? I know that when they're set to "large" the sub doesn't get any signal from the AVR, but when they're set to "small" all the LFE and low frequencies get sent to the sub. The L890s have two 8" woofers each, and put out some good quality sound from 30Hz and up, and I'd like to utilize them, especially for the mid range bass, but I would like the sub to play everything from about 110Hz and below. Is there a way to make the 30-110Hz range play on both the towers and the sub? Or is the crossover more like a boundary line and there's no way to share a frequency range?

 

Note: I determined the tones mentioned by running the bass test from auidocheck.net (http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencychecklow.php)

 

Thanks for all the help =)

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post #2 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:25 PM
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I have a Yamaha RX-V773 and set it up in bi-amp mode with the front speakers wired to the back/bi-amp terminals and ran RCA Y cables from the L/R Pre out inputs and another from the LFE and into the sub. Plays Pure Direct and standard modes how you are describing works great
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post #3 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:33 PM
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Set those to small 40hz. Then set your sub to small 40hz.

Why would you send bass to sub + mains? Duplicated bass.

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post #4 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Set those to small 40hz. Then set your sub to small 40hz.

Why would you send bass to sub + mains? Duplicated bass.

Perhaps I'm missing something in the audio setup, but I only have Large or Small options for the speakers and the sub's only options are "use" or "none" when I select "use" it gives me "normal" or "reverse". Then there's a cross over that I can adjust. But when I set the speakers to small, they seem to lose all of the low end.

As for the why, I just want to see if they clash or if it will enrich the sound at all, or even provide a bit more punch or kick in the mid bass range. Again, I'm new to HT auido, but I know that in car audio, the smaller 10" subs tend to punch harder, but lack the deep bass of the 13" subs, but the 13" subs don't punch quite as hard as the 10" subs. I figured if it sounded like crap, I could just turn it back off.

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post #5 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:41 PM
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page 154 of your manual. Adjust crossover of the speakers.

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Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #6 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

page 154 of your manual. Adjust crossover of the speakers.

The manual that came with the AVR (was a PDF on a CD) only has 136 pages.

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post #7 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:43 PM
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http://assets.denoneu.com/DocumentMaster/UK/AVRX2000E2_ENG_CD-ROM_IM_v00A.pdf

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Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #8 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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That's the disconnect. I'm still on the Yamaha HTR 7065. My Denon X2000 doesn't arrive until Tuesday. I'm glad to know that I will have the option to try on the new AVR though.

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post #9 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

That's the disconnect. I'm still on the Yamaha HTR 7065

Setup > Speaker Setup > Manual Setup > Config > Bass Out = Both.

That will allow you to play your speakers full range (set as large) plus also send below your selected crossover to the subs as well.
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post #10 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
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Then set your sub to small 40hz.

How on earth do you set a sub to small...???
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post #11 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't see a bass out in the speaker config. Here's a picture of my menu (perhaps it needs a firmware update?)
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post #12 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:20 PM
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crossover on the sub to 40hz

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #13 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:23 PM
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You have a decent sub!

I would cross your towers at 80Hz and the fact that they can play lower would not be wasted since a frequencis cut off is not a brick wall.
At first, I also tought it was a waste of a good tower to set the crossover so much above of what they can do.
After many years of try-in and out different crossover setting, I settle on 80 Hz for all speakers and let the sub do his job, bass only (as long you spend the time to find the best spot for it).

At the end is try and experement and have fun doing it.

Best of luck and enjoy what ever is your preference.

Ray

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post #14 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:23 PM
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Hi,

Understand that you are new to HT like each and everyone of us was once in the beginning and also understand that you'd like to experiment. No problem with that, really, actually that's the way to go, eh? Nonetheless, I'd recommend you a good read on the subject, the blog called "Small vs. Large". (Link in my sig). These guys also did their experiments institutionally and commercially and came up with something already known by the name of "Bass Management". Please do read and come back with questions if any. Hope this helps. smile.gif

Take care! smile.gif
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post #15 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

crossover on the sub to 40hz

Crossover is to be set in the AVR not on the sub. Best is to bypass any crossover circuitry on the subwoofer, but if not possible then set the knob on the backside of the sub called "crossover" to its max.
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post #16 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post

You have a decent sub!

I would cross your towers at 80Hz and the fact that they can play lower would not be wasted since a frequencies cut off is not a brick wall.
At first, I also thought it was a waste of a good tower to set the crossover so much above of what they can do.
After many years of try-in and out different crossover setting, I settle on 80 Hz for all speakers and let the sub do his job, bass only (as long you spend the time to find the best spot for it).

At the end is try and experiment and have fun doing it.

Best of luck and enjoy what ever is your preference.

Ray

+1. All agreed. I do/did exactly the same:)
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post #17 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

I don't see a bass out in the speaker config. Here's a picture of my menu (perhaps it needs a firmware update?)

With that config you are showing all the speakers are on small. If you set the fronts to large then the extra bass option could be used to get the subs to play as well.

Plus what options are available under "Subwoofer"?
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post #18 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi,

Understand that you are new to HT like each and everyone of us was once in the beginning and also understand that you'd like to experiment. No problem with that, really, actually that's the way to go, eh? Nonetheless, I'd recommend you a good read on the subject, the blog called "Small vs. Large". (Link in my sig). These guys also did their experiments institutionally and commercially and came up with something already known by the name of "Bass Management". Please do read and come back with questions if any. Hope this helps. smile.gif

Take care! smile.gif

This is where I did change my mind about setting the crossover.
A Big thanks to you for the good info on the link.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

crossover on the sub to 40hz

Crossover is to be set in the AVR not on the sub. Best is to bypass any crossover circuitry on the subwoofer, but if not possible then set the knob on the backside of the sub called "crossover" to its max.

Big +1
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post

You have a decent sub!

I would cross your towers at 80Hz and the fact that they can play lower would not be wasted since a frequencies cut off is not a brick wall.
At first, I also thought it was a waste of a good tower to set the crossover so much above of what they can do.
After many years of try-in and out different crossover setting, I settle on 80 Hz for all speakers and let the sub do his job, bass only (as long you spend the time to find the best spot for it).

At the end is try and experiment and have fun doing it.

Best of luck and enjoy what ever is your preference.

Ray

+1. All agreed. I do/did exactly the same:)

I guess you and I did the same, experement and lots of readind from other members.
I always enjoy reading from other members with more experience/experement and sometime we disagree but it is all this forum is all about.
Pass knowledge on and make your own decision.

Hopfully the OP reply and let us know his/her personal preference.

Best regards.


Ray

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post #19 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I vanished, my friend was throwing a surprise birthday party for his wife. Thanks to everyone who contributed. 

 

Kiwi: You're right, once I got the speakers set to large, I was able to use the "Extra Bass" option which was exactly what I wanted, it allowed me to utilize my towers and my sub. As for the options under "Subwoofer", it's "None" and "Use" and then if you choose "Use" there's a sub-menu for "Normal" or "Reverse". Now I'll have to experiment more tomorrow to see about setting the EQ range for each speaker to get it where I want it.

 

Darthray: I do have a good sub, but I feel as though it would be a waste of good towers to not utilize them, or at least try to and see how it sounds. I also thought that If I could get the bass coming from multiple locations it could help eliminate any nulls and hopefully provide a more rich sound (in theory).

 

Mogorf: I will try and give your link a read tomorrow and see what I can glean from it. I always like to research and learn from other's experiences, but I also like to experiment, if for no other reason than for the fun of it. Also I do have the sub set to "LFE", which to my understanding means it will play whatever signal it is given (essentially turning off the crossover).

 

I hope I can play with this some more tomorrow or the day after and see about getting it tuned exactly where I want it. I'll check back in with some results after I have a chance to test and play with it.

 

Thanks again guys!

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post #20 of 52 Old 04-27-2014, 11:34 PM
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Why are you getting rid of the 7065?

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post #21 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:14 AM
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The L/R speakers have to be positioned for imaging, which may not be ideal for bass response. The sub can go wherever works best for bass.

Also, double bass is generally not recommended because of phase cancellation issues between the two sources. Plus, you often get boomy sounding bass.

But, of course, try all sorts of setups and use whatever sounds best to you.
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post #22 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Crossover is to be set in the AVR not on the sub. Best is to bypass any crossover circuitry on the subwoofer, but if not possible then set the knob on the backside of the sub called "crossover" to its max.

I know.

I mean set the crossover on the av amp, for the subwoofer at 40hz. Mains at small 40hz. I wouldn't set your mains to large, I can't find any FR spec for them, no +/- figure so could be anything. But for ported speakers of that size, probably 40hz is a good setting.

I wouldn't use double bass, it'll just sound too bloaty.

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post #23 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
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I know.

I mean set the crossover on the av amp, for the subwoofer at 40hz. Mains at small 40hz. I wouldn't set your mains to large, I can't find any FR spec for them, no +/- figure so could be anything. But for ported speakers of that size, probably 40hz is a good setting.

I wouldn't use double bass, it'll just sound too bloaty.

What avrs have separate crossover settings for subs and speakers?

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post #24 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Bond: I'm ditching the 7065 because it seems to have fairly weak sub output. I swapped the amp in the sub and that helped quite a bit, but it's still pretty weak. The guy I was working with at SVS said they run into this quite often with Yamahas, that as a whole, they seem to have less sub output than others. That being the case, I hooked my phone up to the sub directly (3.5mm to RCA stereo cable) and played some bass tones, it had plenty of output when directly connected to the media but was very weak running from the AVR (I tried it with 3 different cables). Rather than just get another 7065 replacement, I decided to try the X2000. We'll see if that is any better.

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post #25 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

Bond: I'm ditching the 7065 because it seems to have fairly weak sub output. I swapped the amp in the sub and that helped quite a bit, but it's still pretty weak. The guy I was working with at SVS said they run into this quite often with Yamahas, that as a whole, they seem to have less sub output than others. That being the case, I hooked my phone up to the sub directly (3.5mm to RCA stereo cable) and played some bass tones, it had plenty of output when directly connected to the media but was very weak running from the AVR (I tried it with 3 different cables). Rather than just get another 7065 replacement, I decided to try the X2000. We'll see if that is any better.
Interesting. Please keep us posted.

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post #26 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

Bond: I'm ditching the 7065 because it seems to have fairly weak sub output.

Sounds odd...?? What do the volume trim levels end up at..?
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post #27 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:10 PM
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Makes sense to experiment of course.

You might find that full range towers can't do what a powered sub can do. When I listen to my towers in full range I immediately recognize the benefit the sub was providing. If not, your towers are impressive or your sub is not very good or setup wrong wink.gif

If you find, that the towers only, no sub is inferior to using your sub with bass management on there doesn't seem to be much hope using both for bass will sound better. Just my opinion based on experience. Good luck smile.gif

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post #28 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrellm View Post

Bond: I'm ditching the 7065 because it seems to have fairly weak sub output. I swapped the amp in the sub and that helped quite a bit, but it's still pretty weak. The guy I was working with at SVS said they run into this quite often with Yamahas, that as a whole, they seem to have less sub output than others. That being the case, I hooked my phone up to the sub directly (3.5mm to RCA stereo cable) and played some bass tones, it had plenty of output when directly connected to the media but was very weak running from the AVR (I tried it with 3 different cables). Rather than just get another 7065 replacement, I decided to try the X2000. We'll see if that is any better.

Hello

I have owned MANY Yamaha receivers and NEVER had an issue with this. I have never owned SVS subs, but I was always able to find an adjustment that worked for every sub. That is, using a sound meter, I could get all channels to their proper level. When I first started using powered subs, I misunderstood them. I thought they were not working properly as I expected something from them that was wrong. I expected more, for lack of a better word, mid-bass.

Over many years of owning all sorts of setups, I have better understood the role of a powered sub, and never had a setup that sounded weak.

I suggest the possibility of a sound meter, and using the built in test tones, you can measure the sub output, and if you truly can't get to the proper SPL by adjusting subwoofer trim (on the receiver) and level ( on the sub) then the receiver or sub has an issue.

I could be totally wrong, and somehow Yamaha started putting out insufficient voltage on their sub output but I doubt it. I could be totally wrong, but I find it hard to believe the SVS's input is so insensitive that Yamahas can't drive it.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #29 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:20 PM
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I have found some units have weird test tones for the sub. Don't have a great sub connected to my Yamaha, however for a Sherbourne 7010 there is something wrong with the sub test tone. If I set by ear in a movie/music, then run test tone there is hardly any output (so if I calbrated with the built in tone, subwoofer would be insanely loud once I play music/movies)

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post #30 of 52 Old 04-28-2014, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I have the sub level in the AVR set to +6 (out of 10) and the gain on the sub set 80% (give or take, it's not labeled). They said in a perfect world you want your YPAO to set the sub as close to 0 as possible. When I turn the gain on the sub up to 100% the YPAO still sets the sub to +5 and the output is fairly weak. When I plug it into my phone, and play a bass test sweep, the output is enough to rattle things off my walls... litterally, pictures and crap falling and breaking, at about 60% gain on the sub and the volume on the phone set to 100%. From what I see, the only part of the equation left is the AVR sub output, or am I missing something?

 

Though in all honesty, even if I am missing something, it's kind of irrelevant now as I have an RMA started for the Yamaha and the X2000 set to arrive tomorrow. I guess I could always audition them both and see which one I like better and return the one I don't like as much... either way I'm paying return shipping.

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