The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 11:33 AM
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Speaking of the 5200- and I'll apologize in advance for perhaps not studying closer- will the/can I assume the following will be onboard?

1. 11 channel (or 13- but I'd bet they leave 13 to the 7200) output by way of preouts?
2. Atmos.
3. Ability to run 2 channel hdmi to the zones.
4. Even better, the ability to downmix multichannel audio to stereo for the zones?
5. Stereo spdif to the zones?
6. XT 32 with sub HT?


I think most if not all of this will be there, and again, if so, you really wonder what's left for the 7200 outside of some "better" (lol) DACs and prolly a step up in the "build quality" dept.

I guess I'm prolly looking for an x4000 with atmos, 11 channel+ capability and hdmi 2.0 (and HDCP 2.2) lol.

Thanks for filling in the blanks.

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post #302 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure we know about #1 yet. The photo posted earlier of the back of the 5200 clearly showed 13 pre-outs in addition to the two subs (so 15 total). The photo is a bit blurry but I can tell they are labled Front, Center, Surround, Surround Back, Front Wide, Height 1 and Height 2. The presence of two pairs of height channels (plus other scuttle) seems to imply that Atmos is clearly on board.



The open question is whether it allows 13 channels simultaneously or if it just allows connection of up to 13.2 channels but can only operate 11 at a time. This (11 vs. 13 channels simultaneously) could be a potential differentiator of 5200 vs. 7200. The photo also shows only 11 channels of speaker posts so that could be evidence that it can only do 11 at a time?

Another differentiator vs. the 7200 appears to be the HDMI zone output; on the back of the 5200 photo it's labeled "Zone 2" so (like the X3000, X4000 and presumably their replacements) the Zone HDMI output is tied to Zone 2, whereas the 4520CI (and thus presumably the 7200) has the HDMI zone output on a separate Zone 4 (thus allowing two other stereo audio zones distinct from the HDMI output).

I think the 7200 will also be physically larger like the 4520 vs X4000, and presumably have better amps. I'm sure there will be other difference to justify the price tag.

Numbers 5 and 6 seem a near certainly since they are already features on the X4000.

As to #4, I am skeptical. Nothing I've seen so far seems to indicate a change from the X3000/X4000 model, which is not an "internal stereo downmix" of incoming multich signals but rather an EDID based solution which tells the source that the sink wants 2ch PCM max when the other zone is in use.
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post #303 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 12:28 PM
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I'm probably wrong, but I thought I read on one of the French sites that while the 4100/5200/7200 all have 13.2 pre outs, the 4100 was limited to 9 ch simultaneously, the 5200 to 11 ch and the 7200 had the full enchilada 13 ch ( all not including sub channels). Also the amps got more channels and/or more powerful up the line (7x125, 9x140, 9x150 at 8 ohms respectively).

On the road for work at the moment and unable to spend the time searching through those sites on my phone, but that is at least how I remember it. Which would make sense from a marketing perspective as well. Of course, it's best to wait and see what actually is released in the USA.
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post #304 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikclown View Post

After the leaks I have seen I pretty much have made my mind up to get the avr-x5200w (depending on price). I already have everything else I am going to run with for my system which I have built on a budget. I could probably go lower on the AVR and upgrade some speakers but I like my Klipsch setup:

1- Samsung UN65f9000 UHD
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2- Synergy F-20 Front Wides
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2- Synergy S-10 Rears
1- Synergy Sub-12HG 12" Sub
1- Emotiva UPA-200 2 Channel Amp

I am currently using 2 Bose 161s for my surrounds but I think I will replace those with the Synergy S-20s if I can find a good deal on them just so everything is in the same timber and I may add a second Sub although my neighbors already kind of hate me. Now I just need the receiver to plug everything into! Come on September!

I'm pretty sure the current Synergy line has been discontinued so you better act fast if you want NIB S-20s. Klipsch.com still has S-20s available at MSRP, but Newegg has slashed the prices on the Synergy towers which usually indicates they're on their way out.
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post #305 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I'm pretty sure the current Synergy line has been discontinued so you better act fast if you want NIB S-20s.

Yeah, I may just look into alternate choices. I should have bought them when they were less than 300.00.

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post #306 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 06:44 PM
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Yeah I'm all but certain they'll neuter the 5200 and leave it with 11 channel capability. Again, after the top tier room EQ, atmos, multi zone with a dedicated second hdmi, and the other garb, there's not a ton of meaningful stuff left.

I hope to be wrong of course!

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post #307 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yeah I'm all but certain they'll neuter the 5200 and leave it with 11 channel capability. Again, after the top tier room EQ, atmos, multi zone with a dedicated second hdmi, and the other garb, there's not a ton of meaningful stuff left.

I hope to be wrong of course!

James

Atmos isn't meaningful. It's a toy for the crazy people !
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post #308 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by krozman View Post

Atmos isn't meaningful. It's a toy for the crazy people !
I have to assume you're kidding. Even with a standard 5.1 setup you can take advantage of the benefits Atmos provides.
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post #309 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 07:56 PM
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Sorta kidding. With unlimited money I would totally do it. Just thinking about what it requires to run a proper Atmos setup, and the money put in cannot equal what you can get out of it. That's why i call it crazy. More speakers (borderline ridiculous amounts of them). More power. More space. Cost of receiver hundreds higher. The amount of money to run atmos, I could just run a standard 7.2 and triple the quality of my speakers and probably have a better experience. Be honest, whats the bare minimum speaker setup to do an Atmos properly and whats that going to run you. Given a $10,000 home theatre budget, would an atmos setup even crack the list of possibilities for you?


I know for a fact your theatre will be great, but man, it's taking a step from "I will impress all my friends" to "I would impress any person on this planet."
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post #310 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 08:03 PM
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Just wanna impress Moi; got enough speakers already; but, I plan to continue to improve them & SWs, then upgrade AVR...

Wish I'd done that 1st...

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post #311 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 08:04 PM
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I'll start taking Atmos seriously when I see a format, a playback device, a studio interested in the technology and content to actually buy.

Hear me now, Listen to me later....
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post #312 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 08:15 PM
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^^^ Good points, Tom. There are more & more 7.1 releases; but, 5.1 still seems to be industry standard.

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post #313 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 08:30 PM
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I love that people on this forum are committed to the future and Atmos might be up there with our dream setups. Schwa is doing what I might be doing in a decade so in most ways I'm jealous. My argument is more of a risk/benefit analysis, and usually by showing my ignorance in writing I am usually properly educated as to what the future holds.
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post #314 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

I'll start taking Atmos seriously when I see a format, a playback device, a studio interested in the technology and content to actually buy.
Format - Already exists in theaters; has since 2012
Playback device - Will work with the BD player you already have
Interested studio - You are aware that Atmos has been a theatrical format since 2012, right? There have been more than 60 theatrical Atmos releases to date.
Content - Well, that's the long pole. But since there's no requirement to remix theatrical Atmos soundtracks for the home, one could assume it'd be even easier for the studios to include an Atmos track than it would for them to include the legacy channel-based remixes.
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post #315 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by krozman View Post

Sorta kidding. With unlimited money I would totally do it. Just thinking about what it requires to run a proper Atmos setup, and the money put in cannot equal what you can get out of it. That's why i call it crazy. More speakers (borderline ridiculous amounts of them). More power. More space. Cost of receiver hundreds higher. The amount of money to run atmos, I could just run a standard 7.2 and triple the quality of my speakers and probably have a better experience. Be honest, whats the bare minimum speaker setup to do an Atmos properly and whats that going to run you. Given a $10,000 home theatre budget, would an atmos setup even crack the list of possibilities for you?


I know for a fact your theatre will be great, but man, it's taking a step from "I will impress all my friends" to "I would impress any person on this planet."

Well, I've had a 7.2 setup since 2008. I've just upgraded my speakers to 2x Klipsch RF-7IIs, a Klipsch RC-64II, and 4x Klipsch RS-62IIs (I'm completely satisfied with my 2x SVS PC12-NSDs right now), but that didn't have anything to do with Atmos. I plan to add two Klipsch RB-81IIs as front heights in about a month -- I can use these with DSX and/or DTS Neo:X with my current Denon AVR-4520CI which has 9 amps. Again, nothing to do with Atmos. In fact, the speaker upgrade was all about maximizing the quality of my current 7.2 setup by getting the top-of-the-line Klipsch Reference speakers. I love my Klipsches, so anything more expensive and/or from a different brand is of no value to me.

In reality, nine speakers is probably plenty IHMO to reap significant benefits from Atmos, but I figure I'll add up to four in-ceiling speakers for a complete 13.2 setup. Since you asked, I figure about $1100 street for those (probably Klipsch CDT-5800-C IIs), plus a power amp for the additional channels (an Emotiva XPA-5 at $1000 seems suitable), plus $2k for the new X7000W (assuming it streets for the same price as my 4520), and I'm looking at $4100-ish for the Atmos upgrade. That seems reasonable considering what other upgrades have cost, and I'll accomplish it over the course of several months (heck, the X7000W won't be available until January, so that gives me plenty of time to space out the remaining purchases) so it's not like I'll be coughing up all the cash at once.

$4100 is a good chunk of change but nothing compared to what some of the more well-heeled folks on the forum spend!
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post #316 of 1733 Old 06-10-2014, 09:43 PM
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Should be Sweet!

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post #317 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Format - Already exists in theaters; has since 2012
Playback device - Will work with the BD player you already have
Interested studio - You are aware that Atmos has been a theatrical format since 2012, right? There have been more than 60 theatrical Atmos releases to date.
Content - Well, that's the long pole. But since there's no requirement to remix theatrical Atmos soundtracks for the home, one could assume it'd be even easier for the studios to include an Atmos track than it would for them to include the legacy channel-based remixes.

Just looked at the Dolby site and there are over 100 movies released in the format, though some appear to be foreign, with several more on the way. The list maxed out at like 117 or so including upcoming movies.

I would thoroughly ok with doing atmos in my place. Gives me an excuse to have to buy new gear. biggrin.gif plus I have the space for it too.

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Many of you likely saw the notice that AVSForum is going to be down today from 11am - 4pm EST. Turns out that Vertical Scope has purchased the site from Huddler and is returning it to the former vBulletin platform (from the current Huddler platform) which was used prior to Huddler purchasing the forum back in 2012.

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post #319 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krozman View Post

Sorta kidding. With unlimited money I would totally do it. Just thinking about what it requires to run a proper Atmos setup, and the money put in cannot equal what you can get out of it. That's why i call it crazy. More speakers (borderline ridiculous amounts of them). More power. More space. Cost of receiver hundreds higher. The amount of money to run atmos, I could just run a standard 7.2 and triple the quality of my speakers and probably have a better experience. Be honest, whats the bare minimum speaker setup to do an Atmos properly and whats that going to run you. Given a $10,000 home theatre budget, would an atmos setup even crack the list of possibilities for you?


I know for a fact your theatre will be great, but man, it's taking a step from "I will impress all my friends" to "I would impress any person on this planet."

 

From what I know, Dolby Atmos won't be much different in principal than the current surround-sound formats in terms of number of speakers required; that is to say, while more is better (up to a point) you don't need to fill your room with speakers in order to benefit from the technology.  How many speakers is "ridiculous" (to use your term)?  If we're being honest and practical, the answer (which most of us don't want to acknowledge) is probably two; therefore, anything more than that is already overkill from that standpoint (just ask my wife).

 

I'm old enough to remember the advent of STEREO and at the time it seemed like an unnecessary gimmick.  (Of course, that was followed by quadrophonic, which did turn out to be a passing fad although it presaged the current surround-sound formats.)

 

Personally, I believe Atmos's object-based format will represent a small but significant improvement for even relatively modest HT installations such as mine.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Just wanna impress Moi; got enough speakers already; but, I plan to continue to improve them & SWs, then upgrade AVR...

Wish I'd done that 1st...

 

Sancho, like you I have the AVR-3311, but mine has been rock solid while yours has unfortunately had some issues.  Still, ever since I added front wides and surround backs to my 7.1 speaker set-up I've been ogling the 4520.  I held off pulling the trigger once word got out about Denon's plans for the new 2014 top-of-the-line models.  I will probably go for either the X5200 or X7200--depending on actual feature set and price point--not just for the Atmos processing but also for the other upgrades over my 3311.  I already have ceiling-mounted surrounds, so at most I'm guessing I would only have to add a second set of front heights to go 13.1 and get maximum benefit from Atmos's capabilities.

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post #320 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

I'm probably wrong, but I thought I read on one of the French sites that while the 4100/5200/7200 all have 13.2 pre outs, the 4100 was limited to 9 ch simultaneously, the 5200 to 11 ch and the 7200 had the full enchilada 13 ch ( all not including sub channels). Also the amps got more channels and/or more powerful up the line (7x125, 9x140, 9x150 at 8 ohms respectively).

On the road for work at the moment and unable to spend the time searching through those sites on my phone, but that is at least how I remember it. Which would make sense from a marketing perspective as well. Of course, it's best to wait and see what actually is released in the USA.

 

That was my impression as well.  But, as you imply, this is just preliminary scuttlebutt from a handful of French sites (some of which are contradictory in the details), not authoritative information; and, the U.S. models will probably differ in some regards from those released in other regions.

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post #321 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Format - Already exists in theaters; has since 2012
Playback device - Will work with the BD player you already have
Interested studio - You are aware that Atmos has been a theatrical format since 2012, right? There have been more than 60 theatrical Atmos releases to date.
Content - There's no requirement to remix theatrical Atmos soundtracks for the home...it might be even easier for the studios to include an Atmos track than it would for them to include the legacy channel-based remixes.

^^^

Exactly. It's curious why people think the benefit of Atmos only comes with a ton of speakers. It will work just as well with 5.1 as it will with 13.2, and it doesn't require you to update anything but a receiver to process it. 

 

Remember the days of choosing DTS or Dolby at the start of a movie?  "Warning, you must have a receiver that can process DTS if you choose this option" etc.  This new process is even easier.  New receivers that can process it will happily do so.  Receivers that can't will IGNORE the extra metadata and process Dolby IIx/z etc.  Everyone wins.


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post #322 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 07:24 AM
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What's the hold up with the release dates for the lower end x models? Is there something they're waiting for? It's just a release date
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post #323 of 1733 Old 06-11-2014, 11:35 PM
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Hey guys, we're back online again after the big changeover!

Have to re-read all those threads again as it looks like there's a few bugs in the transition...

Getting back on topic, can anyone explain in simple terms the improvement in sound quality of Dolby Atmos over the current convention of 7.1 lossless audio such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA?

How much of an improvement is it? Assuming no change in the speaker configuration, is it audible? If so, by how much and where is it noticeable? Is it worth waiting for the higher end Denon models that's going to have this feature?

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post #324 of 1733 Old 06-12-2014, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
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Getting back on topic, can anyone explain in simple terms the improvement in sound quality of Dolby Atmos over the current convention of 7.1 lossless audio such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA?

How much of an improvement is it? Assuming no change in the speaker configuration, is it audible? If so, by how much and where is it noticeable? Is it worth waiting for the higher end Denon models that's going to have this feature?


I think the issue isn't going to be whether Atmos is working. It's whether the content being played on a blu ray supports it to the point where you can hear the awesomeness you just installed like you would in an atmos theatre. An Atmos audio track in a blu ray would go a long way. It's not going to be there for years IMO. If you go atmos you are the future. Just can't personally pull the trigger. Some people are doing it, however, and maybe they can configure the receiver to make movies sound better. Time will tell.
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post #325 of 1733 Old 06-12-2014, 10:49 AM
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I think the issue isn't going to be whether Atmos is working. It's whether the content being played on a blu ray supports it to the point where you can hear the awesomeness you just installed like you would in an atmos theatre. An Atmos audio track in a blu ray would go a long way. It's not going to be there for years IMO. If you go atmos you are the future. Just can't personally pull the trigger. Some people are doing it, however, and maybe they can configure the receiver to make movies sound better. Time will tell.
This really is the thing with the format, if BDs were encoded with an Atmos track now, or very, very soon I would be looking at the new models even after getting an X4000 recently. But until the content is actually there I think I'll just wait for a another generation(or two) of Atmos-equipped models to hit the market before looking seriously at it.
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post #326 of 1733 Old 06-12-2014, 04:03 PM
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This really is the thing with the format, if BDs were encoded with an Atmos track now, or very, very soon I would be looking at the new models even after getting an X4000 recently. But until the content is actually there I think I'll just wait for a another generation(or two) of Atmos-equipped models to hit the market before looking seriously at it.
Technically the Atmos models haven't been announced yet and won't be formally announced until CEDIA. I'd expect there'd also be an indication of the level of studio support at that time. In other words, by the time you're actually able to buy an Atmos-enabled receiver, you should have a pretty good idea of what and when content will be available.

The other question is when/whether DTS-UHD support will be available in the new Atmos receivers or if a firmware update will be able to provide this functionality down the line. If DTS' object-based audio format become the de-facto standard (as has pretty much happened with DTS-HD on BD), it'd really suck to have to buy yet another receiver in a year or two just to support DTS-UHD.
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post #327 of 1733 Old 06-14-2014, 05:09 PM
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Anyone know what the impedance is on the headphone output of this new line of avrs?
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post #328 of 1733 Old 06-15-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa 
Format - Already exists in theaters; has since 2012
Playback device - Will work with the BD player you already have
Interested studio - You are aware that Atmos has been a theatrical format since 2012, right? There have been more than 60 theatrical Atmos releases to date.
Content - There's no requirement to remix theatrical Atmos soundtracks for the home...it might be even easier for the studios to include an Atmos track than it would for them to include the legacy channel-based remixes.

^^^
Exactly. It's curious why people think the benefit of Atmos only comes with a ton of speakers. It will work just as well with 5.1 as it will with 13.2, and it doesn't require you to update anything but a receiver to process it. 
 
Remember the days of choosing DTS or Dolby at the start of a movie?  "Warning, you must have a receiver that can process DTS if you choose this option" etc.  This new process is even easier.  New receivers that can process it will happily do so.  Receivers that can't will IGNORE the extra metadata and process Dolby IIx/z etc.  Everyone wins.

If you have a 5.1 system, atmos will just pass the 5.1 mix down to you. That is the backward compatibility built in.
Where did you read that it will do something else?
I'm curious to catch up if something new was announced.
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post #329 of 1733 Old 06-15-2014, 10:39 AM
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Exactly. It's curious why people think the benefit of Atmos only comes with a ton of speakers. It will work just as well with 5.1 as it will with 13.2, and it doesn't require you to update anything but a receiver to process it. 
 
Remember the days of choosing DTS or Dolby at the start of a movie?  "Warning, you must have a receiver that can process DTS if you choose this option" etc.  This new process is even easier.  New receivers that can process it will happily do so.  Receivers that can't will IGNORE the extra metadata and process Dolby IIx/z etc.  Everyone wins.


If you have a 5.1 system, atmos will just pass the 5.1 mix down to you. That is the backward compatibility built in.
Where did you read that it will do something else?
I'm curious to catch up if something new was announced.
We're saying the same thing. Atmos passes down the normal channels. If the receiver is capable of decoding the extra metadata, it will do that. I was referencing years and years ago when you had to choose the DTS or Dolby track from the beginning menu of a Laserdisc or DVD.
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post #330 of 1733 Old 06-15-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by crimsonblue View Post

Exactly. It's curious why people think the benefit of Atmos only comes with a ton of speakers. It will work just as well with 5.1 as it will with 13.2, and it doesn't require you to update anything but a receiver to process it. 
 
Remember the days of choosing DTS or Dolby at the start of a movie?  "Warning, you must have a receiver that can process DTS if you choose this option" etc.  This new process is even easier.  New receivers that can process it will happily do so.  Receivers that can't will IGNORE the extra metadata and process Dolby IIx/z etc.  Everyone wins.


If you have a 5.1 system, atmos will just pass the 5.1 mix down to you. That is the backward compatibility built in.
Where did you read that it will do something else?
I'm curious to catch up if something new was announced.
We're saying the same thing. Atmos passes down the normal channels. If the receiver is capable of decoding the extra metadata, it will do that. I was referencing years and years ago when you had to choose the DTS or Dolby track from the beginning menu of a Laserdisc or DVD.
OK but what extra meta data is included in the 5.1 mix?
I don't think what you will hear will be much different if at all from a normal 5.1 HD audio mix.
The extra atmos stuff will be for channels above the 5.1 setup.
Heights, wides extra surrounds, etc.
Not really anything in the primary 5.1 mix.

So again, the benefits will be small to none for 5.1 setups.

If you have info contrary to that I'm all ears and would like to read up on it.
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