The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sikclown View Post
I am holding out for either the x4100 or x5200. And you, sir, will be getting a call about one of those
Yes indeed. Both fine models to be sure with both being capable of Dolby Atmos with 4 processors vice only 1 on the X3100W and lower models, with the X4100W being able to expand to 9CH and the X5200W being able to expand from 9CH to 11CH. Note too that the X5200W will have some better components, with gold plated connectors and mfr'd in Japan like the new flagship X7200W. Also important to note, that Dolby Atmos will come pre-loaded on the X4100W and higher models; however as DTS is still developing UHD, this will not be featured, rather possibly added via a firmware update.

Another bit of info as well ... turns out the reason that Onkyo chose not to continue using Audyssey in their 2014 models is due to the higher processing power required for XT32 with Dolby Atmos (eg. increasing from the 2 on the X4000 to the 4 on the X4100W/X5200W). So they opted for their own version which requires less processing power.

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post #362 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 03:21 PM
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Looks like the X1100 is showing in stock at Best Buy
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/denon-12...&skuId=4093001
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post #363 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 03:43 PM
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Do we know the US MSRPs on the full line-up yet?
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post #364 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 03:44 PM
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I am wondering how much of a "step up" these new models are compared to my 2113ci model I own. I don't have a 4K tv, nor HDMI 2. Maybe in a few years, but I like the built in wifi and bluetooth. I wonder if performance for a 5.1 system would be identical with these new models over my older model.... Anyone upgrade from a 2113ci or equivalent model and care to comment?

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post #365 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
I doubt it is anything like it at all.
If I'm not mistaken it was FM who said Atmos won't do anything to a 5.1 system.
I figure he would have good info on the subject.
Roger Dressler pretty much booted FM out of the park on that one. FM knows a lot about the commercial side of Atmos but that isn't the same thing as the domestic side.
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post #366 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
I'll start taking Atmos seriously when I see a format, a playback device, a studio interested in the technology and content to actually buy.
Format is Bluray. Playback device is a Bluray player. Content is already being produced for Bluray Atmos releases, including back catalog. Eg, Chicago and Die Hard have been remixed for Atmos already. I doubt they are going to re-release those into theaters, so the only other purpose is for Bluray release.
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post #367 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post


You mean banana plugs that push into the speaker binding posts? (Clips are quite different.) European audio devices are not allowed to use them because they're identical to their wall-socket power connections. I expect that U.S. models will accept them, though. The binding posts might be a little too close together for the type which has a pair of plugs in a single fixed unit, so you might have to use individual plugs: one for each speaker wire.
The European models come with a small plastic plug installed in each binding post hole. To use banana plugs (as I do here in the UK) one simply pries out the little plug and throws it into the trash where it belongs, while at the same time wondering just how stupid someone has to be to plug their speakers into the mains.
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post #368 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArTourter View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Selden Ball 

You mean banana plugs that push into the speaker binding posts? (Clips are quite different.) European audio devices are not allowed to use them because they're identical to their wall-socket power connections.


I really wonder where you get that from??? we have banana plugs just as you do! I have them on my X4000 and all my speakers! And that is not just because I am in the UK and we have rectangular pins on our plugs. I have the same banana plugs in devices I got in France. Check any of the European Denon sites!
Selden is quite correct. It is against EU law to allow banana plugs, for the reason he states. This is why the units all come with little black plugs in the holes. Of course, everyone just removes them, as you and have done, so we can use our banana plugs. Such is the idiocy of the EU and its millions of insane regulations.
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post #369 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1000 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by ArTourter 


It is true that the manual doesn't mention it but the unit actually comes with black plastic plugs in the holes and these can be removed to use banana plugs if you look at the photos on the site, you will see the units with the plastic plugs removed. I did not have any of these plugs on my tannoy speakers but I suspect that is because they are place in a rather weird configuration.

If you have a look at avlands reviews (rather long but quite in depths) they show how to use banana plugs on the AVRs, here is the link to the AVR-4520 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...4aDOtkxk#t=228) but the X1000 and above are the same as well as this year's models. From what I can see from the models of the previous year, if the images are accurate, they all appear to have these black removable plugs.




That looks quite easy to do on that video! I tried it once with a 3805 I think it was, but I did not succeed and never tried again (did not look very good when I tried to sell it). I did remove them with my former speakers though, to use banana plugs. Now I am all bare. This new connector layout will make it much easier to work with bare wire. I hate to rewire with the current layout because it's all much to close together (had to do that often because of two failed repair attempts before getting a brand new one).

I just tried it on my 4520; a nail is enough now to remove them. But it is still forbidden to do so
If they are in really tight, an easy way to remove them is to use a small self-tapping screw. Screw it a little way into the black plastic plug then pull it out with pliers. (Or whatever Americans call pliers - they seem to have a whole unique set of names for tools ).
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post #370 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Format is Bluray. Playback device is a Bluray player. Content is already being produced for Bluray Atmos releases, including back catalog. Eg, Chicago and Die Hard have been remixed for Atmos already. I doubt they are going to re-release those into theaters, so the only other purpose is for Bluray release.
Great, let us know when we can add those titles to the cart. Think we'll see anything in 2014?

Does anyone know how many channels are required to take advantage of all the data available on an Atmos home release? Am I wrong to assume 13.2? I couldn't imagine D&M releasing a product that short changes the upcoming releases.
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post #371 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
If they are in really tight, an easy way to remove them is to use a small self-tapping screw. Screw it a little way into the black plastic plug then pull it out with pliers. (Or whatever Americans call pliers - they seem to have a whole unique set of names for tools ).
So we can blame you guys for those infernal plugs I recently had the displeasure of pulling out of my new speakers' binding posts?

And pliers are pliers, although I'm not sure what the hell you guys are referring to when you talk about "spanners."
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post #372 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
Great, let us know when we can add those titles to the cart. Think we'll see anything in 2014?
Given that Atmos appears to be a co-ordinated, industry-wide launch, I am expecting that Atmos Blurays will appear to coincide with the launch of Atmos-enabled hardware in September.

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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

Does anyone know how many channels are required to take advantage of all the data available on an Atmos home release? Am I wrong to assume 13.2? I couldn't imagine D&M releasing a product that short changes the upcoming releases.
You misunderstand what Atmos is about and how it works. Atmos will work with soundbars and TV sets - there is no 'requirement' along the lines you mention. Atmos will scale to however many speakers it finds in the playback system, along with their known (to the AVR) locations.
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post #373 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
So we can blame you guys for those infernal plugs I recently had the displeasure of pulling out of my new speakers' binding posts?

And pliers are pliers, although I'm not sure what the hell you guys are referring to when you talk about "spanners."
Hey don't blame us! Our mains plugs have square pins not round ones, which makes the application of the European legislation even more stupid for us.

Thanks for the pliers info. I once mentioned 'spanners' to an American friend and got that blank look ... (wrenches for anyone in the dark). :
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post #374 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:06 PM
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Spanner wrenches are in common use on Tanks, as in M1A1 Abrams & Small Arms, such as the M4 Carbine (M16 Shorty), among other things...
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post #375 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:18 PM
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Spanner wrenches are in common use on Tanks, as in M1A1 Abrams & Small Arms, such as the M4 Carbine (M16 Shorty), among other things...
There you go... we're in there where it counts Give us Limeys our spanners (wrenches), and our taps (fawcetts) and pavements (sidewalks) and car boots (trunks) and our cobblers (shoe menders) and boilers (furnaces) and dustbins (trash cans) and plasters (Bandaids) and our nappies (diapers) and our bollocks* (nonsense) and we're happy

*Caution advised....
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post #376 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Format is Bluray. Playback device is a Bluray player. Content is already being produced for Bluray Atmos releases, including back catalog. Eg, Chicago and Die Hard have been remixed for Atmos already. I doubt they are going to re-release those into theaters, so the only other purpose is for Bluray release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Given that Atmos appears to be a co-ordinated, industry-wide launch, I am expecting that Atmos Blurays will appear to coincide with the launch of Atmos-enabled hardware in September.



You misunderstand what Atmos is about and how it works. Atmos will work with soundbars and TV sets - there is no 'requirement' along the lines you mention. Atmos will scale to however many speakers it finds in the playback system, along with their known (to the AVR) locations.
Ok, for TV speakers you tell the receiver 2 channels up front and it does some stereo Atmos thing. In a traditional 7.1 systems, same thing. The reciever process the data and delivers it to the speakers.


Now we start adding more. Where do we put them? Are you saying we can put them anywhere and there is no general guidelines?

Say I take my 7.1 system and add 6 additional speakers up front like wide 1-2 and 3. I tell the reciever where they are and the processing will pan left to right through all 9 speakers if need be. OK, I get it.

But there has to be a limit to the amount of physical locations the AVR has to put a channel.

If I took those 6 channels out of the front and stacked them on top of each other between the surround back left and right, would these D&M AVR's allow that configuration?

Unless you had a microphone array setup in your room, you'd have to tell the AVR where there speakers are located. Just wondering what those processing limitations are going to be.
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post #377 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You misunderstand what Atmos is about and how it works. Atmos will work with soundbars and TV sets - there is no 'requirement' along the lines you mention. Atmos will scale to however many speakers it finds in the playback system, along with their known (to the AVR) locations.
Keith, along these lines, as I await the introduction of the X5200 and X7200, I've been wondering whether I will want to expand my 11.1 set-up to 13.1 to accommodate the second set of height speakers for Atmos given that my R/L surrounds are in-ceiling speakers. Do you know whether Atmos would recognize their vertical location and therefore utilize these speakers as a second set of heights? And would adding rear heights therefore be redundant or at best unnecessary?
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post #378 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 05:51 PM
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I found a standard drywall screw to be perfect. Two twists, then pull out the cap!

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post #379 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
Great, let us know when we can add those titles to the cart. Think we'll see anything in 2014?

Does anyone know how many channels are required to take advantage of all the data available on an Atmos home release? Am I wrong to assume 13.2? I couldn't imagine D&M releasing a product that short changes the upcoming releases.
On the D&M models, the Atmos marketing will be focusing on the additional "ceiling" mounted speakers added to either a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configuration, so on the X4100W, either 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (9CH max) or up to 7.1.4 on the X5200W (11CH max).

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post #380 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Roger Dressler pretty much booted FM out of the park on that one. FM knows a lot about the commercial side of Atmos but that isn't the same thing as the domestic side.
No he did not.... Rogers examples were for purely object based systems and not Atmos.

"I said it was theoretically possible for object-based systems, including Atmos, to provide these advantages. Until we see the hardware embodiment, we will not know if those possibilities have been fulfilled or not. If you are stating unequivocally that Atmos can never provide these benefits, we will move forward agreeing to disagree on this point."

And I was careful to always stipulate that at this point in time.

Channel based systems limit the ability to do what he described and the work flow as it exists now doesn't support object types, etc.

You have no idea what I may or may not know about how Atmos for the home will work Keith...


You might be surprised.

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post #381 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
On the D&M models, the Atmos marketing will be focusing on the additional "ceiling" mounted speakers added to either a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configuration, so on the X4100W, either 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (9CH max) or up to 7.1.4 on the X5200W (11CH max).
Awesome. I wired two ceiling speakers and have my Front Height running to height and ceiling speakers (with separate gain for each one that I manually balanced) so this will provide some better localization of some objects for me.

The naming convention is interesting. I think I'd have a 11.2.2 system, although I have Surround A and Surround B pairs for a total of 13 speakers and 2 subs so maybe it's still 9.2.2 with the convention you just described.
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post #382 of 1079 Old 06-20-2014, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
On the D&M models, the Atmos marketing will be focusing on the additional "ceiling" mounted speakers added to either a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configuration, so on the X4100W, either 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (9CH max) or up to 7.1.4 on the X5200W (11CH max).
Cool. I'm planning on adding a pair of bookshelves to my standard 7.2 configuration very soon in the "traditional" front height location (as defined by DTS Neo:X and DSX) and will add two overhead in-ceiling speakers once I have the Atmos equipment to support them.
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post #383 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bodean View Post
I am wondering how much of a "step up" these new models are compared to my 2113ci model I own. I don't have a 4K tv, nor HDMI 2. Maybe in a few years, but I like the built in wifi and bluetooth. I wonder if performance for a 5.1 system would be identical with these new models over my older model.... Anyone upgrade from a 2113ci or equivalent model and care to comment?
Other than feature differences, audio quality is still likely to be very similar if going to the X2100W or X3100W.

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post #384 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
On the D&M models, the Atmos marketing will be focusing on the additional "ceiling" mounted speakers added to either a standard 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configuration, so on the X4100W, either 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (9CH max) or up to 7.1.4 on the X5200W (11CH max).
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. In a 7.1.4 configuration, under ideal circumstances, where would we put the additional 4 in ceiling speakers?
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post #385 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Do we know the US MSRPs on the full line-up yet?
S500BT - $299
S700W - $499
S900W - $649
X1100W - $549
X2100W - $749
X3100W - $999
X4100W - $1399
X5200W - $1999
X7200W - $2799 (not posted yet, but EU websites have it as $2800 lbs so at least $2799)

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post #386 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. In a 7.1.4 configuration, under ideal circumstances, where would we put the additional 4 in ceiling speakers?
If you look at a Dolby Atmos theater configuration, the ceiling speakers start forward of the screen, so the FCL/FCR speakers would likely be about 2' forward of the FL/FR speakers. Although the Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers run down the middle of the auditorium actual alignment in the home will likely vary but possibly closer to the line of the FL/FR speakers. The RCL/RCR would go directly above or maybe slightly forward of the SBL/SBR speakers.

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post #387 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
No he did not.... Rogers examples were for purely object based systems and not Atmos.

"I said it was theoretically possible for object-based systems, including Atmos, to provide these advantages. Until we see the hardware embodiment, we will not know if those possibilities have been fulfilled or not. If you are stating unequivocally that Atmos can never provide these benefits, we will move forward agreeing to disagree on this point."

And I was careful to always stipulate that at this point in time.

Channel based systems limit the ability to do what he described and the work flow as it exists now doesn't support object types, etc.

You have no idea what I may or may not know about how Atmos for the home will work Keith...

You might be surprised.
I can only go on your posts so far Marc. You and I have a very different way of interpreting what Roger said. One needs to read between the lines in the pre-embargo-lifting phase we are currently in. As Roger said, he disagreed with you.

All will soon be revealed anyway - not too long to wait now.
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post #388 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:47 AM
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Ok, now we're getting somewhere. In a 7.1.4 configuration, under ideal circumstances, where would we put the additional 4 in ceiling speakers?
Two in the front, two in the back. And WAF is high on in-ceiling speakers
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post #389 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 04:50 AM
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Keith, along these lines, as I await the introduction of the X5200 and X7200, I've been wondering whether I will want to expand my 11.1 set-up to 13.1 to accommodate the second set of height speakers for Atmos given that my R/L surrounds are in-ceiling speakers. Do you know whether Atmos would recognize their vertical location and therefore utilize these speakers as a second set of heights? And would adding rear heights therefore be redundant or at best unnecessary?
If I am understanding you correctly, the best configuration would be with rear surrounds in back at or just above ear level, conventionally, and a pair of Heights at the front and at the back, at ceiling height.

Or you could repurpose your current rear surrounds as rear heights and lose surround backs altogether. (That is what I will be doing - 5.2+4 - as I have no room behind me for rear surrounds in my current HT.
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post #390 of 1079 Old 06-21-2014, 05:00 AM
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dang I can see it now, 24.5...RoFL...
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