The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by provenflipper View Post
I thought I saw mention of a good, moderately priced two channel amp earlier in this thread, but now I can't find the info.

What are most of you guys using as a two channel amp to power additional speakers?
For powering a set of surrounds, the following is what is often suggested ...

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AM.../dp/B00026BQJ6

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post #482 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Blaine Doss View Post
Are you tell me they didn't give me accurate information.. 😀
Well that's a deal breaker maybe next year's x3??? Model will have it and maybe by then atmos also..

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
That is correct ... incorrect information.

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post #483 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The angle information was for the floor speakers, not the heights. Speaking of heights, I'm hoping there will be a little more flexibility (hopefully a couple more locations) than the three you mentioned.
Sorry, but that is not the case.

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post #484 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
I thought this was half the point with Atmos...to give more precision to the locations of audio objects while simultaneously allowing for more speaker placement flexibility. In other words, if the processor isn't correcting for varied speaker locations (and those speaker locations are just assumed), then I see no benefit to Atmos (other than the ceiling speakers) when the same results could be obtained by down-mixing the object mix to a standard channel-based mix. So what am I missing?
It remains to be "heard" just how much of a difference it will indeed make. My own experience listening to Brave in an Atmos theater was not that impressive, certainly not worth the extra $5 just to hear rain coming from the ceiling.

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post #485 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
It remains to be "heard" just how much of a difference it will indeed make. My own experience listening to Brave in an Atmos theater was not that impressive, certainly not worth the extra $5 just to hear rain coming from the ceiling.
Well, as long as I can still use my two speaker configurations (front heights with DSX/Neo:X, in-ceilings with Atmos) and it's easy to switch between them, I'm still in. I guess I'll need to wait to see the X5200W's manual...
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post #486 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Sorry, but that is not the case.
What's not the case? No speaker angle info for floor speakers or no more than 3 choices for height placement? Or both?

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post #487 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The point of Atmos is to conform the sound to your speaker layout, not force you to place speakers where Dolby wants them. They're catering to you, not the other way 'round.
Frankly, it doesn't seem that way to me.

For example, the Pioneer rep seems to say you must have on-/in-ceiling speakers or add-on modules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi Steve,

Unfortunately wall mounted speaker will not work for Atmos content. The content must come from above you in order to work, however once the ceiling speakers are installed our new AVR's will have an Atmos upmixer to utilize the ceiling speakers/Dolby enabled speakers with non atmos content.

I know alot people want to keep their existing front speakers. Ceiling speakers or add-on modules are the way to go.. Of course I think our new Elite speakers will offer sound quality far exceeding their price...



Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Moreover, it doesn't seem that any special measurements (other than distance, I guess) will be made for these speakers. Better hope your in-ceiling speakers are placed right the first time!

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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As the Atmos focus will be on the "ceiling speakers", there will be no additional angle information at all ... rather simply that the speakers will be identified as either "top front", "top middle", or "top rear" (based on the previously posted 4 configurations) and then Audyssey will do its thing just as it does with the traditional 5.1/7.1 setup.
Finally, it doesn't seem that anything special is done for legacy placements to implement any of the benefits that some had claimed would be provided by Atmos for older 5.1/7.1 layouts.

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
If you look at the new Onkyo Atmos Ready AVRs you only find 1 mic bundled which is to be used for AccuEQ only. It suggests to me that Atmos is just another (newer) codec like Dolby Digital or DTS (any flavor), while the mic is not used for any kinda 3D rendering setup calibration at all.
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Bingo. Place the speakers and Audyssey will just do its thing as usual.
This is all rather disappointing to me. "Buy our new speakers, stick them where we tell you to, and hope that DTS/AURO/... don't have different requirements." At least DSX/NEO X worked with the same basic layout.

Last edited by simon_templar_32; 06-23-2014 at 05:27 PM.
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post #488 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What's not the case? No speaker angle info for floor speakers or no more than 3 choices for height placement? Or both?
Both.

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post #489 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
Moreover, it doesn't seem that any special measurements (other than distance, I guess) will be made for these speakers. Better hope your in-ceiling speakers are placed right the first time!
True. If you look at the new Onkyo Atmos Ready AVRs you only find 1 mic bundled which is to be used for AccuEQ only. It suggests to me that Atmos is just another (newer) codec like Dolby Digital or DTS (any flavor), while the mic is not used for any kinda 3D rendering setup calibration at all.
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post #490 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:18 PM
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^^
Bingo. Place the speakers and Audyssey will just do its thing as usual.

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post #491 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Bingo. Place the speakers and Audyssey will just do its thing as usual.
Regardless of what codec is in the AVR, eh?
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post #492 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
For example, the Pioneer rep seems to say you must have on-/in-ceiling speakers or add-on modules.
He's saying the height speakers have to be above you. They'll still sound like they're above you if they're high up on the side walls.
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Moreover, it doesn't seem that any special measurements (other than distance, I guess) will be made for these speakers. Better hope your in-ceiling speakers are placed right the first time!
As I mentioned before, I doubt they take elevation into account, just assume the speakers are above you. However, in order for Atmos to work as a rendering engine, it has to know where your ear level speakers are (fronts and surrounds).

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post #493 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
As I mentioned before, I doubt they take elevation into account, just assume the speakers are above you. However, in order for Atmos to work as a rendering engine, it has to know where your ear level speakers are (fronts and surrounds).
I've already changed my way of thinking about Atmos. There is nothing in the code that would work for knowing where speakers are. Me thinks Atmos is just another codec and as the like there is practically no way to configure a HT system speaker setup for any given (new-er) codec. We don't setup our systems differently for DD or for DTS (any flavor) coz that's not the point. Especially not the point when it comes to room EQ with a bundled test mic (Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, any) that knows nothing about codecs or listening modes (like Dolby PL II for 2CH stereo martixed to 5.1 or more).
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post #494 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
He's saying the height speakers have to be above you. They'll still sound like they're above you if they're high up on the side walls. As I mentioned before, I doubt they take elevation into account, just assume the speakers are above you. However, in order for Atmos to work as a rendering engine, it has to know where your ear level speakers are (fronts and surrounds).
I'm not sure you're right about that. Here's what Steve said

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
^^
I'm one of those where I'd probably need a CI to do the mounting & fishing wires for ceiling speakers in my room.

That means I'll be very interested in reading/seeing/hearing the reflected approach. I'm hoping Pioneer also brings out Atmos speaker modules for those who'd like to go Atmos with non-traditional designs (e-stats, planars).

I also wonder if wall mounted front & rear height speakers can be a suitable alternative to ceiling mounted overheads. People already with 9.1 height systems would only have to add 2 more in the rear or sides IF this will work decently.
Then we have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi Steve,

Unfortunately wall mounted speaker will not work for Atmos content. The content must come from above you in order to work, however once the ceiling speakers are installed our new AVR's will have an Atmos upmixer to utilize the ceiling speakers/Dolby enabled speakers with non atmos content.

I know alot people want to keep their existing front speakers. Ceiling speakers or add-on modules are the way to go.. Of course I think our new Elite speakers will offer sound quality far exceeding their price...



Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
If you are right, then I'm a happy camper.
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post #495 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
For powering a set of surrounds, the following is what is often suggested ...

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AM.../dp/B00026BQJ6
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikclown View Post
I think this is the one you are referring to

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00026BQJ6/...A9ZL7WKW&psc=1

I opted for the Emotiva UPA-200 due to it having more power.

http://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-UPA-20.../dp/B008O3AJLU
That's it! Thanks. Now for a follow up question...

When calibrating everything, how high should I set the gain on the external amp?
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post #496 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:45 PM
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A good place to start is 50%.

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post #497 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
I'm not sure you're right about that. Here's what Steve said



Then we have



If you are right, then I'm a happy camper.
Good question. So JD, can high-mounted bookshelves be used as Atmos height speakers?

I sure hope so because at this point I'm tempted to simply install a pair of bookshelves in the traditional front height location (per PLIIz/Neo:X/DSX) and also use those in a 7.2.2 Atmos "top front" configuration that JD implies will work (if bookshelves are sufficient for Atmos) here. Otherwise I'm back to a dual configuration (one for Atmos, one for traditional front-height 9.2) that I suspect won't be as seamless to implement as I'm hoping.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-23-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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post #498 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
I sure hope so because at this point I'm tempted to simply install a pair of bookshelves in the traditional front height location (per PLIIz/Neo:X/DSX) and also use those in a 7.2.2 Atmos "front ceiling" configuration that JD implies will work (if bookshelves are sufficient for Atmos) here.
Why wouldn't bookshelves be sufficient for Atmos? I fear a kinda over thinking of Atmos here. It's just another, yet newer codec in the history of HT. If bookshelves are good for DD or DTS (any flavor) or 2ch stereo they should also be good for Atmos.
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post #499 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Good question. So JD, can high-mounted bookshelves be used as Atmos height speakers?

I sure hope so because at this point I'm tempted to simply install a pair of bookshelves in the traditional front height location (per PLIIz/Neo:X/DSX) and also use those in a 7.2.2 Atmos "top front" configuration that JD implies will work (if bookshelves are sufficient for Atmos) here. Otherwise I'm back to a dual configuration (one for Atmos, one for traditional front-height 9.2) that I suspect won't be as seamless to implement as I'm hoping.
I am pretty sure you cannot use wall mounted speakers even if they are mounted higher on the wall... I will check and let you know...

Thanks
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post #500 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
If you are right, then I'm a happy camper.
The idea is to have the impression of sound coming from above you. I can understand it being problematic if you spread the height speakers so far apart those sounds now appear to be coming from your sides rather than above. But your room would have to be awfully wide for that to occur.

If the Pioneer rep says the height speakers can't be more than a couple feet apart, then don't put them on the side walls. But if he says it's OK to spread them apart, then high up on the side walls (ceiling height) will still give the effect of sounds above you.

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post #501 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
I am pretty sure you cannot use wall mounted speakers even if they are mounted higher on the wall... I will check and let you know...
Chris, do you know what is the max spread (degrees) allowed for height speakers?

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post #502 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, we've gotten some updated info on how Atmos will be implemented at home in these Denons:

1. Atmos will provide ZERO benefit for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 setups. All of the fancy object based audio rendering will not be translated to these AVRs. Atmos processing will ONLY be available when using at least two height speakers.

2. There will be no additional info about angles, elevation, etc. Just standard calibration (distance and level) for each speaker and otherwise it's effectively still "channel" based. So the other benefit -- that it would "know" if your surrounds were at 110 degrees instead of 90 and thus render the positional object properly in the horizontal plane -- will not be realized in the home version at this point.
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post #503 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:14 PM
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Too bad, missed opportunity. Wonder if other manufacturers are doing the same.
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post #504 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:24 PM
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Yeah, we've gotten some updated info on how Atmos will be implemented at home in these Denons:

1. Atmos will provide ZERO benefit for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 setups. All of the fancy object based audio rendering will not be translated to these AVRs. Atmos processing will ONLY be available when using at least two height speakers.

2. There will be no additional info about angles, elevation, etc. Just standard calibration (distance and level) for each speaker and otherwise it's effectively still "channel" based. So the other benefit -- that it would "know" if your surrounds were at 110 degrees instead of 90 and thus render the positional object properly in the horizontal plane -- will not be realized in the home version at this point.
That's interesting so Atmos rendering will vary by manufacturer? Not sure I really like that. Was hoping to get an Atmos enabled AVR and be done with it. I was kind of giddy, but now a little bummed. I'll probably still go the Denon route anyway this year for full HDMI 2. Hopefully HDCP is included as well.
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post #505 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:38 PM
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Might it make sense to have an Atmos thread for what is certain to be a lot of discussion on the topic that is relevant across multiple brands?.................
No, I am not interested in Onkyo or Pioneer because of room correction via Audyssey XT32 & Sub EQ HT on the Denons coupled with Dolby Atmos. If you are interested in those or other AVRs, see their threads.
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post #506 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
...and otherwise it's effectively still "channel" based. So the other benefit -- that it would "know" if your surrounds were at 110 degrees instead of 90 and thus render the positional object properly in the horizontal plane -- will not be realized in the home version at this point.
I was starting to get that impression. Now it's just a matter of how much trouble and expense I want to go to to essentially get two/four height channels. Hopefully my soon-to-be-installed front heights will be sufficient to satisfy the Atmos setup requirements. JD has mentioned that the new Denons will support a 7.2.2 "top front" ceiling speaker configuration, so if bookshelves will work, I can kill the Neo:X/DSX/Atmos birds all with a single additional-pair-of-speakers stone (since I have nowhere to put rear ceiling surrounds anyway).
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post #507 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:56 PM
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That's interesting so Atmos rendering will vary by manufacturer? Not sure I really like that. Was hoping to get an Atmos enabled AVR and be done with it. I was kind of giddy, but now a little bummed. I'll probably still go the Denon route anyway this year for full HDMI 2. Hopefully HDCP is included as well.
I highly doubt it.

I'm pretty disappointed, but without detailed knowledge of individual speaker locations, there's not much that makes Atmos much different than traditional channel-based mixes aside from the additional ceiling speakers (which could've been added to some degree with DSX/DPLIIz/Neo:X anyway). Dolby and their "Atmos partners" are completely hyping the ceiling aspect of Atmos, so maybe in the home that's really all there is to it. I guess they have to save something to up-sell us when 4K BD hits the streets.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-23-2014 at 08:48 PM.
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post #508 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:56 PM
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C'mon Denon and hurry up with the product announcements so we can stop speculating and get the real scoup.
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post #509 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Too bad, missed opportunity. Wonder if other manufacturers are doing the same.
It can work, just consider the existing implementation of Audyssey XT32 with heights that assumes that the heights are mounted up higher than the other speakers. So one could deceive Audyssey and put the heights on the floor, to one's detriment.
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post #510 of 1006 Old 06-23-2014, 07:00 PM
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I dont remember if this has already been covered, but does anyone know if these Denon receivers will keep digital audio signals at 24bit/96khz or better after Audyssey calibration or will it be reduced to 24/48? I don't know much about this and looking for some info. Thanks.

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