The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 1356 Old 06-23-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cischico View Post
That's interesting so Atmos rendering will vary by manufacturer?
If what Batpig is saying is accurate about the Denon implementation, then it is not doing any rendering at all. It is completely channel based, not object based.
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post #512 of 1356 Old 06-23-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If what Batpig is saying is accurate about the Denon implementation, then it is not doing any rendering at all. It is completely channel based, not object based.
That's what I'm thinking. I'm a bit confused still, I'm still doing some reading and trying to grasps the facts, but so far I'm not as impressed as before. 7.1 is the most I will do for the moment. Can't see myself spending the coin for a first gen slightly poopie Atmos system (in regards to what was kind of promised to what it is in reality in addition to the compromises that some manufacturers are making.

I'm more concerned with HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.2 now, but I'll wait for the dust to settle and get all the facts all in one neat thread and have it blessed by trusted agents.
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post #513 of 1356 Old 06-23-2014, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If what Batpig is saying is accurate about the Denon implementation, then it is not doing any rendering at all. It is completely channel based, not object based.
My enthusiasm for Dolby Atmos has come back down to earth.

The hyper change touted by entertainment industry regarding object based sound (aka 3D) is really just marketing to get us all to open our wallets.

Think I'll be sitting on the fence with arms across the chest with the 'show me' look before committing anything to Atmos. This is based on current information.

Maybe things it'll be different next year and Denon will have models that truly implement 3D sound objects, hence will keep things in view.

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post #514 of 1356 Old 06-23-2014, 10:57 PM
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I don't understand why Atmos would require such a jump in processing power if it is merely adding ceiling speakers and staying channel based. Seems like a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

No offense to JD or Batpig but I'm still hoping D&M don't just implement a hobbled "dumb" technology.
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post #515 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post
No, I am not interested in Onkyo or Pioneer because of room correction via Audyssey XT32 & Sub EQ HT on the Denons coupled with Dolby Atmos. If you are interested in those or other AVRs, see their threads.
Perhaps you missed the dedicated Atmos thread which is not mfr specific? Also, in case you missed it, Lady Gaia is currently the only 2014 Denon model owner that has posted in this thread so there is no reason for her to leave and go elsewhere.

The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
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post #516 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I don't understand why Atmos would require such a jump in processing power if it is merely adding ceiling speakers and staying channel based. Seems like a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

No offense to JD or Batpig but I'm still hoping D&M don't just implement a hobbled "dumb" technology.
Although the minimum configuration requires the addition of at least 2 ceiling speakers, the object oriented processing is likely still applied to all 7 - 11 speakers, otherwise as you say, why have all the additional processing power?

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post #517 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
I dont remember if this has already been covered, but does anyone know if these Denon receivers will keep digital audio signals at 24bit/96khz or better after Audyssey calibration or will it be reduced to 24/48? I don't know much about this and looking for some info. Thanks.
Likely no change from previous years .. the latter.

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post #518 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by provenflipper View Post
I thought I saw mention of a good, moderately priced two channel amp earlier in this thread, but now I can't find the info.

What are most of you guys using as a two channel amp to power additional speakers?
I am using an Emotiva UPA-2. That has been replaced now but Emotiva have a couple of useful two channel amp choices.

If you can live with some potential fan noise, pro amps would also be a good, inexpensive choice. Crown XLS for example.
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post #519 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 03:41 AM
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I second the crown XLS amps. I would get the XLS1500 as the minimum though it has a lower noise floor and other improvements over the XLS1000.
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post #520 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I've already changed my way of thinking about Atmos. There is nothing in the code that would work for knowing where speakers are. Me thinks Atmos is just another codec and as the like there is practically no way to configure a HT system speaker setup for any given (new-er) codec. We don't setup our systems differently for DD or for DTS (any flavor) coz that's not the point. Especially not the point when it comes to room EQ with a bundled test mic (Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, any) that knows nothing about codecs or listening modes (like Dolby PL II for 2CH stereo martixed to 5.1 or more).
Please don't bring your disinformation to this thread as well. You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no way of knowing at this stage how the AVR will determine the distance and angle of the speakers and you certainly do not have any knowledge of what is in "the code".

It is likely, but as yet not known, that AVR manufacturers will use different means of determining positional location of the various speakers. There are at least three ways which this could be done, all of which are currently in use in one form or another.

  • The 'Trinnov' mic method
  • The 'Yamaha' mic method
  • Manually entering the data (the commercial theater method)

Also, you cannot sensibly compare Atmos with DD or DTS codecs. Your comment wrt to mics that know nothing about codecs is nonsensical. Please at least read the information which is now becoming available before starting to spead alarming disinformation such as in your post above.
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post #521 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yeah, we've gotten some updated info on how Atmos will be implemented at home in these Denons:

1. Atmos will provide ZERO benefit for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 setups. All of the fancy object based audio rendering will not be translated to these AVRs. Atmos processing will ONLY be available when using at least two height speakers.

2. There will be no additional info about angles, elevation, etc. Just standard calibration (distance and level) for each speaker and otherwise it's effectively still "channel" based. So the other benefit -- that it would "know" if your surrounds were at 110 degrees instead of 90 and thus render the positional object properly in the horizontal plane -- will not be realized in the home version at this point.
If that is the case, bp, then my enthusiasm for the Denon x5200 has just evaporated. Pioneer seem, so far, to be taking the most favourable (from my POV) approach. I wonder if their new version of MCACC will suit me? Pioneer have also already stated that they will have an upmixing algorithm to bring Atmos-like benefits to non-Atmos content - ie legacy material.

I wonder how Pioneer are handling the positional information? (I have asked @Walkamo ).

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post #522 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
True. If you look at the new Onkyo Atmos Ready AVRs you only find 1 mic bundled which is to be used for AccuEQ only. It suggests to me that Atmos is just another (newer) codec like Dolby Digital or DTS (any flavor), while the mic is not used for any kinda 3D rendering setup calibration at all.
Yamaha units come with one mic too but the higher end Yamahas compute speaker angles for their YPAO REQ. You can't arrive at the conclusion you did by looking at the mic. The positional data can also be entered manually for example (as they do in commercial cinemas). Onkyo need to provide more information before it is possible to know if their units cater for positional information wrt to the speakers.
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post #523 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
I dont remember if this has already been covered, but does anyone know if these Denon receivers will keep digital audio signals at 24bit/96khz or better after Audyssey calibration or will it be reduced to 24/48? I don't know much about this and looking for some info. Thanks.
Audyssey has always been 24/48 once Audyssey is engaged. Onkyo's AccuEQ is 24/96, but may have other disadvantages.

Audyssey have always said that the 24/48 limitation is an AVR limitation not an Audyssey one, so if the manufacturers bump up their processing horsepower, it could change the status quo. Only way to now for sure will be once detailed specs are published.
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post #524 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If what Batpig is saying is accurate about the Denon implementation, then it is not doing any rendering at all. It is completely channel based, not object based.
Which kinda makes it a bit pointless.... let's hope that the usually impeccable and ineffable batpig and JD are, on this occasion, misinformed...
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post #525 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:10 AM
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General information provided in posts #1-7

Please review these posts (work in progress) for general information on the new 2014 models.
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post #526 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:16 AM
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Atmos is really intriguing me, I like what I'm reading about it and now I have a clearer picture of why you been Atmos' champion (kbarnes ;-) ). The only thing putting me off and seems like you as well is that manufacturers seem to all be doing something different in respects to it's implementation. IMO this is not what I was expecting at all and based on the posts here it doesn't seem anyone was expecting this too. I was looking primarily at Denon x5200 or x7200 and was flirting with Pioneer, but if Pioneer has the best implementation of Atmos in respects to the way it was supposed to be implemented then I can live without Audyssey XT32 from Denon.

This better not be the standard practice from here on out. I feel like there are more compromises I got to make.
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post #527 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cischico View Post
Atmos is really intriguing me, I like what I'm reading about it and now I have a clearer picture of why you been Atmos' champion (kbarnes ;-) ). The only thing putting me off and seems like you as well is that manufacturers seem to all be doing something different in respects to it's implementation. IMO this is not what I was expecting at all and based on the posts here it doesn't seem anyone was expecting this too. I was looking primarily at Denon x5200 or x7200 and was flirting with Pioneer, but if Pioneer has the best implementation of Atmos in respects to the way it was supposed to be implemented then I can live without Audyssey XT32 from Denon.

This better not be the standard practice from here on out. I feel like there are more compromises I got to make.
Exactly my own position right now, pending further news being released. I just posted this in the Pioneer thread:

"We may be left with the awful situation that each manufacturer has some of what we want but no manufacturer has all of what we want.

"I have always been an Onkyo guy and currently have their flagship processor. But they have dropped Audyssey for their own AccuEQ which has not had good press to date (in its original Cirrus guise, although the latest Onkyo units with AccuEQ are, of course, unreviewed at this stage). Denon still has XT32/Pro but they apparently don't have rendering (this needs further confirmation IMO). And I am not yet sure what Pioneer are doing - hopefully Chris will answer my question here, or their white paper will reveal more. If Pioneer do rendering, then I’d have to make the jump from Audyssey to MCACC, which isn't something I especially wanted to do, having spent years trying to develop some sort of level of experience and expertise with Audyssey. Exciting times, as the Chinese say )
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post #528 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 04:48 AM
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^^
And the plot thickens ... Pioneer A/V division has just been sold to Onkyo and an investment firm.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Deal...nvestment-fund
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post #529 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
And the plot thickens ... Pioneer A/V division has just been sold to Onkyo and an investment firm.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Deal...nvestment-fund
Wow! Onkyo dropping Audyssey seems like a longer term play to implement Pioneer's MCACC or some form of it. I expect that AccuEQ would get firmware updates over the life of the receiver. Not sure if this was always the strategy for this years receivers and could just possibly be pure luck, but if I am Onkyo I see no point in re-inventing the wheel with their AccuEQ. I bet that team is like THANK GOD! What is there to do in EQ that hasn't been done before in the price target that Onkyo is aiming for. They were too cheap to add the extra horsepower for Audyssey even in their top line up.
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post #530 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 06:55 AM
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Having owned both, I can personally attest to the fact that MCACC has a long way to go before it catches up to Audyssey. The home theater AVR market it really getting narrow now, not a lot of companies out there anymore.

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post #531 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 07:03 AM
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More clarification ....

1) Audyssey can tell the distance and level of any speaker in the system from the main listening position.

2) Ceiling speakers point straight down and Dolby as a spec/recommendation on the angle these speakers need to be placed relative to the main listening position (see diagram on the right below).

3) D&M will use the same object method as any other brand - Dolby has a specification - they would not allow any manufacturer to have a different method of decoding/playback.

In both diagrams below, only the "top" speakers are used with Atmos in addition to the standard 5.1. or 7.1 (rear surround) setup. The Height speakers are only shown to reference their position in relation to the "top" speakers.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Atmos.JPG (58.4 KB, 970 views)
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post #532 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 07:13 AM
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Are the Front Heights and Rear Heights part of the Atmos layout or only the Top speakers?

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post #533 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 07:16 AM
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post #534 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 07:21 AM
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Currently Im using yamaha RX-V465 with a simple 5.1 8ohms speakers
I've been listening quite a numder of demos from x2k recently.
Surround sound can be easily heard and center gives out clearly bright conversation.
I thought of buying yamaha RX-V675 but after listening to x2k, Im thorn between these two.
Has anyone having these problem? Thought of getting RX-V675 but end up with x2k ... WHY?

thanks ... :-)
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post #535 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Are the Front Heights and Rear Heights part of the Atmos layout or only the Top speakers?
Only the top speakers as previously mentioned in addition to standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup.

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post #536 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If what Batpig is saying is accurate about the Denon implementation, then it is not doing any rendering at all. It is completely channel based, not object based.
No, it's definitely rendered object based processing, not just extra "height channels". But the distinction is that:

(1) the object audio processing will ONLY be available with at least two of the Atmos ceiling speakers in place (i.e. consumers don't get the theoretical object audio benefits for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 setups)

(2) there will be no actual positional measurement beyond the standard distance and level, i.e. no data about angle or elevation besides the "baked in" assumptions about each respective channel

BTW - from what we understand, as JD note above this is not some decision by Denon to cripple Atmos for home, it's to Dolby spec
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post #537 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
More clarification ....

1) Audyssey can tell the distance and level of any speaker in the system from the main listening position.

2) Ceiling speakers point straight down and Dolby as a spec/recommendation on the angle these speakers need to be placed relative to the main listening position (see diagram on the right below).

3) D&M will use the same object method as any other brand - Dolby has a specification - they would not allow any manufacturer to have a different method of decoding/playback.

In both diagrams below, only the "top" speakers are used with Atmos in addition to the standard 5.1. or 7.1 (rear surround) setup. The Height speakers are only shown to reference their position in relation to the "top" speakers.

By looking at the 'top view' picture, it looks like the front speakers and the ceiling speakers form a straight line. Interesting. I see the side surrounds off to the side but I dont see SBL and SBR. I wonder if those are meant to be part of the line array also. If memory serves, the 'recommended' angles for surround back speakers definitely support this.

Finally getting some more info to keep the fire raging

I am still interested in Atmos. I'm just glad my HT is still a work in progress and I can reconfigure really easy. I know some of you are not so lucky. Keep it coming.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
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post #538 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 09:01 AM
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Pre Order

The X3100 is on preorder status on the Denon site.
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post #539 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Audyssey has always been 24/48 once Audyssey is engaged. Onkyo's AccuEQ is 24/96, but may have other disadvantages.

Audyssey have always said that the 24/48 limitation is an AVR limitation not an Audyssey one, so if the manufacturers bump up their processing horsepower, it could change the status quo. Only way to now for sure will be once detailed specs are published.
Well maybe now that the upper end models are supposed to have 4 processors as JD says, maybe they can fix that.

Ultimately not a deal breaker for me as that is what I apparently have lived with all these years with my 3808ci. I still thoroughly enjoy the sound so I probably don't know any better. But I sure would be nice to have my cake and eat it too!

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
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post #540 of 1356 Old 06-24-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
No, it's definitely rendered object based processing, not just extra "height channels".
Rendering without knowing speaker locations isn't really rendering. Rather than mapping objects based on where the speakers are, it will simply be sending sound to speaker outputs, like our current channel-based system does.
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