The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2090 Old 06-26-2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laggerific View Post
Ah, great info. I'm curious, though, is there is an advantage of upscaling on the AVR side vs. letting the TV handle it?
It depends on the relative quality of their scalers. My understanding is that some of the inexpensive 4K TVs have very rudimentary scalers which just double the pixels instead of interpolating.

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post #632 of 2090 Old 06-26-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by laggerific View Post
Ah, great info. I'm curious, though, is there is an advantage of upscaling on the AVR side vs. letting the TV handle it?
Depends on which can do it better or if no difference, just turn it off in the AVR to reduce any video lag.

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post #633 of 2090 Old 06-26-2014, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Depends on which can do it better or if no difference, just turn it off in the AVR to reduce any video lag.
Also depends on how the "enduser" can detect which is better. Any tips for the "enduser" on what to look for? That would be great help, indeed.
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post #634 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 02:03 AM
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The 4-ohm thing is a tack on, but done poorly?
Quote:
Protection Mode: If the AVR shuts off in protection mode and the power indicator light flashes red, it generally means the following based on the frequency of flashes:
  • Every 1/2 sec = speaker wire from one post touching another post (most common); driving 4Ω speakers too loud (ie. >-10db); or amp failure
Audioholics.com (http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...ries-receivers)
Quote:
And remember that Eco mode we mentioned? The folks at Denon smartly tied that in with 4 ohm certification. No, the S700W won’t deliver huge output into low impedance loads. However, the current limiting aspect of the Eco mode (a requirement for the European market) was something that engineers found they could retool slightly to allow folks to safely drive a 4 ohm load without excessive heat buildup. Just realize that once you flip the switch to low impedance mode, you also significantly reduce available output power to your speaker system.
Honestly, most AVR are considered to be able to handle 4 ohm if you don't turn the volume up too loud even if the manufacturer doesn't support it. This sounds like the same thing or worse. Anyone have a chance to test drive this with 4-ohm speakers yet?

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post #635 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
The 4-ohm thing is a tack on, but done poorly?[/LIST]Audioholics.com (http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...ries-receivers)


Honestly, most AVR are considered to be able to handle 4 ohm if you don't turn the volume up too loud even if the manufacturer doesn't support it. This sounds like the same thing or worse. Anyone have a chance to test drive this with 4-ohm speakers yet?
ECO mode is required?
Is that a current limiter, low power idle (low bias), a nanny to tell you it is too loud?

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post #636 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 06:25 PM
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Nvidia says useful for movies only not gaming. It drops the color down from 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 (same as bluray)

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Originally Posted by laggerific View Post
Hmm...does that mean I can also get 1080p 3D @ 60Hz over HDMI? That would be excellent...

Still, great news...now I need to figure out how to get it to detect the 4k abilities of the AVR/UHD on the backend. Does the Denon pass through the capabilities of the display to the source input? So, is it a Denon issue at this point?
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post #637 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Speaking of heights, I'm hoping there will be a little more flexibility (hopefully a couple more locations) than the three you mentioned.
Guess it was worth hoping, since it looks like those couple more overhead locations will be a reality eventually.

From the Atmos FAQ:

"If you have the space and budget, you can build a Dolby Atmos system with as many as 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers."

http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

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post #638 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 07:51 PM
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Do you know if Top Front and Top Middle can be used for 7.1.4 or does it have to be Top Front and Top Rear? It seems to me the Top Middle might be a better choice since the back is covered by the surrounds.
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
More clarification ....

1) Audyssey can tell the distance and level of any speaker in the system from the main listening position.

2) Ceiling speakers point straight down and Dolby as a spec/recommendation on the angle these speakers need to be placed relative to the main listening position (see diagram on the right below).

3) D&M will use the same object method as any other brand - Dolby has a specification - they would not allow any manufacturer to have a different method of decoding/playback.

In both diagrams below, only the "top" speakers are used with Atmos in addition to the standard 5.1. or 7.1 (rear surround) setup. The Height speakers are only shown to reference their position in relation to the "top" speakers.

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post #639 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 08:07 PM
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The pioneer rep claims no 2014 denon, pioneer or yamaha receivers have hdcp 2.2.
Pioneer SC LX88 - 9.2 ch, Dolby Amos, HDMI 2.0

"Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4)."
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post #640 of 2090 Old 06-27-2014, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post
Do you know if Top Front and Top Middle can be used for 7.1.4 or does it have to be Top Front and Top Rear? It seems to me the Top Middle might be a better choice since the back is covered by the surrounds.
Asked and answered. Plus, it's looking like "top middle" might be the only supported x.x.2 configuration.
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post #641 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 12:49 AM
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Question Question about x5200/7200 multi-zone capabilities

I can't remember if this has already been asked but do we know what the multi-zone capabilities of the two top models coming soon will be. Particularly dealing with zone 3 and possibly being able to get analog output from another HDMI source or will it stay limited to zone 2 like the x4000/4100? I have the potential to use at least 3 separate zones maybe even 4 if the x5200 or x7200 would go that far but I would like to know what limitations there will be and I didn't really see anything in post 3 that covers this (unless I missed it). Thanks.

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post #642 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
The pioneer rep claims no 2014 denon, pioneer or yamaha receivers have hdcp 2.2.
Pioneer SC LX88 - 9.2 ch, Dolby Amos, HDMI 2.0


"Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4)."

So I get the advantage of having hdmi 2.0, but the units can't accept a 4k feed from any future source that will require HDCP 2.2? I get keeping costs down by not having another chip in the unit, but you would think HDCP 2.2 and hdmi 2.0 go hand in hand....
and that's not something you can enable with a firmware update...
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post #643 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Roger Dressler pretty much booted FM out of the park on that one. FM knows a lot about the commercial side of Atmos but that isn't the same thing as the domestic side.
Care to revise that comment on how I was "booted out of the park" by Roger?

Again..... For the cheap seats....

Home Atmos offers no benefit for those with only 5.1, or even 7.1, setups.

At this time, "legacy" systems will get legacy payload playback.

While there are difference in the maximum number of objects and outputs in the consumer versions, the way in which objects will be encoded and rendered should create virtually no audible subjective difference.

Because of the vast size differences between almost any cinema and 99% of home theaters, the scale of the changes won't be detrimental.

Dolby spent plenty of time with the cinema professionals in developing the home iteration. Many of us were invited to see the system as it has been developed and the company was very open to feedback and comment along the way.... Since all of the current content came from the cinema side, I'm not quite sure why you think I wouldn't have any insight into what was coming home.

There are other things yet to be revealed about Home Atmos, and I am ultra excited about it.

They still have some really cool tricks up their sleeves that will be revealed in the coming months.
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post #644 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
I can't remember if this has already been asked but do we know what the multi-zone capabilities of the two top models coming soon will be. Particularly dealing with zone 3 and possibly being able to get analog output from another HDMI source or will it stay limited to zone 2 like the x4000/4100? I have the potential to use at least 3 separate zones maybe even 4 if the x5200 or x7200 would go that far but I would like to know what limitations there will be and I didn't really see anything in post 3 that covers this (unless I missed it). Thanks.
We don't yet have the full details on the 7200, but it looks like it will be losing the Zone 4 capability found on the 4520CI, but both the 5200 and 7200 will gain the same current Zone 2/3 capability as is on the X3000/X4000.

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post #645 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
While there are difference in the maximum number of objects and outputs in the consumer versions, the way in which objects will be encoded and rendered should create virtually no audible subjective difference.

Because of the vast size differences between almost any cinema and 99% of home theaters, the scale of the changes won't be detrimental.

Dolby spent plenty of time with the cinema professionals in developing the home iteration. Many of us were invited to see the system as it has been developed and the company was very open to feedback and comment along the way....

There are other things yet to be revealed about Home Atmos, and I am ultra excited about it.

They still have some really cool tricks up their sleeves that will be revealed in the coming months.
Better hurry FM, Sanjay and Keith already have severe whiplash from whipping the bandwagon around so fast, not sure if their necks can handle another high velocity u-turn

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post #646 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 07:59 AM
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Do these threads normally have 20+ pages before anybody has really heard the new units? I know there is some relevant info in this thread but should it be renamed to the "Denon 2014 speculation and ATMOS arguments" thread? I'm not joking. It is a lot to wade through and most of it is pretty irrelevant. I have enjoyed learning about object based audio though.
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post #647 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
Do these threads normally have 20+ pages before anybody has really heard the new units? I know there is some relevant info in this thread but should it be renamed to the "Denon 2014 speculation and ATMOS arguments" thread? I'm not joking. It is a lot to wade through and most of it is pretty irrelevant. I have enjoyed learning about object based audio though.
I, for one, am enjoying the discussion very much.

Like any published source, you can always skim through the items that hold no interest for you (even if that includes batpig's irreverent humor ).
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post #648 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I, for one, am enjoying the discussion very much.

Like any published source, you can always skim through the items that hold no interest for you (even if that includes batpig's irreverent humor ).

Me too. It has been a hoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yeah, we've gotten some updated info on how Atmos will be implemented at home in these Denons:

1. Atmos will provide ZERO benefit for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 setups. All of the fancy object based audio rendering will not be translated to these AVRs. Atmos processing will ONLY be available when using at least two height speakers.

2. There will be no additional info about angles, elevation, etc. Just standard calibration (distance and level) for each speaker and otherwise it's effectively still "channel" based. So the other benefit -- that it would "know" if your surrounds were at 110 degrees instead of 90 and thus render the positional object properly in the horizontal plane -- will not be realized in the home version at this point.
And the attached Atmos speaker placement diagram.

The HDMI 2.0 limitation might be a concern for those who want to move to 4K, a new AVR may be required if you want it to do the switching.

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post #649 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 08:34 AM
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I played around X-1100 and 2100 they both ran hot and shut down after 1 hour playing a movie they are making these receivers cheaper!!!!!
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post #650 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 09:15 AM
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My thought is that by the time not having HDCP 2.2 becomes a concern, we're going to be a few years into these receivers' lives anyways.
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post #651 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 09:40 AM
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Ok, been going back and forth in my head and need some nudging lol

I am really up in the air over which one to get to replace my AVR-591.

My budget is mainly in the S900 / X1100 range, but if I really can convince myself I may swing the X2100. I won't kid myself to think I can fit the X3100 in my budget lol.

My current set up probably does not warrant anything too fancy:
Samsung F9000 (2014 One Connect)
Polk 5.1 (Monitor II's + PSW505)

The main differences I see are: S900/X2100 vs X1100 - Audessey, HDMI inputs (5 rear vs 7 rear, latter all 2.0), bump in power.

I am leaning a little to the S900, will I really see a benefit in Audessey XT with Monitor II's in a 5.1 set up? Although on the other hand, I don't believe I need any help upscaling my 4K signals, Samsung has a really good upscaler in the F9000 w/ 2014 upgraded One Connect Box. I can probably get by with 2x HDMI 2.0 ports (we don't even have anything to take advantage of this yet lol, I can only see the new BD players requiring this for 4K BD discs? maybe in a yr or two?). All my devices will fit to 5 rear HDMI ports (PS3, PS4, NTV550, Chromecast, BD player, Skype cam - doesn't matter if this is in the AVR or to my TV).

I guess basically, is the Audessey enough to push me to go for the X1100/X2100? I don't care about 4k upscaling, 5 rear HDMI inputs seem sufficient - 2 being 2.0, or am I missing something else to consider? I should probably write the X2100 off, I think my wife may kill me for dropping another $700 (just built a new PC for about $1500, Samsung One Connect Box was another $400... I think she already wants to cause harm lol). Although I can stomach the $100 difference between X1100 / S900 if all things considered, the additional HDMI is worth it.

Bit by the upgrade bug, limited by the WAF
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post #652 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Chise View Post
I played around X-1100 and 2100 they both ran hot and shut down after 1 hour playing a movie they are making these receivers cheaper!!!!!
I hope this isn't true as i will be using my AV receiver for all normal operations.
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post #653 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 10:13 AM
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I hope this isn't true as i will be using my AV receiver for all normal operations.
I was running it 60 and 65 percent volume.
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post #654 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upstate-avfan-da View Post
Ok, been going back and forth in my head and need some nudging lol

I am really up in the air over which one to get to replace my AVR-591.

My budget is mainly in the S900 / X1100 range, but if I really can convince myself I may swing the X2100. I won't kid myself to think I can fit the X3100 in my budget lol.

My current set up probably does not warrant anything too fancy:
Samsung F9000 (2014 One Connect)
Polk 5.1 (Monitor II's + PSW505)

The main differences I see are: S900/X2100 vs X1100 - Audessey, HDMI inputs (5 rear vs 7 rear, latter all 2.0), bump in power.

I am leaning a little to the S900, will I really see a benefit in Audessey XT with Monitor II's in a 5.1 set up? Although on the other hand, I don't believe I need any help upscaling my 4K signals, Samsung has a really good upscaler in the F9000 w/ 2014 upgraded One Connect Box. I can probably get by with 2x HDMI 2.0 ports (we don't even have anything to take advantage of this yet lol, I can only see the new BD players requiring this for 4K BD discs? maybe in a yr or two?). All my devices will fit to 5 rear HDMI ports (PS3, PS4, NTV550, Chromecast, BD player, Skype cam - doesn't matter if this is in the AVR or to my TV).

I guess basically, is the Audessey enough to push me to go for the X1100/X2100? I don't care about 4k upscaling, 5 rear HDMI inputs seem sufficient - 2 being 2.0, or am I missing something else to consider? I should probably write the X2100 off, I think my wife may kill me for dropping another $700 (just built a new PC for about $1500, Samsung One Connect Box was another $400... I think she already wants to cause harm lol). Although I can stomach the $100 difference between X1100 / S900 if all things considered, the additional HDMI is worth it.
Depending on who you ask, will get you different answers about Audyssey. Some will tell you that XT is a big step up from the basic MultEq. Some will say you will be hard pressed to hear the difference. And others flat out hate Audyssey and they will tell you to not waste your time. Me personally, I only have experience with the XT version in my older Denon AVR-3808ci, but to me in my space it makes a noticeable difference and for the better. Now I haven't had the time, patience, or money to do proper room treatments yet so that may negate some of the 'benefits' of Audyssey but my theater is still a work in progress.

Another big benefit of going with the X series is that extra year of manufacturers warranty. In this day and age of 'disposable electronics' I take all the warranties I can get.

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post #655 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 10:31 AM
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I was running it 60 and 65 percent volume.
And you're absolutely sure all your speakers connections on the back of the unit were nice and clean with no stray strands? There's been many posts where the poster swears they are good but then goes back and double-checks very carefully and it turns out there were some problems with the connections. If those models take banana plugs I highly recommend using them. Be sure to check connections at the speaker end as well.

And the unit has adequate ventilation?
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post #656 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
We don't yet have the full details on the 7200, but it looks like it will be losing the Zone 4 capability found on the 4520CI, but both the 5200 and 7200 will gain the same current Zone 2/3 capability as is on the X3000/X4000.
Forgive me as I am mostly clueless with these capabilities, but does this mean that zones 2 & 3 will be able to use an HDMI source independently, or will zone 3 be limited to something 'less'. I understand the all zone stereo or whatever it's called will play the same HDMI source simultaneously to all 3 zones but I want to be able to playback audio from 3 separate HDMI sources to each of the 3 zones independently if I want to. Does that make sense? It's not a deal breaker, but something that would be nice (and beneficial) to me.

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post #657 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 10:38 AM
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I played around X-1100 and 2100 they both ran hot and shut down after 1 hour playing a movie they are making these receivers cheaper!!!!!
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I was running it 60 and 65 percent volume.
What make/model speakers were they driving?

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post #658 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 11:37 AM
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Forgive me as I am mostly clueless with these capabilities, but does this mean that zones 2 & 3 will be able to use an HDMI source independently, or will zone 3 be limited to something 'less'. I understand the all zone stereo or whatever it's called will play the same HDMI source simultaneously to all 3 zones but I want to be able to playback audio from 3 separate HDMI sources to each of the 3 zones independently if I want to. Does that make sense? It's not a deal breaker, but something that would be nice (and beneficial) to me.
It means independent 2CH HDMI/optical/coax digital stereo to Zone 2 and the same minus the HDMI to Zone 3.

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post #659 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 11:40 AM
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I played around X-1100 and 2100 they both ran hot and shut down after 1 hour playing a movie they are making these receivers cheaper!!!!!
What does this mean? Played around? Did you bring both of them home to test? What ohm speakers and what is their sensitivity/efficiency rating? How much free space is around the AVR? Did they shut down with a slow or fast blinking red light? Without details, this post is incomplete.

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post #660 of 2090 Old 06-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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It means independent 2CH HDMI/optical/coax digital stereo to Zone 2 and the same minus the HDMI to Zone 3.
Ok. Got it now. Thanks JD.

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