The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 1634 Old 07-05-2014, 07:32 PM
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We should be getting the X2100W in this coming week, so should start seeing more reviews shortly.

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post #752 of 1634 Old 07-05-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
What are the differences between the X5200W and Marantz SR7009?
Made in Japan, 140W vs. 125W, HD Radio, DHCT (Denon High Current Transistors), gold plated connectors

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post #753 of 1634 Old 07-05-2014, 08:55 PM
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The X2100w is essentially the same as the x2000 with wifi. I'm more excited with the X1100 having 7 channels and zone 2 support. It makes the entry into multi zone multi source network audio very affordable.

Can't wait to get my hands on the new Denon HEOS amp and preamp. Those could be a game changers.

Anyone know what HEOS stands for? If I had to guess maybe Home Entertainment Operating System?
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post #754 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dandiego View Post
Thanks for confirming. It's odd to see 802.11b/g as the only Wi-Fi option on a 2014 product line.
I use a wireless bridge (802.11n) for streaming to my Logitech Squeezebox Touch, which is set up so that all flac decoding is done on the server. Without N speeds I doubt wireless g could keep up. So I agree it's odd to see just b/g -- obviously Denon is going the low cost route on this part.
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post #755 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Made in Japan, 140W vs. 125W, HD Radio, DHCT (Denon High Current Transistors), gold plated connectors
I wonder which will matter more; Denon High Current Transistors or the Marantz's Toroidal transformer?
Also, doesn't the Marantz have gold plated connectors? Can't wait for these to come out!

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #756 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Made in Japan, 140W vs. 125W, HD Radio, DHCT (Denon High Current Transistors), gold plated connectors
JD, how significant, would you say, is 'made in Japan'? Are there real, objectively discernible differences between units made in Japan and units made in China, or is it more of an emotional choice?
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post #757 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 06:12 AM
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^ I'd call it one more based upon stupidity, ignorance, and plain bigotry from people who cannot comprehend that there's 1 1/2 BILLION people living in China and they produce trillions of products with varying levels of quality: just as any other nation on earth does. Or wait, everything that comes from the USA, Japan, or European nations is amazing, right?

You can bet that the humans and machinery there are just as capable as anywhere else-- it's all about what's being produced, the methodology and operations of its production, and quality control.

Most homes have hundreds of Chinese-born electronics and other consumer products that last as long and are built to the same (if not higher) standards as those emanating from other countries, but you'll be damned if many of those residing in those homes ever process the reality.

Rant over, bring on the 5200!

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post #758 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
^ I'd call it one more based upon stupidity, ignorance, and plain bigotry from people who cannot comprehend that there's 1 1/2 BILLION people living in China and they produce trillions of products with varying levels of quality: just as any other nation on earth does. Or wait, everything that comes from the USA, Japan, or European nations is amazing, right?

You can bet that the humans and machinery there are just as capable as anywhere else-- it's all about what's being produced, the methodology and operations of its production, and quality control.

Most homes have hundreds of Chinese-born electronics and other consumer products that last as long and are built to the same (if not higher) standards as those emanating from other countries, but you'll be damned if many of those residing in those homes ever process the reality.

Rant over, bring on the 5200!

James
So, would you say that there no objectively discernible differences then? Am I reading you right?

I'm not saying it will influence my choice, but just wondering. TBH I am not even sure where my flagship Onkyo 5509 was made. Never bothered to look.
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post #759 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
JD, how significant, would you say, is 'made in Japan'? Are there real, objectively discernible differences between units made in Japan and units made in China, or is it more of an emotional choice?
Likely yes, otherwise it would be more cost effective for D&M to just produce all models in China.
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post #760 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Likely yes, otherwise it would be more cost effective for D&M to just produce all models in China.
Any idea what the discernible differences in quality would be though? I keep hearing people say they'd rather have a unit made in Japan, but nobody ever seems to give any objective reasons why. It could influence my upcoming Denon purchase if there are actual tangible advantages to a Japan-made unit. If there are no real differences that people can point to, then I won’t really care where the unit is made.
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post #761 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Likely yes, otherwise it would be more cost effective for D&M to just produce all models in China.
Perhaps. On the other hand, it may not make economic sense to spin up production of low volume high-end models in a plant geared for high volume. Making some models close to home can also have benefits when it comes to prototyping future models (which is, in some ways, what the high-end models represent.)

There are more variables than quality in play. Of course there will definitely be a focus on build quality in the more expensive models regardless of where they are built. My X2100 is definitely inferior to my 3808ci in tangible ways ... many of which don't matter since I rarely need to touch the unit.

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post #762 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
JD, how significant, would you say, is 'made in Japan'? Are there real, objectively discernible differences between units made in Japan and units made in China, or is it more of an emotional choice?
Quality Control! The Japanese are fastidious! They can control the manufacturing process better in factories located domestically than abroad.

This is based on living and working in Japan for a number of years.

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post #763 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quality Control! The Japanese are fastidious! They can control the manufacturing process better in factories located domestically than abroad.

This is based on living and working in Japan for a number of years.
This is what people often say - but nobody ever seems to give an objective, discernible, tangible example of how the quality is better.
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post #764 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This is what people often say - but nobody ever seems to give an objective, discernible, tangible example of how the quality is better.
I would guess that both countries are very capable of making the finest quality goods in the world, the advantage China has is in labor costs and a lack of many environmental and business/labor regulations common in many other countries, Japan is definitely at a disadvantage in those areas.
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post #765 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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I would guess that both countries are very capable of making the finest quality goods in the world, the advantage China has is in labor costs and a lack of many environmental and business/labor regulations common in many other countries, Japan is definitely at a disadvantage in those areas.
I agree. But it sure ain't easy to get someone to point out real, genuine, tangible, discernible, quality differences between a Japanese unit and a Chinese unit. Kinda makes me suspect that it's just an emotional reaction.
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post #766 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This is what people often say - but nobody ever seems to give an objective, discernible, tangible example of how the quality is better.
Statistical quality data would only be available under NDA from the companies of interest. Otherwise, you can google "quality statistics of avr made in japan vs china" or whatever search terms you like and you will find plenty of discussions similar to this thread including similar threads on avsforum.com.

Common sense would indicate it's easier to control the manufacturing process and quality when the factory is located near the engineering teams. Even more significant is that the line workers, test engineers, manufacturing engineers, quality engineers, component engineers, and design engineers all speak the same language.

Interesting read:
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...rol-conundrum/
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post #767 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
Statistical quality data would only be available under NDA from the companies of interest. Otherwise, you can google "quality statistics of avr made in japan vs china" or whatever search terms you like and you will find plenty of discussions similar to this thread including similar threads on avsforum.com.

Common sense would indicate it's easier to control the manufacturing process and quality when the factory is located near the engineering teams. Even more significant is that the line workers, test engineers, manufacturing engineers, quality engineers, component engineers, and design engineers all speak the same language.

Interesting read:
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...rol-conundrum/
All good points. But the fact remains that nobody has answered my question. If I buy a Denon made in Japan and a Denon made in China, what will the tangible differences be wrt to quality? The absence of answers tends to make me think "not much".
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post #768 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
All good points. But the fact remains that nobody has answered my question. If I buy a Denon made in Japan and a Denon made in China, what will the tangible differences be wrt to quality? The absence of answers tends to make me think "not much".
Contact the companies you are interested in and request their quality data. Then you should have the answer to your question. God helps those that help themselves. For further info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_hel...elp_themselves

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post #769 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:17 PM
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Contact the companies you are interested in and request their quality data. Then you should have the answer to your question. God helps those that help themselves. For further info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_hel...elp_themselves
I wanted the guys who say that 'made in Japan' is better than made in China to explain why they say that. Seems they can't. The inference I draw from that is that there aren’t any real or significant differences. I didn't expect there would be TBH. I am typing this on an Apple iMac which seems to me to be as well made as it could possibly be, and it was made in China. As are so many of the other things I own.

I don't see what religion has to do with it BTW.
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post #770 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wanted the guys who say that 'made in Japan' is better than made in China to explain why they say that. Seems they can't. The inference I draw from that is that there aren’t any real or significant differences. I didn't expect there would be TBH. I am typing this on an Apple iMac which seems to me to be as well made as it could possibly be, and it was made in China. As are so many of the other things I own.

I don't see what religion has to do with it BTW.
You have drawn your own conclusion based on inference that Chinese quality doesn't differ significantly from Japanese quality, which is probably similar thinking to those that infer Japanese quality is better than Chinese quality. As I said, if you really want the statistics, take the initiative (which was inferred by the quote) and contact the companies you are interested in.
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post #771 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:45 PM
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1. DENON is telling you that their higher end models are better made than their lower end models.
2. The higher end models are made in japan
3. Japan makes better Denon products than China.


I made a modus ponens!




If you guys want an example of Chinese products in high quality AV gear gone wrong, look no further than AV123 and the subwoofers they produced. I think I'm one of the only people left who haven't ditched their Chinese made amps or modified them to make them work better.


There are hundreds of examples I'm sure of bad vs. good Chinese products. The bottom line is that you trust DENON to do proper quality control regardless of where they are made.
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post #772 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
You have drawn your own conclusion based on inference that Chinese quality doesn't differ significantly from Japanese quality, which is probably similar thinking to those that infer Japanese quality is better than Chinese quality. As I said, if you really want the statistics, take the initiative (which was inferred by the quote) and contact the companies you are interested in.
No - I haven't inferred that at all. I have Chinese products here and Japanese products and I can see no discernible quality differences between them. I have no inclination to contact the companies - I am interested in the people making the claims substantiating them with objective proof. If 'made in Japan' is better, then how is it better? Simple question. Burden of proof is on those making the claims, not me.
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post #773 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 12:59 PM
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1. DENON is telling you that their higher end models are better made than their lower end models.
2. The higher end models are made in japan
3. Japan makes better Denon products than China.


I made a modus ponens!




If you guys want an example of Chinese products in high quality AV gear gone wrong, look no further than AV123 and the subwoofers they produced. I think I'm one of the only people left who haven't ditched their Chinese made amps or modified them to make them work better.


There are hundreds of examples I'm sure of bad vs. good Chinese products. The bottom line is that you trust DENON to do proper quality control regardless of where they are made.
Quite so. I would always have thought that to be the case. But people still seem to say that 'made in Japan' is better. I am prepared to believe that, if someone has some sort of objective evidence to support it. In the absence of such, I don't believe it.

If Denon say their Japanese units are better made, do they give examples of what 'better made' means?
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post #774 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 01:17 PM
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1. DENON is telling you that their higher end models are better made than their lower end models.
Nah. Most likely explanation is that they believe -- probably correctly -- that they can charge more for a product that was made in Japan. Regardless of whether it is or is not of higher quality. It's a marketable feature, just like all of the other buzzwords printed on the box.

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Originally Posted by krozman View Post
If you guys want an example of Chinese products in high quality AV gear gone wrong, look no further than AV123 and the subwoofers they produced. I think I'm one of the only people left who haven't ditched their Chinese made amps or modified them to make them work better.
Bad example. Given the other things that happened with AV123, it's likely that they were pressuring the manufacturer to reduce the cost of the amplifiers. Can't blame the contract manufacturer for all of the problems.
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post #775 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wanted the guys who say that 'made in Japan' is better than made in China to explain why they say that. Seems they can't. The inference I draw from that is that there aren’t any real or significant differences. I didn't expect there would be TBH. I am typing this on an Apple iMac which seems to me to be as well made as it could possibly be, and it was made in China. As are so many of the other things I own.

I don't see what religion has to do with it BTW.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No - I haven't inferred that at all. I have Chinese products here and Japanese products and I can see no discernible quality differences between them. I have no inclination to contact the companies - I am interested in the people making the claims substantiating them with objective proof. If 'made in Japan' is better, then how is it better? Simple question. Burden of proof is on those making the claims, not me.
Referring to your quote about inference, what were you inferring then?

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post #776 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 01:18 PM
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They probably cost more to make in Japan don't they?

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post #777 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 01:22 PM
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They probably cost more to make in Japan don't they?
Yes because labor rates (due to cost of living) are higher in Japan. Exchange rates are a factor as well.

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post #778 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 03:15 PM
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Hi,


I currently have a JVC 8040RX-B receiver:
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/prod...L027235&page=2


My speakers:
Infinity Primus P362 (front), P351 (center), P143 (surrounds), Hsu STF-2 sub


I'm looking at new Denon receivers (X-2100W or S-700W). Would there be a noticeable improvement in sound quality upgrading to either of these?


Yes, I understand that these new receivers have 4K, Wifi, Bluetooth, HDMI, internet radio, etc. I can live without those things. I'm strictly talking about sound quality. What do you think? The new receivers have Audessey Multi EQ or Multi EQ XT, while my JVC does not. Are those technologies worth the upgrade?


I mainly watch movies and listen to music at night time, and have to be quiet. The Audessey Dynamic Volume and EQ technologies look interesting in this regard, as I ALWAYS have to have the remote volume control handy because dialogue is too low and action is too loud!


Should I upgrade? Will the sound improvement overall be noticeable? Worth the investment?


Thanks
Bilbo
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post #779 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 03:41 PM
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^^
Yup.

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post #780 of 1634 Old 07-06-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Quite so. I would always have thought that to be the case. But people still seem to say that 'made in Japan' is better. I am prepared to believe that, if someone has some sort of objective evidence to support it. In the absence of such, I don't believe it.

If Denon say their Japanese units are better made, do they give examples of what 'better made' means?
Not really directly applicable, but the Atlantic ran a story about large companies returning manufacturing to domestic plants and experiencing several benefits. The GE Geospring they discuss in the article is a good example. An interesting read if you are interested.

http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-insourcing-boom/309166/
kbarnes701 and steveting99 like this.
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