The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith Lashinski View Post
WHen I unbox, take out and set up will take pictures and post a review.
No pictures required, but thanks. Really more interested in the process of using it.


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post #812 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 04:54 PM
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Lol, I forgot about the rocket ship mic stand. I've setup a couple 2100s and a 1100 and didn't even realize that's what it was. Doing another one tomorrow so I'll pull it out and see how tall it is.

I personally prefer a tripod. They sit real nice at ear level on the back of a couch with out pulling the legs apart. I have a boom stand and attachment but I don't think it works as good as a good old $9 tripod.
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post #813 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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oof -- do you run Audyssey for your customers with the mic that close to the couch cushion?? and the tripod just resting on the cushion? especially a leather couchback... that's asking for reflections to screw up the calibration.
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post #814 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:39 PM
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post #815 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
oof -- do you run Audyssey for your customers with the mic that close to the couch cushion?? and the tripod just resting on the cushion? especially a leather couchback... that's asking for reflections to screw up the calibration.
Isn't it supposed to be at ear level to calibrate properly?

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post #816 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
oof -- do you run Audyssey for your customers with the mic that close to the couch cushion?? and the tripod just resting on the cushion? especially a leather couchback... that's asking for reflections to screw up the calibration.
When I leave a customers home, we know exactly what Audyssey has done. It's measurable.
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post #817 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Isn't it supposed to be at ear level to calibrate properly?
Yes, of course, but it's also best practice to stay away from reflective surfaces like walls and leather couch cushions.

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post #818 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
When I leave a customers home, we know exactly what Audyssey has done. It's measurable.
Out of curiosity, since you ARE measuring the results, have you done comparisons in situations like this to see the measurable difference between resting the mic directly against the couch cushion vs. having it a 8-12" forward of the couch cushion? If so, what have you found?

Since we're on the topic... What kind of things do you measure? Just freq response or do you also look at reflections, waterfall, etc? And do you just measure at MLP or do you check a few spots?

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post #819 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yes, of course, but it's also best practice to stay away from reflective surfaces like walls and leather couch cushions.
How is it possible to do that and also keep it at ear level? Unless the person that sits there is extremely tall, ear level will normally be near the cushions won't it?

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post #820 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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ear level = height

this is about where it's located in the horizontal plane

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post #821 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
How is it possible to do that and also keep it at ear level? Unless the person that sits there is extremely tall, ear level will normally be near the cushions won't it?
But not on the cushion itself, I position my mic about 6" to 8" off the back of the recliner by positioning the adjustable tripod legs accordingly. I also measure the chair reclined as one of the listening positions.
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post #822 of 2109 Old 07-09-2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Out of curiosity, since you ARE measuring the results, have you done comparisons in situations like this to see the measurable difference between resting the mic directly against the couch cushion vs. having it a 8-12" forward of the couch cushion? If so, what have you found?

Since we're on the topic... What kind of things do you measure? Just freq response or do you also look at reflections, waterfall, etc? And do you just measure at MLP or do you check a few spots?
Let's get this out of the way 1st. I just snapped that photo to show the tripod. I generally leave the mic a good 6-8 inches off the back of the couch when running Audyssey setup for real. I've never ran Audyssey with the mic that close to the couch so I have no data to compare. I also use a different mic. I find the results are more consistent.

95% of my multi channel installs are in living rooms and 100% of them are a compromise. I haven't got a do your thing blank check customer yet. They are typically under $15,000, 5.1 or 7.1 with a zone or two of audio, lamps, climate, cameras and control.

Measurements in these types of installations are frequency response only. It's just a good way to visualize what we're hearing. I rarely get to make changes to the room or setup that matter. Spouse acceptance factor is high with my clients. I do the best I can with what I have to work with.
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post #823 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response. Out of curiosity how do you use a different mic for Audyssey? Did you create a custom calibration profile based on actual Audyssey mics?
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post #824 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
oof -- do you run Audyssey for your customers with the mic that close to the couch cushion?? and the tripod just resting on the cushion? especially a leather couchback... that's asking for reflections to screw up the calibration.
It is surely just a reference photo for his $9 tripod. Isn’t it?
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post #825 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
When I leave a customers home, we know exactly what Audyssey has done. It's measurable.
Sure - but you don't lean the mic against the back of the sofa like that do you?
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post #826 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
How is it possible to do that and also keep it at ear level? Unless the person that sits there is extremely tall, ear level will normally be near the cushions won't it?
It isn’t a problem:

d)3. Where should I position the mic for best results?
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post #827 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure - but you don't lean the mic against the back of the sofa like that do you?
This is where reading ahead is helpful. In the follow up post he said he doesn't
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post #828 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:12 AM
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I've never ran Audyssey with the mic that close to the couch so I have no data to compare. I also use a different mic. I find the results are more consistent.
That's interesting. Given that the AVR has an internal cal file that has been specced for the Audyssey mic, how do you use a different mic with it? How do you know what compensations to apply for the internal cal file (which can't, of course, be disabled, when running Audyssey?
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post #829 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This is where reading ahead is helpful. In the follow up post he said he doesn't
Readahead seems to have been disabled I have a follow-up to the follow-up anyway. And before you say, I'm asking a different question to your follow-up to the follow-up
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post #830 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
But not on the cushion itself, I position my mic about 6" to 8" off the back of the recliner by positioning the adjustable tripod legs accordingly. I also measure the chair reclined as one of the listening positions.
Found this Youtube clip. This is how i plan to do once i get the new AVR.
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post #831 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 10:17 AM
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Thanks for the response. Out of curiosity how do you use a different mic for Audyssey? Did you create a custom calibration profile based on actual Audyssey mics?
That wouldn’t work would it? He could measure the Audyssey mic but he can't disable the internal cal file. I guess he could measure the Audyssey mic, assume that the cal file will take it to flat, then create a new cal file for his own mic which takes account of the cal file in the AVR and his own new cal file. Seems like a long-winded process - much easier to use the mic designed for the job by Audyssey IMO - and probably no less reliable than a mic with a cal file cretaed against an unknown cal file and measured against a second cal file... just sayin'
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post #832 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Flemming_KJ View Post
Found this Youtube clip. This is how i plan to do once i get the new AVR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyNlhJ3Hvo
Keep the distance between mic positions to only 0.5 meter for better results ... focus on the main listening position. Also put the sides on stands.

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post #833 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Flemming_KJ View Post
Found this Youtube clip. This is how i plan to do once i get the new AVR.
That is the classic way to do it. But many experienced Audyssey users have found that they get the best results when, as JD says above, they focus more on the MLP. Well, they get better results for the person sitting at the MLP anyway For example, I use most of my mic positions around my own seat, spaced about 18 inches apart or less, with a couple in my only other seat, as a nod to the sound for whoever is sitting there. If I had a bigger HT with more seats, I'd probably focus slightly less on the MLP and slightly more on the other seats. Feel free to experiment to see what works for you.

If you are new to Audyssey, the FAQ and 101 linked in my sig should prove to be valuable resources for you.
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post #834 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 07:26 PM
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Using the same microphones (calibration and measuring) for every customer gives me consistent results. One less variable in the equation.

A while back (years ago) I ran into some very strange measurement results. I finally ended up replacing the Pre/Pro. After a discussion with Chris K about the results, he asked me to ship the mic back for testing. Turned out to be a bad mic. It can happen. Again, one less variable...
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post #835 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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But if you use a non audyssey microphone for calibration without some calibration offset won't the calibrations be consistently... wrong? The microphone you use can't possibly have the same freq response as the audyssey mic right? The receiver has a cal file built in which is "expecting" the audyssey mic.

When you measure after calibration do the results approach the intended target curve?
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post #836 of 2109 Old 07-10-2014, 09:25 PM
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Let me try to make this clear. I use the same mics everytime. 1 Audyssey mic and 1 Dayton Audio Onmimic.

I don't unbox a new mic everytime I setup an audio system. I use a known good microphone.

I took a brief look at the rocket ship today. It appears to have sections so you can adjust the height. I didn't assemble it but it looks different than the photo Jdsmoothie posted.
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post #837 of 2109 Old 07-11-2014, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
Let me try to make this clear. I use the same mics everytime. 1 Audyssey mic and 1 Dayton Audio Onmimic.

I don't unbox a new mic everytime I setup an audio system. I use a known good microphone.

I took a brief look at the rocket ship today. It appears to have sections so you can adjust the height. I didn't assemble it but it looks different than the photo Jdsmoothie posted.
Tom - the question isn't about the quality etc of the mic you use but the fact that the AVR has a cal file built into it which expects to see an Audyssey mic. If you present it with a different mic, with an unknown (to the AVR) frequency response, how do you compensate for the difference?

Many of us have mics that are vastly superior to the provided Audyssey mic - but we don't use them for an Audyssey calibration for the reasons given.
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post #838 of 2109 Old 07-11-2014, 06:25 AM
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"On the 2013 models with a CD analog audio input (ie. E400, X2000/3000/4000) you can connect an external source to the CD input (as long as there is no video assigned to CD) and listen to it while watching a separate video source."

I heard this works also with CD optical input, is this true?
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post #839 of 2109 Old 07-11-2014, 08:09 AM
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^^
Yes, it will work with CD optical input as well.

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post #840 of 2109 Old 07-11-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Tom - the question isn't about the quality etc of the mic you use but the fact that the AVR has a cal file built into it which expects to see an Audyssey mic. If you present it with a different mic, with an unknown (to the AVR) frequency response, how do you compensate for the difference?

Many of us have mics that are vastly superior to the provided Audyssey mic - but we don't use them for an Audyssey calibration for the reasons given.
Read his reply again. He clarified that he DOES use an audyssey mic for calibration. He just used the same (assumedly a known "good" one) one every time.
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