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post #1 of 25 Old 05-22-2014, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey all,

 

I have recently gotten into AV equipment especially audio so I apologize if I ask a stupid question. I have a setup in my computer room strictly for music.

 

My current setup is:

 

Sony STR-DH130

Marantz CD Player

Technics Phonograph with Bheringer Pre-amp and a new audio-technica stylus

Sonos Connect

Wires all audioquest

Pair of Bowers and Wilkins 685 bookshelf speakers

 

Now I have heard alot of different things about amps and alot of people I talk to tell me I'm putting "regular fuel in a Ferrari" by hooking the Bowers Speakers to the Sony Amp. Others have told me since it is a simple music system it won't matter. My question is I guess would I, in theory, notice a worthwhile difference between my Sony and say the Marantz PM6005?  Again this is strictly for music. I currently think my Sony sounds pretty good, but again I'm not super experienced. 

 

Thanks guys,

 

Viper

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post #2 of 25 Old 05-22-2014, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperSRT2014 View Post

Hey all,

I have recently gotten into AV equipment especially audio so I apologize if I ask a stupid question. I have a setup in my computer room strictly for music.

My current setup is:

Sony STR-DH130
Marantz CD Player
Technics Phonograph with Bheringer Pre-amp and a new audio-technica stylus
Sonos Connect
Wires all audioquest
Pair of Bowers and Wilkins 685 bookshelf speakers

Now I have heard alot of different things about amps and alot of people I talk to tell me I'm putting "regular fuel in a Ferrari" by hooking the Bowers Speakers to the Sony Amp. Others have told me since it is a simple music system it won't matter. My question is I guess would I, in theory, notice a worthwhile difference between my Sony and say the Marantz PM6005?  Again this is strictly for music. I currently think my Sony sounds pretty good, but again I'm not super experienced. 

Thanks guys,

Viper

Yes you will notice a difference, it has %1 THD which is bad, very bad by today's standard. I would get your self a nice vintage receiver. Sony equipment has gone downhill like the other manufactures. Allow me to give an example; My cheap Kenwood receiver does 85 watts CONTINUOUS and and pulls 400 watts to deliver that 170 watts. Point being stuff from the 70's and early 80's had a solid amp stage where as the stuff today is more about features and power consumption. Hate to tell you this. Welcome to AVS!

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."
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post #3 of 25 Old 05-22-2014, 08:15 PM
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Unfortunately your example doesn't do much other than show how inefficient the amps were back in the 70s and 80s. ;-)
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post #4 of 25 Old 05-22-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Unfortunately your example doesn't do much other than show how inefficient the amps were back in the 70s and 80s. ;-)

Amps are still inefficient today, unless your talking class D or something. Anyways his receiver is still the weakest link in the chain.

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post #5 of 25 Old 05-22-2014, 09:34 PM
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Unless listening at very loud levels and driving the receiver into clipping I doubt you will notice any difference with a new receiver. Now if you got something with automated room correction or EQ of some kind that will obviously impact the sound.
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post #6 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 02:25 AM
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First off the Sony does not produce 1% THD. It's rated 90 watts x 2 (stereo) into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.09% THD. These are the proper specs. The Sony is a solid budget choice with discrete output stages.

If your not in a huge room looking to play at really loud levels the Sony will be just fine for the B&W's. I have owned those and they are not hard to drive. If you really want to gain real improvements in sound quality you should work on the room acoustics and speaker placement.
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post #7 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 02:31 AM
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kbeam418, what model is your kenwood? If it's 20 or 30 years old it probably needs servicing.

As for sound, well I can tell difference between amp makes, they don't sound all the same.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #8 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the input guys! The room my setup is in is a standard 12 X 16 room. Like I said I just wanted to clarify if there will be noticeable differences with people who are into AV outside of salesman talk. They have been very helpful, but the real world interpretation can differ from theirs. I appreciate your responses. So in short it seems while a Marantz is likely a better amp for a room this size with my volume usually around 20 on the amp for CDs and 30 or so for vinyls is not going to make a big enough difference to warrant the mounds of extra cash?

 

Thanks again!!

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post #9 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 05:02 PM
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If your Sony is functioning properly and you're not cranking it, then it's likely any improvements you would get from a more expensive amp/receiver would be from expectation bias.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #10 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 07:49 PM
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Viper,

You will not gain much by adding an integrated amp unless the power per channel is significantly higher on the integrated amp and you are able to utilize the extra power (you need a much higher volume or you need to move your speakers away from your current listening position). Another thing that an amp like the PM6005 can add to your system is the Bass, treble, and Loudness controls which may be useful depending on the way you like to listen to your music.

7.1 system consists of the following:
B&W 804 Di Front Speakers, B&W CM Centre 2 Centre Speaker, B&W 685 L&R Surround Speakers, Bose 301 V Rear Surround Speakers, B&W DB1 Subwoofer, Denon AVR-2310 7.1 used as a Preamp, Marantz MM7055 Amplifier, HRT Music Streamer II+ DAC as Source
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post #11 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

kbeam418, what model is your kenwood? If it's 20 or 30 years old it probably needs servicing.

As for sound, well I can tell difference between amp makes, they don't sound all the same.

Kenwood KA-89, it was used maybe two hours a day so it still has some life in it.

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post #12 of 25 Old 05-24-2014, 11:50 PM
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Sony is not that well regarded, but if it's amp is properly designed and your are playing at a low enough volume it should play as well as any other receiver or amp. I say play it until it fails then get a Yamaha smile.gif

Yamaha does make reasonably costed integrated amps. Or you could get a stereo receiver. Or an AVR even if you don't use all the features because they are the mainline product and there's probably economy of scale at work

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/amps/a-s500/?mode=model

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post #13 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Shebs80 View Post

Viper,

You will not gain much by adding an integrated amp unless the power per channel is significantly higher on the integrated amp and you are able to utilize the extra power (you need a much higher volume or you need to move your speakers away from your current listening position). Another thing that an amp like the PM6005 can add to your system is the Bass, treble, and Loudness controls which may be useful depending on the way you like to listen to your music.

I changed from a AVR with 70W output, to a stereo integrated amplifier that has 60W output. Not only does it sound better but it drives speakers better (more larger PSU with the stereo amp)

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #14 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

I changed from a AVR with 70W output, to a stereo integrated amplifier that has 60W output. Not only does it sound better but it drives speakers better (more larger PSU with the stereo amp)

Did you do your comparison level-matched? Quick switching? Blinded?

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post #15 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:29 PM
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Yes blinded with a ball gag, tied to a chair and wearing handcuffs.

Regardless huge sound quality upgrade from Yamaha AVR to Audiolab 8000S. If you think budget a AVR sounds the same as a fairly upper range stereo integrated amp...music came alive with the Audiolab far far more detail, stereo imaging, abilty to drive my speakers, sound better at higher volumes, far higher rated PSU..
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Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #16 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Yes blinded with a ball gag, tied to a chair and wearing handcuffs.

You Brits sure are kinky.
Quote:
Regardless huge sound quality upgrade from Yamaha AVR to Audiolab 8000S. If you think budget a AVR sounds the same as a fairly upper range stereo integrated amp...music came alive with the Audiolab far far more detail, stereo imaging, abilty to drive my speakers, sound better at higher volumes, far higher rated PSU..

So I take it your answer to all of my questions is "No."

By the way, I don't doubt the possibility of the integrated amp sounding better at higher volumes.

But imaging differences? Perhaps you mean imagining? wink.gif

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post #17 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:40 PM
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Stereo imaging a lot better, sounded pretty flat with the Yamaha. Bit like comparing stereo to mono. With the Audiolab had depth to it.

Different sonic sound too. Also had Rotel, Arcam, Roksan stereo integrated amplifiers.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #18 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:49 PM
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I notice all those things too when I compare one of my several integrated amps with one of my AVRs - when the comparison is sighted, not level-matched, and not quick-switched.

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post #19 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 03:53 PM
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yeah sure "all amps sound the same" rolleyes.gif

Arcam and Roksan Kandy K1 total opposites, Roksan so harsh and brash urrgh..

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #20 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 06:18 PM
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Every discussion doesn't need to result in a new debate on whether amps sound different...but for some reason they often do. Pick a side, live with it. The debate won't change too many people's minds.
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post #21 of 25 Old 05-25-2014, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Yes blinded with a ball gag, tied to a chair and wearing handcuffs.

Regardless huge sound quality upgrade from Yamaha AVR to Audiolab 8000S. If you think budget a AVR sounds the same as a fairly upper range stereo integrated amp...music came alive with the Audiolab far far more detail, stereo imaging, abilty to drive my speakers, sound better at higher volumes, far higher rated PSU..

Pulp Fiction reference?
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post #22 of 25 Old 05-26-2014, 07:11 PM
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How does a 60 wattx2 channel integrated amp have a bigger PSU than a higher end AVR designed to power 7 speakers with rating of at least 100x2 watts. I am pretty sure Yamaha's higher end AVRs have a transformer with an 800 VA+ rating. A small integrated amp is very unlikely to have a bigger PSU.

Or did I misunderstand something?
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post #23 of 25 Old 05-27-2014, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

How does a 60 wattx2 channel integrated amp have a bigger PSU than a higher end AVR designed to power 7 speakers with rating of at least 100x2 watts. I am pretty sure Yamaha's higher end AVRs have a transformer with an 800 VA+ rating. A small integrated amp is very unlikely to have a bigger PSU.

Or did I misunderstand something?

Yes you misunderstand. Yes many stereo integrated amplifiers have higher rated PSU for just 2 channels compared to a whole AV amplifier. That's why they can drive 4 ohm speakers and most AV amplifiers cannot, or struggle or sound congested. Also it's not a high end AV amplifier, same power output.. Also you'll find each channel has far more currnent to a AV amplifier, which are built to a cost.

Open up a dedicated power amplifier and stereo integrated amplifier and look for yourself.

That's why for high end I don't bother with AV amplifiers, a quality power amplifier has far more robust power supply. The one I had last had 2 x 1300VA PSU. Try getting that in a AV amplifier haha.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #24 of 25 Old 05-27-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Yes you misunderstand. Yes many stereo integrated amplifiers have higher rated PSU for just 2 channels compared to a whole AV amplifier. That's why they can drive 4 ohm speakers and most AV amplifiers cannot, or struggle or sound congested. Also it's not a high end AV amplifier, same power output.. Also you'll find each channel has far more currnent to a AV amplifier, which are built to a cost.

Open up a dedicated power amplifier and stereo integrated amplifier and look for yourself.

That's why for high end I don't bother with AV amplifiers, a quality power amplifier has far more robust power supply. The one I had last had 2 x 1300VA PSU. Try getting that in a AV amplifier haha.

Of the three integrated amps I have, compared to the one AVR I have:

Integrated Amp #1 has smaller transformer, smaller heatsink, but larger power supply caps compared to AVR
Integrated Amp #2 has similar size transformer, smaller heatsink, smaller power supply caps compared to AVR
Integrated Amp #3 has larger transformer, similar size heatsink, and larger power supply caps compared to AVR.

So what's the conclusion? Generalizing gets you in trouble.

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post #25 of 25 Old 05-28-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Yes you misunderstand. Yes many stereo integrated amplifiers have higher rated PSU for just 2 channels compared to a whole AV amplifier. That's why they can drive 4 ohm speakers and most AV amplifiers cannot, or struggle or sound congested. Also it's not a high end AV amplifier, same power output.. Also you'll find each channel has far more currnent to a AV amplifier, which are built to a cost.

Open up a dedicated power amplifier and stereo integrated amplifier and look for yourself.

That's why for high end I don't bother with AV amplifiers, a quality power amplifier has far more robust power supply. The one I had last had 2 x 1300VA PSU. Try getting that in a AV amplifier haha.

I thought the discussion was about a specific integrated amp (that was mentioned above) or integrated amps in general. Certainly there are some with large power supplies. I admit I am thinking of ones I am familiar with, and none had a particularly large PSU.

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