Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR Pre/Pro **Official Thread** - Page 460 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13771 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 06:28 AM
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Re: costs and performance. While this point should be common sense, I'll explain the obvious. Economy of scale plays a massive role in the production costs of an 8802A unit. There is a lot of engineering that is shared among much higher volume products. Then basic economics come into play like budget curves. So if the prepro price is raised by even a $1,000, that will sharply adjust down the total volume of a unit. It’s why the heavily related Denon X7200WA receiver at $3K retail outsells the 8802A by a lot. Sure, one reason is that the X7200WA has built in amps. But the budget curve has a lot to do with it. The same thing occurs if you compare the 7703 volume versus the 8802A. D&M sells many times the volume of the 7703 exclusively because of the budget curve (price). Nothing new here. So IF I asked Krell to go out and design a prepro that has all the features that D&M has including the incredibly GUI and intuitive room correction set-up, they would be asking $20K plus. Never mind that by the time they got all those features designed, the unit would already be obsolete Sound familiar? After all, D&M has 220 engineers; Krell maybe 5??? I'm not dissing them; it is what it is.

So when a boutique vendor decides to get into the prepro market, many times they need to use a DoD “cost plus” approach in order to figure out what to charge. Of course, charging a lot makes the volume collapses which mandates they charge even more to even break even. Example: When I helped make radiation hardened SRAM’s for space applications, it required two additional processing steps out of 100 as well as a specific layout technique. So an off-the-shelf commercial SRAM cost $1 and Honeywell charged the radiation hardened DoD customer $5500 per chip. Oh.. Legally, we were allowed to profit 10%, so we weren’t get rich. So no, Datasat isn’t making bank on their prepro even when the bill of material might be $1K. In fact, it's a very tough business to stay afloat. Datasat volume is squat and it is the reason they charge $5K just for Dirac software. In the prepro market and when charging $10K-$15K retail, you better make darn sure it looks and smells of quality. So they add $250+ to the jewelry (case and faceplate) so it looks the part. Then perception takes over and you get analogies to cars.

Don’t assume the $10K+ price point automatically means it sounds better or that they actually spent more on the parts. It depends. I will suggest that KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is a big reason why things sound better. It’s certainly the case with the Lyngdorf MP-50 I’ve been studying. It cost $10K. Same same as to why “Pure Direct” sounds better because it bypasses a lot of features/circuits. Therefore the case can be made that the 8802A would sound better if they actually spent less on the unit. But features add buyers/volume which allows economy of scale. So without Zone 2, you will lose some customers, without zone 3 even some more. Without legacy connections you will lose some more. The fact that Marantz has the resources and economy of scale with shared platforms is actually the reason why they sell more units and therefore it costs LESS! They aren’t nice guys, they have to charge less or their approach wouldn’t work.

So in actuality, “fully balanced” was not included because SQ wise, it’s not that big of a deal and it would become “expensive” to the customer. Not so much because of the added bill of material but rather because it is a sole-sourced board for only one platform. That $100 “fully balanced board/DAC cost will increase the RETAIL (I’m pulling numbers out of my butt) by $500 or more. But the slippery slope of $500 more will plummet the volume which means they have to charge more for the unit. Now maybe $1K more or $5K retail. As I have said before, a key reason why ANY vendor makes a prepro’s is to sell their matching amplifier. Companies in the separates business make their money on the amp and not the processor. So in Marantz case, they want to keep the 8802A reasonable to sell their matching amps. But make no mistake, if you add up all of the parts (including every chip and connector) and the cost it took to engineer the 8802A, they spent more than what a $10K-$12K prepro's spends.

The bottom line is I'm going to take an educated guess that a $15K Datasat (for instance) spent about the same on the bill of material (within a couple hundred). In fact, maybe the 8802A spent more. As to which sounds better, I'd have to listen for myself and I wouldn't let "retail" pollute my brain into thinking a $20K product is automatically better or that the vendor spent thousands more on the BOM; no way, no how. Prepro's, with their intense R&D effort and fast moving technology changes are the exception to the rule which normally suggests that spending 3X more ==automatic better performance. So if (in this example) the Datasat sounds "better", the bulk of it will be related to K.I.S.S. and or the auto room EQ. That will also be partially subjective.
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post #13772 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 06:35 AM
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My 8802A is losing its IP address and I don't think it's my router because everything else on my network is stable any suggestions.
I'm connected via WiFi

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It could be the Marantz but outside interference could be a issue too. Are you in a house condo apartment? Nearest neighborhood. Use your phone and a app called wifi analyzer and measure your signal next to the Marantz
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post #13773 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 01:30 PM
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Did you ever wonder why those high quality Mercedes parts break more often than the cheap Honda parts? Also maintenance costs on the Mercedes over the life of the car will likely be enough to buy a Honda.
Because Mercedes is not a reliable car. People buy Mercedes because they are safe cars. Most Mercedes owners trade in or sell their Mercedes when the warranty is up. To keep an old Mercedes on road is very expensive.

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post #13774 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 01:52 PM
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Please, can we give this a rest? It is a pointless discussion.
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post #13775 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 02:41 PM
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Because Mercedes is not a reliable car. People buy Mercedes because they are safe cars. Most Mercedes owners trade in or sell their Mercedes when the warranty is up. To keep an old Mercedes on road is very expensive.
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Please, can we give this a rest? It is a pointless discussion.
Car analogies don't work very well and in the way most people use them it is pointless.

People buy a Mercedes-Benz for the perceived status they think it gives them. It is not the best car, but people think that other people think they are someone because they bought one. I've had plenty of experience around them. Glorified money pits is an apt description. In Germany the perceived status isn't there. Audio products may have similar bent in the expensive exotica, but it's not the same. The best car to me is a car that doesn't break down and is reasonable to maintain. Fast and great handling is also important to me. I have Toyota & Lexus, I like not knowing my mechanic on a first name basis.
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post #13776 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Re: costs and performance. While this point should be common sense, I'll explain the obvious. Economy of scale plays a massive role in the production costs of an 8802A unit. There is a lot of engineering that is shared among much higher volume products. Then basic economics come into play like budget curves. So if the prepro price is raised by even a $1,000, that will sharply adjust down the total volume of a unit. It?s why the heavily related Denon X7200WA receiver at $3K retail outsells the 8802A by a lot. Sure, one reason is that the X7200WA has built in amps. But the budget curve has a lot to do with it. The same thing occurs if you compare the 7703 volume versus the 8802A. D&M sells many times the volume of the 7703 exclusively because of the budget curve (price). Nothing new here. So IF I asked Krell to go out and design a prepro that has all the features that D&M has including the incredibly GUI and intuitive room correction set-up, they would be asking $20K plus. Never mind that by the time they got all those features designed, the unit would already be obsolete Sound familiar? After all, D&M has 220 engineers; Krell maybe 5??? I'm not dissing them; it is what it is.

So when a boutique vendor decides to get into the prepro market, many times they need to use a DoD ?cost plus? approach in order to figure out what to charge. Of course, charging a lot makes the volume collapses which mandates they charge even more to even break even. Example: When I helped make radiation hardened SRAM?s for space applications, it required two additional processing steps out of 100 as well as a specific layout technique. So an off-the-shelf commercial SRAM cost $1 and Honeywell charged the radiation hardened DoD customer $5500 per chip. Oh.. Legally, we were allowed to profit 10%, so we weren?t get rich. So no, Datasat isn?t making bank on their prepro even when the bill of material might be $1K. In fact, it's a very tough business to stay afloat. Datasat volume is squat and it is the reason they charge $5K just for Dirac software. In the prepro market and when charging $10K-$15K retail, you better make darn sure it looks and smells of quality. So they add $250+ to the jewelry (case and faceplate) so it looks the part. Then perception takes over and you get analogies to cars.

Don?t assume the $10K+ price point automatically means it sounds better or that they actually spent more on the parts. It depends. I will suggest that KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is a big reason why things sound better. It?s certainly the case with the Lyngdorf MP-50 I?ve been studying. It cost $10K. Same same as to why ?Pure Direct? sounds better because it bypasses a lot of features/circuits. Therefore the case can be made that the 8802A would sound better if they actually spent less on the unit. But features add buyers/volume which allows economy of scale. So without Zone 2, you will lose some customers, without zone 3 even some more. Without legacy connections you will lose some more. The fact that Marantz has the resources and economy of scale with shared platforms is actually the reason why they sell more units and therefore it costs LESS! They aren?t nice guys, they have to charge less or their approach wouldn?t work.

So in actuality, ?fully balanced? was not included because SQ wise, it?s not that big of a deal and it would become ?expensive? to the customer. Not so much because of the added bill of material but rather because it is a sole-sourced board for only one platform. That $100 ?fully balanced board/DAC cost will increase the RETAIL (I?m pulling numbers out of my butt) by $500 or more. But the slippery slope of $500 more will plummet the volume which means they have to charge more for the unit. Now maybe $1K more or $5K retail. As I have said before, a key reason why ANY vendor makes a prepro?s is to sell their matching amplifier. Companies in the separates business make their money on the amp and not the processor. So in Marantz case, they want to keep the 8802A reasonable to sell their matching amps. But make no mistake, if you add up all of the parts (including every chip and connector) and the cost it took to engineer the 8802A, they spent more than what a $10K-$12K prepro's spends.

The bottom line is I'm going to take an educated guess that a $15K Datasat (for instance) spent about the same on the bill of material (within a couple hundred). In fact, maybe the 8802A spent more. As to which sounds better, I'd have to listen for myself and I wouldn't let "retail" pollute my brain into thinking a $20K product is automatically better or that the vendor spent thousands more on the BOM; no way, no how. Prepro's, with their intense R&D effort and fast moving technology changes are the exception to the rule which normally suggests that spending 3X more ==automatic better performance. So if (in this example) the Datasat sounds "better", the bulk of it will be related to K.I.S.S. and or the auto room EQ. That will also be partially subjective.
Well said Steve
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post #13777 of 14129 Old 06-25-2017, 08:22 PM
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i posted some pics here on my home forum which will show whats included

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topi...r-perspective/

had a friend just yesterday ask me to do one on his 7702 so no doubt still in demand and especially since its been given a life extension

ps my kit only cost me $730 aussie dollars express delivered half way mourned the world direct from audyssey. must be peanuts in home country as our dollar is only worth peanuts these days
Agree Al, i will not be giving up my pro kit for anything if i can help it and in fact i have just purchased the 8802a not only for the sonic beauty of the machine but because the pro kit does work and is far from cheaply made.Just to add to that Audyssey kindly transfered my licence from my dead AVPA1HD to the 8802a without me paying a cent.How good is that.They didnt have to do that but they did.
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post #13778 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:13 AM
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2 days ago while watching a Direct TV feed the screen went black and lost audio via HDMI input 1.
I changed input to the game input and it works OK but the audio decoding is not working correctly.
It will not decode the Dolby Digital audio properly and just comes out of the left speaker.

Reset to factory settings and installed the latest firmware I had been putting off doing.

I also tried changing 2 different HDMI cables that I know are fine.

No luck. Also the display with the non working input the display will not show a digital input present
where the others do.

Just checking if anyone has any thoughts before sending it in for repair.

I am going to call Marantz today for support.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
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post #13779 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:15 AM
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what i find interesting in this whole thing is even ! emotiva give the full dirac option which lets you use a calibration file for a mic. and yet marantz with its unit costing all these thousands is not going to allow the option of using a calibrated mic and uploading the calibration file that we can do now with audyssey pro.

I dont understand how this a step forward. and i know the stock answer back is going to be oh but you'll have an app ? yipee but id rather an accurate calibrated mic thanks .... as i can use now...

anyone from marantz listening you are welcome to hold that marantz 880X or what ever its going be back a bit for as long as you like to get this right ... I sure wont mind

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post #13780 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:29 AM
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May be for the simple reason, that a calibrated mike doesn't make that much of a (audible) difference at all in the context of those measurements, considering all the other problems, which usually exist in a living room...
Some people just crossly put this out of proportion, overestimating what this really does , but same things happen with other details too.
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post #13781 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:37 AM
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May be for the simple reason, that a calibrated mike doesn't make that much of a (audible) difference at all in the context of those measurements, considering all the other problems, which usually exist in a living room...
Some people just crossly put this out of proportion, overestimating what this really does , but same things happen with other details too.
I agree, and have expressed the same a number of times here. The versatility of being able to tailor the calibration results is going to affect the sound much more than the incremental benefits of a (slightly) more accurate mic. I speak from the perspective of a long-time Pro user who now enjoys the configurability of the Dirac Live target curve editor.
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post #13782 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Winslow View Post
2 days ago while watching a Direct TV feed the screen went black and lost audio via HDMI input 1.
I changed input to the game input and it works OK but the audio decoding is not working correctly.
It will not decode the Dolby Digital audio properly and just comes out of the left speaker.

Reset to factory settings and installed the latest firmware I had been putting off doing.

I also tried changing 2 different HDMI cables that I know are fine.

No luck. Also the display with the non working input the display will not show a digital input present
where the others do.

Just checking if anyone has any thoughts before sending it in for repair.

I am going to call Marantz today for support.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Sorry if this is a dumb question but it's kind of hard to tell from your post. Have you hooked up another source to the HDMI input that went bad?

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post #13783 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 06:27 AM
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May be for the simple reason, that a calibrated mike doesn't make that much of a (audible) difference at all in the context of those measurements, considering all the other problems, which usually exist in a living room...
Some people just crossly put this out of proportion, overestimating what this really does , but same things happen with other details too.
well actually they do. I myself know so since i have both the little plastic fantastic and the audyssey calibrated mic. I know which i prefer and I know the end result. and gee you can even see in the results how wrong the plastic fantastic gets it. very obviously our friends at emotiva and dirac are smart enough to provide the option. and marantz have been to as have audyssey. bless their socks

I see nad in latest news have also moved across to dirac....

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post #13784 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 08:11 AM
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But due to this calibrated mike you won't be able to hear any audible difference, with blind testing you wouldn't even be able to tell, especially in the area below the rooms Schroeder frequency.
But "expectations" is the name of the game, and if one knows and can see it, that the results have been achieved by a "calibrated" microphone they suddenly hear all the difference (if there are really any ).
This situation repeats itself over and over in other areas too
Believing is the name of the game...

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post #13785 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 10:31 AM
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But due to this calibrated mike you won't be able to hear any audible difference, with blind testing you wouldn't even be able to tell, especially in the area below the rooms Schroeder frequency.
But "expectations" is the name of the game, and if one knows and can see it, that the results have been achieved by a "calibrated" microphone they suddenly hear all the difference (if there are really any ).
This situation repeats itself over and over in other areas too
Believing is the name of the game...
Many people have reported that their D+M devices sound different when using different but supposedly "identical" tower microphones. In principle, individually calibrated mics would eliminate this problem.

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post #13786 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 10:42 AM
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The "standard" Audyssey microphone is been "officially" specified by +/- 2.0 db tolerance against an unspecified "reference microphone".
Those manufacturer "calibrated" microphones usually are been specified at its best by offering +/- 0.5 db tolerance against an unspecified "reference microphone".

Someone had tested one of those microphones being described as "calibrated" by the manufacturer (meaning: including an "individual" calibration file), and (surprisingly) found out that his "calibrated" microphone as tested displayed much larger differences when being re-calibrated by an independent calibration institute.
I wouldn't trust those run-of-the-mill "calibrated" microphones, because there is no real proof that the calibration is truly valid until you have it re-calibrated against a valid standard by a trustworthy laboratory.
...and trustworthy (known) calibrated professional microphones are quite expensive in comparison.

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The "standard" Audyssey microphone is been "officially" specified by +/- 2.0 db tolerance against an unspecified "reference microphone".
Those manufacturer "calibrated" microphones usually are been specified at its best by offering +/- 0.5 db tolerance against an unspecified "reference microphone".

Someone had tested one of those microphones being described as "calibrated" by the manufacturer (meaning: including an "individual" calibration file), and (surprisingly) found out that his "calibrated" microphone as tested displayed much larger differences when being re-calibrated by an independent calibration institute.
I wouldn't trust those run-of-the-mill "calibrated" microphones, because there is no real proof that the calibration is truly valid until you have it re-calibrated against a valid standard by a trustworthy laboratory.
...and trustworthy (known) calibrated professional microphones are quite expensive in comparison.
The individually calibrated microphones often used with REW are only about $100. Being able to use those same microphones for Audyssey would be a plus, I think. Since they're USB microphones, they would require some Audyssey design changes.
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post #13788 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 12:49 PM
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As stated already those "calibrated" low cost microphones don't seem to be trustworthy because their calibration isn't really. How do you know for sure
And who knows if those values stated are not there only for marketing purposes...
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Hi guys,
What about supporting HDR10



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post #13790 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 02:07 PM
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Hi guys,
What about supporting HDR10



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? The 8802A passes UHD signals with HDR10 just fine.
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post #13791 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 02:16 PM
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The individually calibrated microphones often used with REW are only about $100. Being able to use those same microphones for Audyssey would be a plus, I think. Since they're USB microphones, they would require some Audyssey design changes.
not much to ask is it ? other makers seem to appreciate and so does marantz (D&M) I can hear and see the measured difference with a calibrated mic. heck it even gets distances right, is repeatable. which the plastic fantastics simply arent. we spend thousands on gear like this I dont personally think its a huge ask to be given the option of introducing some accuracy to the calibration process...especially when it is THE main key measuring instrument

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Hi guys,
What about supporting HDR10



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what are you chasing ?

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post #13793 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
not much to ask is it ? other makers seem to appreciate and so does marantz (D&M) I can hear and see the measured difference with a calibrated mic. heck it even gets distances right, is repeatable. which the plastic fantastics simply arent. we spend thousands on gear like this I dont personally think its a huge ask to be given the option of introducing some accuracy to the calibration process...especially when it is THE main key measuring instrument
I still don't think you have presented any hard evidence that the Pro mic, with its better accuracy, produces an audibly or measurably better calibration result. And I am one who used the Pro kit for years before moving on the Dirac. I still think expectation bias is playing a role here.
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post #13794 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
what are you chasing ?


In Marantz Site, it is written under 8HDMI INPUTS,
(HDM - and extended colour space by standard BT.2020 are supported)
but for AV7703 and AVR7011 which are the newest.
It written under Latest HDMI 2.0a!!!!!???
(HDR - and BT.2020 PASS-Through supported on every input)
And you will find that all the new Denon avr support HDR PASS-Through not standard. Also check out yamaha 3060 vs 3070
Also HDR pass-through for 3070.

So AV8802A is not supporting HDR10.



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post #13795 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ice cube View Post
In Marantz Site, it is written under 8HDMI INPUTS,
(HDM - and extended colour space by standard BT.2020 are supported)
but for AV7703 and AVR7011 which are the newest.
It written under Latest HDMI 2.0a!!!!!???
(HDR - and BT.2020 PASS-Through supported on every input)
And you will find that all the new Denon avr support HDR PASS-Through not standard. Also check out yamaha 3060 vs 3070
Also HDR pass-through for 3070.

So AV8802A is not supporting HDR10.

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it does support and i have been utilising to pass through HDR10 for some 12 months plus and thats off 3 uhd players in the samsung, panasonic, oppo 203 and oppo 205

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post #13796 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
it does support and i have been utilising to pass through HDR10 for some 12 months plus and thats off 3 uhd players in the samsung, panasonic, oppo 203 and oppo 205


Thank you for make this clear, I will check out my PS4 Pro.


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post #13797 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:02 PM
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How many of you guys use the 12v trigger on the 8802a? I use one of the triggers and connect to my Rotel RMB 1575 and use a second mono cord daisy chained to my other Rotel amp a 1565. I think my amps may be turning on to quick and need a delay between the 8802a turning on, then the 1575 followed by the 1565. Is there a way to initiate a delay between amps turning on? If you do not use The 12v trigger how are you turning on your amps?Thanks for any input or help.
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post #13798 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
As an interesting side note related to quality. It was explained to me that the Japanese built 8802A is statistically more reliable than a product made in China (and now in Vietnam). A big reason is that engineering is on site and the adjustments and changes happen quicker. Yes, it is also assembled by employees that in many cases have worked at the factory for more than a decade. The women sitting down (not my wife standing up) has worked at the factory her entire working life and is getting close to retirement. Those employees are heavily experienced and delighted to work at the plant.


Ha.....I love this picture. I work for a Japanese electronics company and our meetings in Tokyo look the same....down to the type of tables. Lol



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post #13799 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
How many of you guys use the 12v trigger on the 8802a? I use one of the triggers and connect to my Rotel RMB 1575 and use a second mono cord daisy chained to my other Rotel amp a 1565. I think my amps may be turning on to quick and need a delay between the 8802a turning on, then the 1575 followed by the 1565. Is there a way to initiate a delay between amps turning on? If you do not use The 12v trigger how are you turning on your amps?Thanks for any input or help.
I use the trigger for my ATI amp. When the 8802 powers on, there is approx 2-3 seconds before the ATI powers on. Why do you think the trigger is happening too fast? I don't know any way to adjust the existing 2-3 second delay.
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post #13800 of 14129 Old 06-29-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
As stated already those "calibrated" low cost microphones don't seem to be trustworthy because their calibration isn't really. How do you know for sure
And who knows if those values stated are not there only for marketing purposes...
And how can you possibly take advantage of getting them calibrated? It is a closed system.

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