Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR processor - HDMI 2.0 ISF - Wifi + Bluetooth details - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 12:07 AM
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Question: How much is the Trinnov Optimizer Altitude 32?

And, how much is the Trinnov Optimizer Magnitude?

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* Last but not least: How do you make the right column with advertisements and Active Topics disappear,
or at least making it stop scrolling as you read down the posts? ...Very very annoying.
- Because when you are posting, and that you scroll down or up, to check the previous posts for some reference sentences or model numbers of components, you are blocked from seeing what you're looking for by that always following right column; this shouldn't happen @ all.

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post #362 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Question: How much is the Trinnov Optimizer Altitude 32?

And, how much is the Trinnov Optimizer Magnitude?

____________

* Last but not least: How do you make the right column with advertisements and Active Topics disappear,
or at least making it stop scrolling as you read down the posts? ...Very very annoying.

Thank you for your cooperation.
$30,000 to $40,000! Basically, if you got to ask you can't afford it1
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post #363 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
$30,000 to $40,000! Basically, if you got to ask you can't afford it1
That's why we asked.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #364 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
So you need another outboard Trinnov D/A box that can handle the digital DB25 connector for more than 16 "channels" in the main processor unit? Am I getting that right?
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Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
Maybe that comes with the package? If not, that will suck, but I guess that's not a problem when you can drop this kind of dough?
Here are the specs and pricing... http://www.themovierooms.co.uk/trinn...processor.html

I am assuming it starts at 18,000 pounds and then the options go up from there? It appears you only get 8 channels and then pay more for all the rest.

Denon 4520ci, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs, (2) Klipsch KP3002s, PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Monoprice Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 SUPER SPUD subs, Panasonic AE8000us SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Yamaha P7000s (for the subs), (2) Yamaha P2500s amps for the front (3) bass bins.
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post #365 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 03:39 AM
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post #366 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
HDCP has a lot to do with it WRT HDMI; that and the tiny market for such things. The consumer world's pre/pros are aimed at folks that want flexibility in what amps they use, so analog output is all that's needed as almost all dedicated amps use RCA or XLR inputs.
Yes, it's all about the silly copy protection, which if you're a true prate, can be easily broken. It's a 'consumer annoyance' feature as far as i'm concerned. But yes, that keeps true digital outs limited. Maybe HDMI 2.0 with its 32 channels of LPCM might work, but not sure if clocking ever got addressed. So we might see HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 as a link between pre-pro's and downstream processors like the Trinnov. MADI has been around for more than a decade, but no CP on that stuff, plus the interfaces seem costly.

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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
My understanding is that you can get by with RCA/XLR cables for short runs (under 6 feet as per a comment by Curt @ Trinnov on one of the threads on the $20K forum), or unbalanced RCA. It's the longer runs where balanced interconnects may have benefit, and given the value of the EQ vs. the additional conversion, the A/D/A issues are also IMO more secondary for most folks with conventional speakers and sources. But in the Trinnov world, you have also the flexibility of DB25 I/O, which is much more efficient than the individual channel interconnects. I wish some non-esoteric amps and higher end consumer AVRs or pre/pros had that feature, honestly.
Do consider that there is also the question of gain level compatibility between consumer (RCA) and pro (XLR) so it's more than just connector conversions. My experience leads me to lean towards making sure the chain from the pre-amp onwards is on pro-level balanced.
Agreed that DB25 is a very convenient way to bridge large numbers of channels on a single connector. It also gives you more options for connections with selecting the right kind of breakout snake.

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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
As for your choice of what Trinnov solution to get if you want to go that route, it's all about the time value of money, I suppose. Picking up the 8802 is advantageous, as you can swap the pre/pro as new tech and connectivity choices (not necessarily codec related) occur, every few years. But the Altitude as your pre/pro, which is going to be more expensive than their Magnitude or MC you'd use with the 8802, offers the potential for an AIO all-digital solution, and software based upgrades - as well as support for a larger number of potential channels to make full use of consumer Atmos (24.1.10 at the limit) than what DSP based, 1st gen Atmos is currently set up to do. Pay up front or pay "later".
Yep, that's what I've been wrestling with. The thought of paying the big bucks now for a 'future-proof' platform seems very attractive. But having been on the bleeding edge for decades, I've learned that claims of 'future-proof' and actual implementation are miles apart. For instance, I believed the Meridian 861 was the answer to future-proofing 15 years ago, but it lagged on so many fronts (e.g.HDMI), and the cost of the upgrades was such that other approaches were more timely and less costly.

With the rapid evolution in HDMI 2.x, 3D audio, DRC tech, etc. going on now, putting all my eggs in one very expensive basket is a concern for me at this time. So I've decided that I'm splitting the roles: high-end DRC and speaker processing via Trinnov with 16 input support and up to 24 output channels (I bi-amp 5 channels, so that's 10 outputs right there).
That let's me try new front-end boxes like the 8802, and then replace them every two or three years down the road whenever the latest-greatest box comes out.
Also, I have a planned config for the Trinnov that let's me feed it full digital directly from a dedicated HTPC (primarily a music playback system), so I would have a 'pure' one D/A step option for the majority of my critical listening content.

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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Well, we'll know more after CEDIA where it all nets out.

Bottom line: if you're going to be happy with a 7.1.4 configuration for Atmos, and are willing to wait for Auro or UHD, the Altitude has less potential value to a buyer than an 8802 or the Denon X5100 or 7200, even if you have the, um, resources to buy it.
Yep CEDIA will be very interesting this year. Can't wait.
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post #367 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
So you need another outboard Trinnov D/A box that can handle the digital DB25 connector for more than 16 "channels" in the main processor unit? Am I getting that right?
No, the Altitude has on-board support for up to 32 channels of analog out. 16 of them are on the built-in XLR's, the rest are on the DB25 outputs (use a breakout cable, this is common in pro-audio circles). Look closely at that back-panel pic.
Now, the Altitude can be ordered with as few as 8 channels of output support or the full complement of 32.

The Altitude can also support up to 16 channels of digital (AES off of a DB25) output to feed other downstream processing and/or a digital input amp. It also can be fed up to 16 channels of AES (via another DB25), so you can add a nice RME card to your HTPC and feed the Altitude up to 24/192 LPCM directly via that path.

Sorry to go off on this Trinnov tangent, but it is directionally indicative of what we will see in pre-pros and downstream DRC/Speaker processors in the coming years. By the time an 8805 rolls around, I'm hoping the only output it would have is an HDMI 2.0 jack, and customers could then select their choice of 'output box', so if you just want 8 channels of Analog, you pay less than the person needing 24 channels. Or they could offer Good and Best levels of these. And for those with third-party downstream DRC/Speaker processors, they just plug in with one HDMI cable. Another flavor of 'output box' I foresee is a WISA broadcaster box with one HDMI 2.0 input and it sends wireless audio to a bunch of WISA enabled active speakers. That would make setting up larger Atmos configs easier, especially in non-dedicated rooms.
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post #368 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Yep, that's what I've been wrestling with. The thought of paying the big bucks now for a 'future-proof' platform seems very attractive. But having been on the bleeding edge for decades, I've learned that claims of 'future-proof' and actual implementation are miles apart. For instance, I believed the Meridian 861 was the answer to future-proofing 15 years ago, but it lagged on so many fronts (e.g.HDMI), and the cost of the upgrades was such that other approaches were more timely and less costly.

With the rapid evolution in HDMI 2.x, 3D audio, DRC tech, etc. going on now, putting all my eggs in one very expensive basket is a concern for me at this time. So I've decided that I'm splitting the roles: high-end DRC and speaker processing via Trinnov with 16 input support and up to 24 output channels (I bi-amp 5 channels, so that's 10 outputs right there).
That let's me try new front-end boxes like the 8802, and then replace them every two or three years down the road whenever the latest-greatest box comes out..
I took that path many years ago.
Owned a Yamaha 2070 with prologic, than ac-3 came, than dts came.
So everytime a new reciever for €2000 + would be needed.
Bought a 861v2.5 for like €10.000, did upgrades to v3 and v4 (€1000 and €700 cost) software updates were things like dd-ex which for free.
Few years ago upgrade to v6 for 8 channel LPCM input which was trade in for €6000 and get a new v6 unit.

Path foreward with Meridian would be:
1) upgrade to v8 for €3200
2) wait for the plans to do Atmos, knowing every card is about €1000 normally. (Input processing and output needed as minimum)

So i decided to sell the whole system, and not spend €6000+ on the processor, and than dsp speakers of €3000 each for height speaker.

Took a huge loss, but can buy back a 8802 and full set of genelec speaker back.

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post #369 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 07:17 AM
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Here it is! the Ultimate AVR, only us mere mortals can dream of! 32 channels of pure bliss! The Trinnov Altitude 32







Funny, I thought it'd be bigger?

If I had to buy that at it's price I will be questioned by my wife. Im sure it's very nice but I don't want to see myself sleeping on a park bench

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post #370 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 11:22 AM
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^^ It's not for everyone: you have to think of a pre/pro as being as durable and as important to you as, say, a motorcycle, a boat, or a long vacation are to other people, and of course it's about the money/financing to get you there in the first place, which puts it outside of what I call the 3% (as opposed to the 1%, for whom "best in class" means spending the equivalent of pocket change). OTOH the software upgrade capacity, while an unknown, at least in theory allows you to update for new codecs over the Internet, similar to what Oppo Blu-Ray players can do. It's up to the manufacturer to provide useful future updates and keep up with Atmos 3.0, UHD 2.0, or whatever has market demand at that point in time - assuming any of them exist . But if it works out, at least you're not swapping receivers every two years as a sexy feature hits the market.

OTOH, if the Altitude is somehow "passed by" in the future, there's nothing to stop you from picking up the Marantz 8805 or whatever, simply use it for upmixing/rendering or connectivity-based features, and pass a signal over HDMI (TBD, with HDCP) or XLR pre-outs, if you have enough of them, into the Altitude and move on with life. That way you still get your Marantz pre/pro, as simply another dedicated source.

You also don't have to pick up a 32 channel unit: there's 8, 16, and 24 channel configurations as well, and you can add to it in 8 channel increments after the fact for additional cost TBD. Although if you're serious about the Atmos or Auro world, 16 is really where you'd want to start IMO. So even on AVS, it's a product aimed at a sliver of the "enthusiast" world.

@JonFo: I agree about WISA for supporting additional speakers. it's essentially the only practical way I can add wides in our non-dedicated living room.

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post #371 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 06:53 PM
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Although if you're serious about the Atmos or Auro world, 16 is really where you'd want to start IMO. So even on AVS, it's a product aimed at a sliver of the "enthusiast"
When you mean 16 are you also including subs into that?

In my dedicated HT room I can only accommodate upto 15 if it includes subs.

That is the best my room can only accommodate 7.4.4.
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post #372 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 07:57 PM
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When you mean 16 are you also including subs into that?

In my dedicated HT room I can only accommodate upto 15 if it includes subs.

That is the best my room can only accommodate 7.4.4.
Yes, I'm including subs, so at least one sub channel. In my room, one channel can effectively manage two subs on a Y-connector, as they're near field/equidistant from MLP and XT32/Sub EQ HT on my Denon 4311 traditionally sets their distance within 0.3 ft of one another after they're level matched. As you may know, a Marantz 8802 or other AVR with Sub EQ HT can manage two independent subs, or (with a Y-connector) two pairs of pairwise equidistant subs.

In your case, with four subs, if all four aren't pairwise equidistant, you want to consider a MiniDSP so that Audyssey or Trinnov can apply distance and level individually before EQing the entire sub channel as one (i.e, one sub pre-out and four subs out). That would leave you 15 non-sub channels to work with.

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post #373 of 873 Old 08-14-2014, 10:08 PM
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Personally, I'm waiting till wireless Atmos speakers become available. Only way I'm going to get dedicated ceiling speakers with the wife's approval! Either that or sleep in the street!


Here's hoping KEF comes out with wireless flat panel on-wall ceiling speakers with UniQ drivers. Maybe in two years? Although there soon to be announced special Atmos towers are interesting....

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post #374 of 873 Old 08-15-2014, 09:34 AM
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Personally, I'm waiting till wireless Atmos speakers become available. Only way I'm going to get dedicated ceiling speakers with the wife's approval! Either that or sleep in the street!

You can not have a truly wireless speaker. It will still require power whether by speaker cable or a typical AC powercord. Unless you want to use batteries.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #375 of 873 Old 08-15-2014, 10:34 AM
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You can not have a truly wireless speaker. It will still require power whether by speaker cable or a typical AC powercord. Unless you want to use batteries.

Yup, that's true - although if you have those power sources, surprisingly the specs on this one are for 80 watts x 2 (RMS as per the Amphony website):
http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Speak.../ref=pd_cp_e_1

However, I wouldn't want to put them to the test at "all channel driven", and it's an open question as to what distortion level you get at high normal listening volumes, let alone closer to 85 db reference listening. And CD quality isn't going to cut it if you're listening to Blu-Ray sources or other hires sources IMO. Think of the timbre matching problems then vs. your conventionally wired speakers...

The reviews are kind of funny...they work until your dog gets between the transmitter and amp

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post #376 of 873 Old 08-15-2014, 11:02 AM
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Lol exactly. If one were to go through the trouble and require AC power one might as well run speaker cable.

But that is what the 'Atmos-enabled' speakers were invented for.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #377 of 873 Old 08-16-2014, 01:31 AM
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Any word on street price for the Marantz AV7702, and date? Can the AV 7702 process 9.2.2 and does the AV8802 really process 13.2 channels? "11.2.2"
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post #378 of 873 Old 08-16-2014, 07:06 AM
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Any word on street price for the Marantz AV7702, and date? Can the AV 7702 process 9.2.2 and does the AV8802 really process 13.2 channels? "11.2.2"
1/ Don't know
2/ Yes, 9.2.2 is possible, just as 7.2.4
3/ We don't know yet. You can hook up 13 speakers (amps), but maybe only 11 will work simultaneously.

And if it would, I doubt 11.2.2 would be possible, if you read what's written on the backside: there's only one pair of side surrounds. 9.2.4 seems the only option.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.

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post #379 of 873 Old 08-16-2014, 07:20 AM
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Personally, I'm waiting ....Here's hoping KEF comes out with wireless flat panel on-wall ceiling speakers with UniQ drivers. Maybe in two years? Although there soon to be announced special Atmos towers are interesting....
We're did KEF announced new ATMOS speakers?
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post #380 of 873 Old 08-16-2014, 07:24 AM
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You can hook up 13 speakers (amps), but maybe only 11 will work simultaneously.

And if it would, I doubt 11.2.2 would be possible, if you read what's written on the backside: there's only one pair of side surrounds. 9.2.4 seems the only option.
9.2.4 is good for me . I would rather have quality than quantity
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post #381 of 873 Old 08-16-2014, 07:59 AM
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I would rather have quality than quantity
I am greedy and therefore refuse to choose!

Thing is, the AV8802 would be very overpriced if it didn't do more channels than the AV7702 AND produce better SQ. No?

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #382 of 873 Old 08-17-2014, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Today (and with the latest FW) a 8801 has an exceptionally high sound quality and I don't see why the 8802 wouldn't inherit of this capacity.

Now concerning the price difference between the 7702 and 8802, my opinion is that - as in the case of the Marantz 8801 and Denon 4520 - the internal architecture (processing) of the Marantz 8802 will again probably be based on a Denon X7200W.

Then if we follow the 4520/8801 logic, the 4520 had a 11CH processing that could be used with 9 its' internal amps and an additional stéréo amp. The 8801 processor having though a 11CH processing capacity with 11 HDAM modules driving the outputs.

So if we follow this same logic, in the X7200W/8802 case, my opinion is that the X7200W equipped with 9 internal amps, will probably have a full 13CH processing capacity enabling the use of 9.2.4 configurations - same as 11.2.2, but I doubt that could be 7.2.6 -, with the addition of 2 external stéréo amps.

And again based on the same logic, this could mean that the 8802 will possibly have this same above described full 13CH capacity, with 13 HDAM modules... and why not a THX Ultra 2 certification to "confirm" its' identify as a High End product... and though even more "justify" the price difference with a 7702.

But only time - and real availability of DTS-UHD -, will finally give us a clue...

Hugo

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post #383 of 873 Old 08-17-2014, 05:45 AM
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The question for me is how the additional two channels of the 8802 can be used? According to the picture of the back only as Front Wides. I can't install Wides in my setup and would rather have the possibility to choose for either a 3rd pair of celing speakers or a pair of top front or top back speakers!
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post #384 of 873 Old 08-17-2014, 06:11 AM
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Hugo, that's exactly how I am speculating too, looking at the rear side of the AV8802. It has to be 9.2.4 capable.

There is simply no other justifiable way if you take the price in consideration, relative to the AV7702/7701/8801.

Mmm, I might be tempted into the AV8802 then, as a "definitive" solution. Plan was to get the AV7702 for the HT build, and relocate it later to our living room (make that 5.1.4) when a "more-channel" processor would be available without paying silly amounts.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #385 of 873 Old 08-17-2014, 06:30 AM
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The question for me is how the additional two channels of the 8802 can be used? According to the picture of the back only as Front Wides. I can't install Wides in my setup and would rather have the possibility to choose for either a 3rd pair of celing speakers or a pair of top front or top back speakers!
If a third pair of top speakers would be possible, then it would indicate "Front Wide/Height 3". No 7.2.6 then, only 9.2.4

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #386 of 873 Old 08-17-2014, 05:58 PM
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We're did KEF announced new ATMOS speakers?
They didn't ? They showed off their Atmos enabled Speakers at a Dolby event in London. I saw a picture of them, forget which website though? They where a pair of towers, with built in Atmos speakers on top, so I'm only assuming they will announce new models by CES next year? Their very boxy looking but maybe that's not the final design? If they do announce it, I'll be grabbing me a pair of those real quick!


BTW, Pioneer has nice set of Andrew Jones Atmos Speakers coming out, might check those out too!

Last edited by kenoh89; 08-17-2014 at 10:48 PM.
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post #387 of 873 Old 08-23-2014, 12:35 AM
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The Altitude can also support up to 16 channels of digital (AES off of a DB25) output to feed other downstream processing and/or a digital input amp.
Doesn't HDMI prohibit digital audio output of HDCP protected data streams?

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post #388 of 873 Old 08-23-2014, 08:47 PM
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Doesn't HDMI prohibit digital audio output of HDCP protected data streams?
IIRC as long as it is limited to "CD" quality (44.1 or 48 kHz, 16 bits) it is permissible.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #389 of 873 Old 08-24-2014, 07:54 PM
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Trying to decide between the 7702 and 8802. I guess I have the time.
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post #390 of 873 Old 08-24-2014, 08:33 PM
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Trying to decide between the 7702 and 8802. I guess I have the time.
I'm at the same point as well. Gotta love first world problems hahaha
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