Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR processor - HDMI 2.0 ISF - Wifi + Bluetooth details - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 274 Old 06-12-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Audiguy3 View Post

That is disturbing that the Denon and Marantz are so much alike
You do realize that Denon and Marantz are the same company, D&M Holdings right?

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post #32 of 274 Old 06-12-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos is a mixing/rendering system. TrueHD and DTS are compression codecs. They can be used together, but I'm not sure what you mean by "add any value".

Does an Atmos enabled AVR/Processor has knowledge of the position of the surrounds and not just their distances?


If so , can this information be used to improve the surround sound from standard (not Atmos) encoded sources.


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post #33 of 274 Old 06-12-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Does an Atmos enabled AVR/Processor has knowledge of the position of the surrounds and not just their distances?
Yes. Current AVRs and pre-pros know speaker distances. Atmos enabled AVRs will have to know speaker distance AND speaker angle in order to properly render (map) the audio. Calibration will now have to include physical location (distance AND angle).
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If so , can this information be used to improve the surround sound from standard (not Atmos) encoded sources.
Rather than mapping objects & channel beds in an Atmos soundtrack, you're talking about re-mapping legacy channel-based content? Hadn't thought about it, but I don't see why not (IF manufacturers decide to implement such an option). Once you know where the speakers are, it's possible to make all sorts of use of that information.
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post #34 of 274 Old 06-12-2014, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
You do realize that Denon and Marantz are the same company, D&M Holdings right?
Yes I was aware of it but I also had read that they were keeping the R&D teams separate and were going after different markets.

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post #35 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes. Current AVRs and pre-pros know speaker distances. Atmos enabled AVRs will have to know speaker distance AND speaker angle in order to properly render (map) the audio. Calibration will now have to include physical location (distance AND angle).

Rather than mapping objects & channel beds in an Atmos soundtrack, you're talking about re-mapping legacy channel-based content? Hadn't thought about it, but I don't see why not (IF manufacturers decide to implement such an option). Once you know where the speakers are, it's possible to make all sorts of use of that information.
Correct, an Atmos processor will use the additional positional information for improved mapping of any stream, be it base or object. So if your 7.1 speaker layout is not 100% conformant to standard, the processor will take that into account and render the output such that say the left-surround appears where it should be (vs where the speakers are actually placed).

That's assuming one does not have a completely screwed up layout.

This is a huge value-add for Atmos-enabled boxes, as all legacy surround formats will benefit.

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post #36 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 06:10 AM
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13.2 is unlikely to make enough difference.

By my experiments in my setup, i would say that each of the DTS neo x 11 channel surround speaker should be doubled. In other words the main and center can stay the same but all other speakers should have a height speaker.

The auro3d voice of god speaker is also helpful, especially for off axis positions because it creates a better illusion of overhead sound.

He height layer actually adds the feel of "infinite" speakers because you can no longer tell exactly where all the surrounds are anymore.

I strongly suggest anyone build a new theater to hide the speakers behind acoustic transparent fabric. By eliminating the distraction of the visible physical speaker, the illusion of surround is greatly improved.

In the past, in 7 channel setups, i could never get the surround field to be totally coherent. Nothing like a massive number if channels to solve this problem.

Even with polk audio surround in-wall speakers (not too pricey), I got a phenomenal effect.

20+ channels and 4+ subwoofers is like home theater nirvana. Seriously, most folks under-rate how cool this actually sounds.

I think you can accomplish atmos sound for a reasonable price if you are careful with speaker selection and use pro amplifiers for all the surround channels.

The marantz 8802 is NOT going to be worth the price because it doesnt do enough channels above the 8802 (which I have). It is certainly not worth the upgrade from the 8801 at this time.

The extra money could be spent on more speakers and amps in anticipation of Atmos to come.

Your media room will retain its value LONG into the future if you put in 16+ suttound channels today. They will probabaly start putting out more 8+ channel class D home theater amps for Atmos before too long within a reasonable price range.

5.1 will be a distant memory, at least to enthusiasts.
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post #37 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
That's assuming one does not have a completely screwed up layout.
Yes, Atmos isn't a re-mapping tool for fixing asymmetrical layouts. You dial in approximately where your speakers are to aid the rendering engine. Whether that information is also used when playing back legacy content remains to be seen (I'm hoping so but not counting on it).

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post #38 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 09:16 AM
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True, atmos content needs to come out for you to take full advantage.

In the meantime, simply increasing speakers per channel on a dts neo x arrangement sounds VERY good.

I havent seen anyone do what I have specifically done yet.

Essentially i can use a matrixed system of extra channels IF my speakers happen to approximately in the right spots (mine are essentially auro3d setup more or less).

If atmos allows you to setup each speaker location customized, i should be able to use all 19 channels i have now.

Either way, carpeting the walls and ceiling with speakers (assuming you can do this in a reasonable budget), can't really "hurt" anything.

Pro amps with excess wattage + budget conscious in-wall speakers that crossover at about 80hz is the way to go.

I am assuming that an atmos pre-pro would default to dts-neo X or audyssey 13.x if there is no atmos native signal.

Atmos processing itself may simply "copy" the dts neo X strategy of matrixing a 7.1 format (non-atmos content) into whatever number of channels you have. I hope this is the case so that I dont have to push the surround field button ... Ever.
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post #39 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 09:33 AM
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Remember that another approach to adding the ceiling layer is to go active, so with 4 powered active speakers like the Emotiva Airmotiv 6S ($650 a pair) and some long balanced interconnects, one can do this at a reasonable cost with excellent performance.

I'm contemplating that option for my rig, as somehow attaching four electrostats to the ceiling seemed like a bit much, even for me
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post #40 of 274 Old 06-13-2014, 10:05 AM
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Perfectly valid way to get speakers up by doing actives, but you still will need to run power to those locations in your ceiling. I have had varying success with amp quality on active speaker amps. Too much hiss can be a problem.

I like the amps in my rack where i can control the situation to prevent ground loops etc. rack mounted amps would provide an easier servicability too.

If I did it again, instead of crown 2ch amps, i think i would go for the QSC dsp 4 channel amps (less rack space needed).

Good 8 channel 2u amplifiers should hopefully come out similar to lexicon's amplifer.
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post #41 of 274 Old 06-14-2014, 09:14 AM
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^^^ Luckily, I had the foresight to wire my custom HT ceiling with both power and speaker wire (but only 1 for a VOG channel) + some RG6 coax for digital signals. So if some processor output MADI (64channel 24/96 stream) then that one coax cable would let me service all top layer speakers from a MADI decoder box up there. And power for actives is already there.

But some amps in the rack powering four KEF LS50's would be my other option, since I need to run four more wires (balanced line or speaker wire) in either case.

BTW- this is yet another reason people should paint HT ceilings black. That really makes junk hung from the top disappear. I even painted the top 12" of the walls black just to reinforce that. Works great with 10' tall ceilings.

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post #42 of 274 Old 06-17-2014, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiguy3 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Hugo S

Hi,

The new Marantz AV8802 relacing the actual AV8801 has been announced, it's a 13.2 XLR processor, HDMI 2.0 ISF video and Wifi + Bluetooth integrated, with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and an Audyssey Pro capacity. Indicated Public Price : 3800€... on the high side compared to the 8801 listed at @ 2800€.

See details here :

http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-14423...e-lav8801.html (in French)




and for information to be compared to Denon's AVR-X7200W rear panel :



Hugo


That is disturbing that the Denon and Marantz are so much alike

Yes same company I think I found the replacement of my SSP-800 when they release ATMOS and AURO 3D and it works like it supposed to

I like the MADE IN JAPAN
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post #43 of 274 Old 06-17-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
13.2 whatever, i want 20.2. How hard it is to throw out some of the other inputs and outputs and throw a few channels more on a preamp!?
Yes DATASAT the price is a bit exorbitant They should get rid of Component video hello
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post #44 of 274 Old 06-17-2014, 04:40 PM
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The 13.2 would be processed via audyssey or neo x? I got to 19 channels from doubling some channels in an 11.2 system and it sounds phenomenal.

Practically seamless soundfield.

MUCH cheaper than buying a 8802. Two more processed channels that arent discreet wont be much better than what I did for a lot cheaper. For enthusiasts, 20.4 is the bare minimum i would build into a flagship processor once atmos is releases, especially if it is to have atmos. Let the consumer decide to use all the channels or not. This next marantz release is likely to not be ready for atmos if I had to guess... They are likely waiting for the specifications to be completed before committing to a higher channel count.
So you use Y XLR do you use the same speakers and same amps? I can't imagine using 800D2 and 802D2 as ceiling or height speakers 9.2 is all I can do for now but when the time comes I might get four 805D2 so it can be 12.2. But first I want to get a few more subs 4 subs would be ideal with each corner covered!
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post #45 of 274 Old 06-17-2014, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiguy3 View Post

That is disturbing that the Denon and Marantz are so much alike
What do you expect? They're the same company. Welcome to the consolidation of the audio industry where brands mean almost nothing. Back during the hi-fi era, audio companies were generally owned by their chief designer and the sound of their components was reflected by their design philosophy. It was more like fashion. You could listen to a component and pretty much know who designed it. So you had designers/owners like Edgar Vilchur, David Hafler, Avery Fisher, Tom Holman, Henry Kloss, Frank McIntosh, H.H. Scott, etc.

Most manufacturers today are nothing but labels - their equipment is manufactured (and sometimes designed) by a third party in China. Thankfully, McIntosh was sold by DM Holdings to Fine Sounds (Milan), so some design diversity will be maintained.

Also, much of how a receiver or pre-pro will be designed is dependent upon the primary processing chips and those are all third party, and the room correction system variant, much as most computers today use some version of an Intel processor and some variant on the same graphics processor.

Although manufacturing relationships change over time, as of 2011, it was reported that Pioneer and Denon AVRs below $1299 were designed/assembled by Inkel, the parent company of Sherwood. Onkyo AVRs below $1499 were designed by an independent Korean team who also did design for Harmon/Kardon. However, the Onkyos were assembled in their own Malaysian factories while HK, NAD, Marantz and Teac were assembled in Chinese factories. Those relationships could have changed by now, but the point is that the A/V industry is no longer composed of individual companies doing individual and unique design.
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post #46 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 03:36 AM
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How sure are we that those rear panels are what the real product will be and not mock-ups?
Sure they might reuse the back panel of the Denon, but it seems too much like a "copy the Denon and replace the speaker binding posts by XLR outputs".
It's a shame that there's no proper USB control as mentioned earlier. How many people still use all those component outputs? The presence of a "flasher" connection is revealing IMO: it would suggest that the 8802 has some internal components that are bolted on / seperated from the RS232 connection normally used for Audyssey and automation. Maybe that socket will be used to update firmware that cannot be updated over the internet / USB? If so, which part?

For what it's worth, I actually like the mini-hub on the 8801 and use it for my network-enabled devices (blu-ray, dune, etc) to save up on network ports on my switch. At first, I moaned it wasn't gigabit so have resorted to just using it for my media devices. I guess the move to WiFi means they thought it's not worth putting in a hub - there's still real-estate left on the back so there would be room for it.

But if it's going to cost an extra $1000 for the extra two channels, it's not worth it for me, I'll stick to my 8801
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post #47 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 05:16 AM
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I've done some pretty intensive blind testing with two friends on two occassions using nine identical speakers and the scubasteve demo disk surround tracks and none of the three of us could reliably tell the difference between 9.1 and 7.1 with my onkyo 5508 preamp. All nine spealers were mackie c200 passive monitors for this test. All speaker levels were matched within .5 db with omnimic. I've personally concluded if the channels aren't encoded seperately in the sound mix the matrixing of additional distinct surround channels is not worth pursuit.

I do like all channel stereo with nine mackie c200 way more than two channel stereo, but for movies with 7.1 tracks I couldn't tell when it was nine or when it was seven and on 5.1 recorded tracks I couldn't tell when it was 5, when upmixed to 7, or even when upmixed to 9. Only speakers matched to the quantity of the originally recorded channels mattered. Every thing else was discovered to be audio blind placebo when blind tested. My friends thought the same.

So 13.2 does nothing to excite me.

Bring on Atmos.

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post #48 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 11:31 AM
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So no Atmos on this, huh? Guess I'll be hanging onto my 8801. No real reason to change it out.

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post #49 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 12:49 PM
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Should be easy to Split the Height Signal to an Ext Amp & have Front AND Rear Height; just sayin'...
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post #50 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
So no Atmos on this, huh? Guess I'll be hanging onto my 8801. No real reason to change it out.
I'm going to sit on the fence this time. Not rushing into it.
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post #51 of 274 Old 06-19-2014, 08:27 PM
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I'm going to sit on the fence this time. Not rushing into it.
I'm on the fence too. But I'm weak... might not be able to resist...
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post #52 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 01:04 AM
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I hope Marantz has fixed the heat issue in this one :-)
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post #53 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 03:17 AM
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I hope Marantz has fixed the heat issue in this one :-)
+1.
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post #54 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 04:31 AM
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I hope Marantz has fixed the heat issue in this one :-)
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
+1.

The copper plate was not helping. I looked at the 8801 and there were not many holes for airflow. It was a dubious feature, akin to Yamaha's fifth foot


I would like to see an option to turn off the front panel in any mode. Considering the video chip is always running, the LCD display is not going to be a large noise contributor. And if it is, why not reduce the noise when using Audyssey


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post #55 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 07:28 AM
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I was at the D&M offsite room at CES and one of the PHD's at Dolby gave a demo on Atmos with mock-up speakers. I was blown away even when they took the 2nd best method for the demo. Meaning, they had side floor speakers with a dedicated amplified driver aiming directly at the ceiling; it's a timing thing and it sounds like information coming overhead.

IMHO, a better way is to put speakers in the ceilings firing down (ESPECIALLY for vaults etc). In a perfect situation and for most rooms, the Dolby employee said to put a pair of speakers in front of the listening position and another pair slightly behind the listening position. As we get closer to release, I'm going to see if I can have a Q&A session with him to answer all my 200 questions.

To reaffirm this technology is a game changer. It's not like we are slumming it with 7.2. But as sure as I am sitting here, passionate enthusiasts who have the means and space for more channels WILL be pleased with the end result. There is absolutely positively NO doubt in my mind. This isn't a "more speaker is better argument". This technology is a paradigm shift. The jury is out when we will see Dolby DVD software. But nothing has to be re-coded for every movie that has already been released in Atomos at the theater. Also, D&M didn't put extra outputs for pie-in-the-sky reasons. The demo was to show off pending Atmos pure and simple. Personally, I predict they will delay the release of the 8802 longer than Christmas and into Q1. I'll also know they are working on the 8803 just as Toyota is working on the 2017 cars. DISCLAIMER: I do not know of any inside information on this 8802. They are extremely tight lipped.

Re: sharing technology (Denon and Marantz). Nothing new here. A tweaked out Toyota is called a Lexus. The 8801 has (pseudo) balanced, the current best HDAM's (op amps versus semi's), an oversized toroidal power supply, audiophile signal caps, a low noise chassis, more real estate to lower the noise floor by separating the boards, etc. According to the designers, lower noise ==lower jitter and that's part of the sonic gain. The net-net is it sounds slightly better. With lower volume comes a higher price tag too. My next door neighbor might pay $100 for that sound quality difference while my passionate customer would pay $3000 more. What someone will pay is proportional to their level of passion, thickness of the wallet, and how much testosterone is flowing through their veins. But my next door neighbor has a theater in a box. He doesn't care about sound quality and good for him because he saves money. I diverge...

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post #56 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I was at the D&M offsite room at CES and one of the PHD's at Dolby gave a demo on Atmos with mock-up speakers. I was blown away even when they took the 2nd best method for the demo. Meaning, they had side floor speakers with a dedicated amplified driver aiming directly at the ceiling; it's a timing thing and it sounds like information coming overhead.
Most consumers don't want to make holes in the ceiling. So the next few years will be interesting, seeing how creative speaker manufacturers can be in creating virtual height speakers.

Sanjay
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post #57 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 11:10 AM
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Most consumers don't want to make holes in the ceiling. So the next few years will be interesting, seeing how creative speaker manufacturers can be in creating virtual height speakers.
Very true. That is one of the reasons why people don't have front projectors. But people who spend $2.5K-$5K on prepro's have the $$'s to hire people to to wire, install, and patch holes in their ceilings.

I was fooled by the virtual height demo. It was a darn good demo. But I just don't think speaker brands like Sonus Faber and Focal (for instance) will be making virtual height sides anytime soon (if ever). Surely Klipsch, Boston Acoustics, Definitive Tech will be engaging in that market. But most of my customers who spend big dollars on separates own boutique speaker brands. So in essence, the total available market of Atomos buyers could be limited for several reasons and may cause a slow rollout/acceptance.

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post #58 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've done some pretty intensive blind testing with two friends on two occassions using nine identical speakers and the scubasteve demo disk surround tracks and none of the three of us could reliably tell the difference between 9.1 and 7.1 with my onkyo 5508 preamp. All nine spealers were mackie c200 passive monitors for this test. All speaker levels were matched within .5 db with omnimic. I've personally concluded if the channels aren't encoded seperately in the sound mix the matrixing of additional distinct surround channels is not worth pursuit.

I do like all channel stereo with nine mackie c200 way more than two channel stereo, but for movies with 7.1 tracks I couldn't tell when it was nine or when it was seven and on 5.1 recorded tracks I couldn't tell when it was 5, when upmixed to 7, or even when upmixed to 9. Only speakers matched to the quantity of the originally recorded channels mattered. Every thing else was discovered to be audio blind placebo when blind tested. My friends thought the same. So 13.2 does nothing to excite me. Bring on Atmos.
Interesting, I have a 9.2 system with two VOG in ceiling mounted right over the seats, and I can tell you I can notice a great difference between 5.2, 7.2 and 9.2. When there is rain, helicopter, planes, space ships, explosions any good action or better sci-fi movies I love it.

Like you I want ATMOS with discrete channels


All channel stereo is best with 7.2 800D2 and 802D2 make it live

Just put these in the ceiling


or these http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...es/CCM8-5.html

Last edited by wse; 06-20-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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post #59 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 12:29 PM
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But most of my customers who spend big dollars on separates own boutique speaker brands. So in essence, the total available market of Atomos buyers could be limited for several reasons and may cause a slow rollout/acceptance.
Considering all the leaked info points to receivers (excepting the Marantz pre-pro), seems the initial roll-out of Atmos isn't aimed at big dollar buyers of AV separates and boutique speaker brands. Heck, one of the Denons was a 7.1 receiver (L/C/R + 2 surrounds + 2 heights). Aiming for receiver-buying consumers might not make for a slow roll-out, since they are such a large segment of the market.

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post #60 of 274 Old 06-20-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Considering all the leaked info points to receivers (excepting the Marantz pre-pro), seems the initial roll-out of Atmos isn't aimed at big dollar buyers of AV separates and boutique speaker brands. Heck, one of the Denons was a 7.1 receiver (L/C/R + 2 surrounds + 2 heights). Aiming for receiver-buying consumers might not make for a slow roll-out, since they are such a large segment of the market.
I was addressing your point of people not wanting to put holes in their ceilings. We agreed; many won't engage. Then those 8802 type customers won't be embracing Atmos (unless they mix and match their boutique brands for virtual sides/height). Yet another group won't like dumbing down their sides as well. Hence, a slow rollout of Atmos for the higherend consumers will occur.


The savior for a subset is that they have thicker wallets to put in those in ceiling height speakers. Personally for cosmetic reasons, I am not a fan of speaker boxes on the sides and rears of my room. I'll definitely take the trade-off of adding in ceiling speakers. Again for me, onwalls are better than a boxed speaker. But integrating a virtual height might have compromises. In nearly all cases, fantastic in-ceilings are less $$'s that box speakers because you are not paying for the jewelry.

Steve Herrala

Last edited by SteveH; 06-20-2014 at 01:42 PM.
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