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post #1 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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New vs. Refurbished

I have been looking at the Denon x4000 for the past month. I have found that I can purchase it factory refurbished for almost half.

New
$1,299

Refurbished
$799


Would like to know what everyone's view and experience is with refurbished receivers.


Thanks,
Jeff
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post #2 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurovw89 View Post
I have been looking at the Denon x4000 for the past month. I have found that I can purchase it factory refurbished for almost half.

New
$1,299

Refurbished
$799


Would like to know what everyone's view and experience is with refurbished receivers.


Thanks,
Jeff
I almost purchased a Yamaha receiver refurbished. Use a credit card with extended warranty coverage. Usually they will double the manufacturer's warranty up to an additional year. I prefer to use American Express as they seem easiest to deal with. Used it about 6 months ago & saved me a $275 repair on a Panasonic TV.
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post #3 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 07:26 AM
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Go for the refurb!

I purchased a refurb Denon 2313 a couple years ago, and its been great! To me its a no brainer, a factory refurb for a receiver is perfect! Accessories4less was easy to deal with and they offer a one year warranty, plus the option to add more if you want.

When I finish my basement, I will be getting my processor/receiver refurbished with no hesitation.

Enjoy!
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post #4 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 07:35 AM
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I recommend contacting jdsmoothie with avs. AVS sells new Denons, and he may be able to quote a price better than that $1,299.
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post #5 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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how is AC4L warranty company? easy to deal with...."if" i have any problems?
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post #6 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurovw89 View Post
how is AC4L warranty company? easy to deal with...."if" i have any problems?
Yes, Their CS is excellent. At least in my experience. They actually answered the phone and were a tremendous help.
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 08:11 AM
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurovw89 View Post
how is AC4L warranty company? easy to deal with...."if" i have any problems?
Key points are..
How well do they handle returns?
Who pays the freight?
How long is the warranty?
What is covered?
Were all the accessories included?
Remotes, antennas, AC cord?

Buying a refurb can save big $ but be advised the unit was returned for a certain problem..
And unfortunately many of these issues are not found in the short abbreviated testing done on each refurb...

Just my $0.05...
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post #8 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 10:44 AM
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A4L is not a warranty company - the X4000 comes with 1 year warranty from Denon since A4L is an authorized retailer. You can also by a refurb from Denon directly if you are so inclined. I have actually bought 2 receivers from A4L which are still going strong and helped get me into better unit for a lot less $ then new. Both were in perfect condition as well and no issues with A4Ls customer service. Personally I look at a refurb as a unit that has been tested and the issue fixed, so I guess I differ with M Code on that one.

Just my 2 cents - but I am speaking from personal experience. I would also recommend you check with JD about the cost of a new one. He is known to have made forum members some great deals and JD is right up there at the top when it comes to knowledge of the Denon product line along with Batpig.
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post #9 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
A4L is not a warranty company - the X4000 comes with 1 year warranty from Denon since A4L is an authorized retailer. You can also by a refurb from Denon directly if you are so inclined. I have actually bought 2 receivers from A4L which are still going strong and helped get me into better unit for a lot less $ then new. Both were in perfect condition as well and no issues with A4Ls customer service. Personally I look at a refurb as a unit that has been tested and the issue fixed, so I guess I differ with M Code on that one.
Units are returned for multiple reasons..
  • Didn't like the unit
  • Got a better price somewhere else
  • Wife said NO
  • AVR had technical, quality issues

Once a unit has been opened/returned it can't be sold as new, note that typical return rate of units sold through the internet & big box retailers have a 15% return rate....
So many units have nothing wrong technically, maybe just a cosmetic scratch..
However the refurb lines are like mini production lines, an AVR is powered up, audio & video signals are run through, remote is tested and unit is marked as OK...
The longer term, deeper technical issues are not found..

This may only apply to 10% of the units tested but happens, so one is basically rolling the dice hoping not to get a bad unit.. So in the majority of instances, the product is fine except for maybe a scratch or ding...
The problem is when one does get a bad unit, how responsive is the seller...

Just my $0.05...
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post #10 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 01:22 PM
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I know you post a lot on AVS so that 5 cents is more like $490 now, so your 10% figure is from where just out of curiosity? I assume you have some personal experience like I do or others who have bought from A4L? Finally, the risk you refer to with a refurb long-term is no greater than buying a new unit since neither is tested beyond the basic QA coming out of the factory. As I mentioned before the warranty is provided by Denon.

I could care less to debate pro or cons, just pointing out it worked well for ME. Still would give JD a call
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post #11 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 02:14 PM
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I've owned several Denon AVRs over the years. 4 of these were Denon factory refurbs. 3 of the 4 refurb AVRs had issues when I received them. One I returned to the dealer who sent a replacement unit and that one worked without issue. For another one I ended up sending it to Denon's service center in NJ to have it repaired (the dealer couldn't replace because they didn't have any more). Finally, the most recent refurb one I purchased was DOA and the dealer didn't have any more and I returned it for a full refund (incl. shipping both ways) rather than me paying shipping to Denon to have it repaired. Factory refurb Denon AVRs do come with a short warranty from Denon, so if you purchase one be certain to check out all of the features/functions to verify everything is working. I've owned Denon AVRs for perhaps 25 years and I've never had one I purchased new fail on me nor have I had a refurb fail once I got it fully functional (after an initial repair or replacement).

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post #12 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 02:25 PM
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" A4L is not a warranty company - the X4000 comes with 1 year warranty from Denon since A4L is an authorized retailer. "


That is your one big difference - you get a 3 year warranty on new units. Give us a call at AV Science before buying a refurb !

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post #13 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I've owned several Denon AVRs over the years. 4 of these were Denon factory refurbs. 3 of the 4 refurb AVRs had issues when I received them. One I returned to the dealer who sent a replacement unit and that one worked without issue. For another one I ended up sending it to Denon's service center in NJ to have it repaired (the dealer couldn't replace because they didn't have any more). Finally, the most recent refurb one I purchased was DOA and the dealer didn't have any more and I returned it for a full refund (incl. shipping both ways) rather than me paying shipping to Denon to have it repaired. Factory refurb Denon AVRs do come with a short warranty from Denon, so if you purchase one be certain to check out all of the features/functions to verify everything is working. I've owned Denon AVRs for perhaps 25 years and I've never had one I purchased new fail on me nor have I had a refurb fail once I got it fully functional (after an initial repair or replacement).
Ron - where did you buy them? Thanks. Steve
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post #14 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
I know you post a lot on AVS so that 5 cents is more like $490 now, so your 10% figure is from where just out of curiosity? I assume you have some personal experience like I do or others who have bought from A4L? Finally, the risk you refer to with a refurb long-term is no greater than buying a new unit since neither is tested beyond the basic QA coming out of the factory. As I mentioned before the warranty is provided by Denon.

I could care less to debate pro or cons, just pointing out it worked well for ME. Still would give JD a call

My comments are fact not opinion..
There is a risk in buying a refurb, so yes one can save $ but if caught with a lemon it can be a headache to settle things. Everything is rosey until you get stuck with one, so one has to weigh this risk vs. $ saved.. No different than going to Vegas and playing the slots... Some leave as winners and other leave as losers..

Just my $0.05...
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post #15 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
My comments are fact not opinion..
There is a risk in buying a refurb, so yes one can save $ but if caught with a lemon it can be a headache to settle things. Everything is rosey until you get stuck with one, so one has to weigh this risk vs. $ saved.. No different than going to Vegas and playing the slots... Some leave as winners and other leave as losers..

Just my $0.05...
Your comparing buying a refurb to playing the slots is absurd. So using that analogy buying new carries the same risk, because you can get a new receiver that is DOA or has issues as well.

Please forgive me for not taking your comments as undisputed facts despite not seeing any, I should now better than to doubt God after 8 years on this forum, I mean M Code
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Your comparing buying a refurb to playing the slots is absurd. So using that analogy buying new carries the same risk, because you can get a new receiver that is DOA or has issues as well.

Please forgive me for not taking your comments as undisputed facts despite not seeing any, I should now better than to doubt God after 8 years on this forum, I mean M Code
As most tenured AVS followers know well, my comments are factual and intended to assist the reader.. @ certain times one may not agree or chooses to ignore, no biggee..
Regarding the reference to religion & god, we will leave this until Sunday..

Just my $0.05..
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 04:43 PM
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have you thought about used

I put together a great system with used components from E-bay in around 2003 I purchased a Carver AV705x 5 channel amplifier a Rotel RTC 965 Tuner Preamp-processor Infinity Interlude speakers IL50s, IL 10s and an IL 25c, total cost $1300 shipped. you could get a the AV 505 with 80w a channel for $225 and an emotive AV preamp for $599 so $900 would buy you a system that would kick the crap out of any receiver you could buy even if you spent $2000
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post #18 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurovw89 View Post
I have been looking at the Denon x4000 for the past month. I have found that I can purchase it factory refurbished for almost half.

New
$1,299

Refurbished
$799


Would like to know what everyone's view and experience is with refurbished receivers.


Thanks,
Jeff
You'll want to add in the cost of a 3rd party extended warranty to cover at least the 3 years that purchasing a new in box unit would provide as replacing an HDMI board out of warranty can cost upwards of $400 - $500. Also be sure the 3rd party warranty company is reliable and will provide warranty support if required.

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post #19 of 33 Old 06-13-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Ron - where did you buy them? Thanks. Steve
I purchased them from ecost.com. However, the last time I checked it appeared they long were a dealer for Denon refurb products.

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post #20 of 33 Old 06-14-2014, 09:33 AM
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When I bought from a4l they offered an extended warranty of 5 years for $50. So you can get more if you want it. Just a thought because some of us really have a strict budget and a wife that makes you stand by it.....
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post #21 of 33 Old 06-14-2014, 09:55 PM
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^^
Based on the complaints posted about that particular 3rd party warranty company, I wouldn't hold too much faith in that warranty doing much if actually needed, although based on the reports, you'll at least get your $50 back if something goes wrong.

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post #22 of 33 Old 06-15-2014, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Also be sure the 3rd party warranty company is reliable and will provide warranty support if required.

Square Trade is an excellent company with great reviews and outstanding customer service. They offer great coverage and are super easy to deal with. Just check with them in advance and make sure they offer coverage for units purchased from the retailer you are shopping.
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post #23 of 33 Old 06-15-2014, 11:25 AM
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^^
Agreed. You pay a little more, but can be assured of a good experience should warranty related issues present.

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post #24 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Also be sure the 3rd party warranty company is reliable and will provide warranty support if required.

Square Trade is an excellent company with great reviews and outstanding customer service. They offer great coverage and are super easy to deal with. Just check with them in advance and make sure they offer coverage for units purchased from the retailer you are shopping.
How does getting this or any 3rd party warranty work? What I trying to say, I guess, how do they know its not already messed up, etc...
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post #25 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 12:26 PM
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I'm building a new house with a dedicated theater and I'm buying every major component I can refurbished (including a Denon X4000 from AC4L, just like the OP, just delivered a couple days ago). I've probably bought a dozen components like that over the years and my experience has been completely different than that described above.

Never had a problem with a refub, not once. Invariably, they look and perform like brand new items. Yes, the warranty isn't as long, but with solid state electronics, if it's working right out of the box it's probably fine for the duration. Unlike a new item, refurbs are bench-tested so you know they work when they ship them out to you. Like I said, that's been my experience, and it's saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years and on this project. I only buy new gear if I can't get a refurb.

Now, loudspeakers - that's another story. Those I buy new, never used. You never know if the previous owner might have "ragged them out" even if they look cosmetically perfect.
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post #26 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
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Now, loudspeakers - that's another story. Those I buy new, never used. You never know if the previous owner might have "ragged them out" even if they look cosmetically perfect.
My thoughts regarding purchasing refurb equipment are exactly the opposite. Modern AVR's are so complex and fragile, with problems that may not be apparent in a quick bench test, I go new. Speakers on the other hand, are simple, relatively robust and problems are obvious with a visual inspection and listening demo, I will consider refurb or used on speakers.

Good to see you have been successful in the refurb market.
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurovw89 View Post
How does getting this or any 3rd party warranty work? What I trying to say, I guess, how do they know its not already messed up, etc...

Well, for starters, the receiver will have a manufacturers warranty, usually 1 year instead of 2 or 3, and you would take warranty work up with them inside of the first year. After that time period, you would use the extended warranty company's coverage. Besides, Square Trade has a vendor list that you have to purchase from to qualify for coverage. It is very broad though. Also, the Square Trade warranty has to be purchased within thirty days of purchasing whatever device you want to get coverage for.

So if you get something that "is already messed up", the manufacturer would fix it for the first year (or whatever their coverage is).
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post #28 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
I'm building a new house with a dedicated theater and I'm buying every major component I can refurbished (including a Denon X4000 from AC4L, just like the OP, just delivered a couple days ago). I've probably bought a dozen components like that over the years and my experience has been completely different than that described above.

Never had a problem with a refub, not once. Invariably, they look and perform like brand new items. Yes, the warranty isn't as long, but with solid state electronics, if it's working right out of the box it's probably fine for the duration. Unlike a new item, refurbs are bench-tested so you know they work when they ship them out to you. Like I said, that's been my experience, and it's saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years and on this project. I only buy new gear if I can't get a refurb.

Now, loudspeakers - that's another story. Those I buy new, never used. You never know if the previous owner might have "ragged them out" even if they look cosmetically perfect.
Actually, not always true no, and defective refurbs are few but still happen as the repair facility likely couldn't replicate the issue so it goes out as a refurb. There have been several defective refurb posts in the Denon threads in the past few months.

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post #29 of 33 Old 06-16-2014, 05:11 PM
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I've been buying and selling used audio gear since 1975 and have been a member of audiogon since they first started their website. When Accessories For Less (A4L) and Audiophile Liquidators started up on the web I started picking up refurbished and b-stock gear from them also. I run a small integration business and will often mix new, used, b-stock and c-stock gear into the systems I build for clients to save them money and help subsidize their budget for my labor on custom installs.

I have found that if a piece of electronics is going to go bad, about 70% of the time it occurs in the first 30-90 days and about 20% of the time it occurs within the first year. Manufacturers know this also by tracking the returns and repairs of their products over the years. That's why most offer 90 days labor and 1 year parts warranty because it will capture 90% of defective units coming off the production lines.

It used to be that if the issue was minor, the buyer's unit was usually repaired under warranty at the store where it was purchased or at a local service center. All the large stereo chains of the 70's to the 90's had their own service departments and those that didn't contracted with several local repair facilities. As the internet ramped up, more and more equipment was purchased on line. If it failed the buyer would ship it back to the distributor who would simply replace it with a new unit and RMA the bad unit back to the manufacturer.

Eventually the internet overwhelmed most of the brick and mortar independent audio stores and they closed. All the old stereo chains (except maybe Best Buy or Magnolia) closed along with their service departments (I believe Best Buy and Magnolia ship most of their repairs back to the manufacturer). Many of the local authorized repair facilities have disappeared also. Im my area of Los Angeles I used to have a choice of five or six long established authorized service centers. Now they have all disappeared and the few that are left downsized to much smaller facilities and barely making ends meet.

Most people today buy on the internet. When it breaks they ship it to the manufacturer for a replacement.
The manufacturer will then fix the defect, give the unit a basic QC inspection, and put it out as b-stock usually to liquidators. In addition product cycle times have gotten much shorter. Home theater receivers used to have just Dolby 5.1. Then it was DTS and other codex added in. Today between the HDMI specification changing constantly and new surround formats being added regularly, a home theater receiver introduced in January at CES is practically obsolete by the time everyone's talking about the newer features announced in September at CEDIA. Those units are first discounted to compete then eventually end up at the liquidators to make room for new product.

For example, Anthony Gallo Acoustics is within 15 minutes of my shop. When they changed models from the Strada I to the Strada II they had pallets of the old speakers in the warehouse which were listed on their website as b-stock. I bought several pair for my clients over the last 4 months at the discounted price. Then Gallo offered them through the liquidators and what was left was gone in under 2 weeks.

I have had really good success with b-stock and refurbished equipment both in my own system and those of my clients. If that wasn't the case it would take too much time returning to my client's house to pull out the bad gear, install a loaner, repair the unit and return back to the job site to reinstall the repaired unit.

There are a few exceptions. Sometimes a manufacturer puts out a model that has problems from the beginning and wether you buy it used or new, you're going to have to deal with a repair. A classic example of this are the Onkyo SC5509 series revivers and preamplifiers. The manufacturer let the sealer that used on the mounted IC's to run all over the circuit boards in the HDMI module for most of the production run in China. When they were released, the units had HDMI switching problems from the beginning. Hundreds were RMA'ed back to Onkyo who swapped out a couple IC's (but never cleaned off the boards) before they were resold as B-stock). How do I know this? Because I went through three of these for myself and clients before noticed a thread on AVS with hmany of other people with the same problem. I sent them back to Onkyo for new IC's then had my tech carefully clean off the boards with solvent before reinstalling them. They have all worked flawlessly since then.

Another example would be the first two generations of the Marantz preamp/reveiver redesign with the "porthole" before the AV8801. THe HMDI modules on those give out also within the first two years and need replacing. Obviously Marantz picked up on it and resolved the issue because none of the AV8001 I've installed have malfunctioned.

On balance buying refurbished equipment and used gear saves a hell of a lot of money and lets one accumulate a system that performs way above their budget. Also, now that we have social networking sights like AVS, you can search AVS or google the internet to find out if a particular model that you are considering has any problems. Best of all, when the time comes to upgrade, you put it on audiogon and are not going to loose a lot of money between what you paid and what you sell it for.

Some gear retains almost all it's resale value. I've been buying used Adcom GFA 555II amplifiers since the 1980's. They sold used for $350 - $550 depending upon condition back then, and they sell for $250 - $450 depending upon condition right now 20 years later. I have seven of them in my home theater. I had to put in new power supplies after 10 years for about $200 but that's about it. I could sell them tomorrow for $450 and would have paid about $10 a year for enjoying them. I picked up a used Niles SL1230 12 channel distribution amplifier with only 3 channels working for $40 sent it back to niles for a factory refurbish at $400 and sold it to a client or $800 (which was a steal since a new SL1230 was over $1,200.

On turntables you might even make money. As vinyl has come back the cost of the newer manufactured tables has gotten ridiculous. Prices on vintage gear has shot through the roof. My old Lynn Sondek LP12, Infinity Black Widow Tone Arm and Koetsu cartridge I sold off when CD's came out would cost me the price of a used car to repurchase today. I stepped back into vinyl a few years ago by picking up a used Denon DP60L in great condition or about $350. It wasn't belt drive, the arm wasn't swappable and the tome arm leads were captured so I couldn't do any tweaking but the rosewood base was gorgeous and the table looked really nice in my living room. Then I got one for a friend at $450 off Craigslist, then another for $600 on audiogon, then another through ebay for $850 for a client. Yesterday I saw watched two DP60L's close auction on ebay for $1,120 and $1,250. I should have bought a dozen back when they were $350.

The few times I have had to spend a couple hundred dollars for repairs has been more that offset by the thousands of dollars I've saved buying used and refurbished.

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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
I've been buying and selling used audio gear since 1975 and have been a member of audiogon since they first started their website. When Accessories For Less (A4L) and Audiophile Liquidators started up on the web I started picking up refurbished and b-stock gear from them also. I run a small integration business and will often mix new, used, b-stock and c-stock gear into the systems I build for clients to save them money and help subsidize their budget for my labor on custom installs.

I have found that if a piece of electronics is going to go bad, about 70% of the time it occurs in the first 30-90 days and about 20% of the time it occurs within the first year. Manufacturers know this also by tracking the returns and repairs of their products over the years. That's why most offer 90 days labor and 1 year parts warranty because it will capture 90% of defective units coming off the production lines.

It used to be that if the issue was minor, the buyer's unit was usually repaired under warranty at the store where it was purchased or at a local service center. All the large stereo chains of the 70's to the 90's had their own service departments and those that didn't contracted with several local repair facilities. As the internet ramped up, more and more equipment was purchased on line. If it failed the buyer would ship it back to the distributor who would simply replace it with a new unit and RMA the bad unit back to the manufacturer.

Eventually the internet overwhelmed most of the brick and mortar independent audio stores and they closed. All the old stereo chains (except maybe Best Buy or Magnolia) closed along with their service departments (I believe Best Buy and Magnolia ship most of their repairs back to the manufacturer). Many of the local authorized repair facilities have disappeared also. Im my area of Los Angeles I used to have a choice of five or six long established authorized service centers. Now they have all disappeared and the few that are left downsized to much smaller facilities and barely making ends meet.

Most people today buy on the internet. When it breaks they ship it to the manufacturer for a replacement.
The manufacturer will then fix the defect, give the unit a basic QC inspection, and put it out as b-stock usually to liquidators. In addition product cycle times have gotten much shorter. Home theater receivers used to have just Dolby 5.1. Then it was DTS and other codex added in. Today between the HDMI specification changing constantly and new surround formats being added regularly, a home theater receiver introduced in January at CES is practically obsolete by the time everyone's talking about the newer features announced in September at CEDIA. Those units are first discounted to compete then eventually end up at the liquidators to make room for new product.

For example, Anthony Gallo Acoustics is within 15 minutes of my shop. When they changed models from the Strada I to the Strada II they had pallets of the old speakers in the warehouse which were listed on their website as b-stock. I bought several pair for my clients over the last 4 months at the discounted price. Then Gallo offered them through the liquidators and what was left was gone in under 2 weeks.

I have had really good success with b-stock and refurbished equipment both in my own system and those of my clients. If that wasn't the case it would take too much time returning to my client's house to pull out the bad gear, install a loaner, repair the unit and return back to the job site to reinstall the repaired unit.

There are a few exceptions. Sometimes a manufacturer puts out a model that has problems from the beginning and wether you buy it used or new, you're going to have to deal with a repair. A classic example of this are the Onkyo SC5509 series revivers and preamplifiers. The manufacturer let the sealer that used on the mounted IC's to run all over the circuit boards in the HDMI module for most of the production run in China. When they were released, the units had HDMI switching problems from the beginning. Hundreds were RMA'ed back to Onkyo who swapped out a couple IC's (but never cleaned off the boards) before they were resold as B-stock). How do I know this? Because I went through three of these for myself and clients before noticed a thread on AVS with hmany of other people with the same problem. I sent them back to Onkyo for new IC's then had my tech carefully clean off the boards with solvent before reinstalling them. They have all worked flawlessly since then.

Another example would be the first two generations of the Marantz preamp/reveiver redesign with the "porthole" before the AV8801. THe HMDI modules on those give out also within the first two years and need replacing. Obviously Marantz picked up on it and resolved the issue because none of the AV8001 I've installed have malfunctioned.

On balance buying refurbished equipment and used gear saves a hell of a lot of money and lets one accumulate a system that performs way above their budget. Also, now that we have social networking sights like AVS, you can search AVS or google the internet to find out if a particular model that you are considering has any problems. Best of all, when the time comes to upgrade, you put it on audiogon and are not going to loose a lot of money between what you paid and what you sell it for.

Some gear retains almost all it's resale value. I've been buying used Adcom GFA 555II amplifiers since the 1980's. They sold used for $350 - $550 depending upon condition back then, and they sell for $250 - $450 depending upon condition right now 20 years later. I have seven of them in my home theater. I had to put in new power supplies after 10 years for about $200 but that's about it. I could sell them tomorrow for $450 and would have paid about $10 a year for enjoying them. I picked up a used Niles SL1230 12 channel distribution amplifier with only 3 channels working for $40 sent it back to niles for a factory refurbish at $400 and sold it to a client or $800 (which was a steal since a new SL1230 was over $1,200.

On turntables you might even make money. As vinyl has come back the cost of the newer manufactured tables has gotten ridiculous. Prices on vintage gear has shot through the roof. My old Lynn Sondek LP12, Infinity Black Widow Tone Arm and Koetsu cartridge I sold off when CD's came out would cost me the price of a used car to repurchase today. I stepped back into vinyl a few years ago by picking up a used Denon DP60L in great condition or about $350. It wasn't belt drive, the arm wasn't swappable and the tome arm leads were captured so I couldn't do any tweaking but the rosewood base was gorgeous and the table looked really nice in my living room. Then I got one for a friend at $450 off Craigslist, then another for $600 on audiogon, then another through ebay for $850 for a client. Yesterday I saw watched two DP60L's close auction on ebay for $1,120 and $1,250. I should have bought a dozen back when they were $350.

The few times I have had to spend a couple hundred dollars for repairs has been more that offset by the thousands of dollars I've saved buying used and refurbished.

PeterC613,
Wow....thank you for all of that. That has definitely pointed me towards AC4L.
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