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post #1 of 14 Old 06-13-2014, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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"new 4 ohm certification" receivers?

I called Denon today as I had a question about my aging 3801...

During that discussion I asked about 4 ohm rated AVRs and he said that very soon Denon will be releasing 4 ohm certified units. I think he said both the S and X series will offer such...

Here is the S series:

http://usa.denon.com/us/news/pages/N...=115&Year=2014

What other receivers have been certified for such, let's say for less than $2,000?
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post #2 of 14 Old 06-13-2014, 11:34 PM
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http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...mand-receivers
http://www.cinenow.fr/articles/28834...z-le-programme
x2100, x3100, x4100, x5200 soon.

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post #3 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 01:13 AM
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All of the new 2014 Denon models starting with the S700W and higher and all of the 2014 Marantz models will have a 4/6 ohm current limiting setting, although just as is the case with other brands/models have this setting, you are better served leaving the setting at the 6 ohm setting in order to provide more power. Your higher priced models, eg. Denon 4520CI are actually designed for 4-ohm speakers and have a robust enough power supply to power 4-ohm speakers to reference level volumes.

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post #4 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 08:22 AM
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We need to understand more clearly the meaning of Certified 4 Ohms...
Denon needs to clarify this, Does it mean that now their AVRs will have more power into 4 Ohms @ low THD?
Or is it simply a marketing term that limits the power supply voltage as done by the competition for the last 10 years..

Just my $0.05...
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post #5 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We need to understand more clearly the meaning of Certified 4 Ohms...
Denon needs to clarify this, Does it mean that now their AVRs will have more power into 4 Ohms @ low THD?
Or is it simply a marketing term that limits the power supply voltage as done by the competition for the last 10 years..

Just my $0.05...
If you actually HAVE 4 ohm speakers (as MOST speakers really are now), you will possibly get more power to the speakers at that setting because the available peak current should be greater. There are very few speakers that are REALLY 8 ohms; most are less than 6 ohms over much of the frequency range. Deceptive labeling is common.

On the other hand, AVRs from NAD and Cambridge Audio have always engineered their receivers with heftier power supplies and much better drive current capability than the competition, while Yamaha and and others seem to go for peak power rating into an 8 ohm resistor load and don't do well when driving real speakers, ending up with high distortion at peaks.

In other words, NAD and Cambridge engineer for the real world, driving real speakers and keeping distortion low. The competition seems to care only about the rather misleading 8 ohm "power" numbers they can put on a spec sheet, not real performance or low real-world distortion.

Those who use the ears they were given and listen to the amplifiers and/or receivers will find which sounds better. Those who wish to buy according to spec sheets will end up being the gullible victims of the companies that play that game.

It would be nice if Yamaha and Pioneer and Onkyo would start engineering their products better, but they have a long history of shoddy engineering, and I will be shocked if it changes much. But hey; if someone thinks they can buy an AVR that is anything but cheap junk for $400 or $500 or so, that is just silly; let the buyer beware.

I bought a Yamaha 125-watt integrated amplifier for $800 in 1980 (equal to $2000 or more today), and when I got it home it would go into oscillation when driving my low-impedance speakers (it would emulate an air-raid siren). It was a piece of crap. It even said not to use any speaker lower than 8 ohms in the manual. For that price?? What crap.

I replaced it with a $200 NAD 3020, which sounded very much better and drove my Polk RTA12 speakers as loud as you could want.

Just another example of Yamaha's great engineering over the years
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post #6 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 09:05 AM
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[quote=commsysman;24962833]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
If you actually HAVE 4 ohm speakers (as MOST speakers really are now), you will possibly get more power to the speakers at that setting because the available peak current should be greater. There are very few speakers that are REALLY 8 ohms; most are less than 6 ohms over much of the frequency range. Deceptive labeling is common.
It should be common knowledge that most speakers will dip below their rated ohms throughout the bandwidth. It's not really deceptive labeling. When the speaker is idle, when tested, it registers 8ohms.

The same could be said for a 4 ohm speaker. I've seen 4 ohm speakers dip to 1 ohm during playback; should they be accused of deceptive labeling as well?

That being said; it's not only about the ohm load, but also about how tough the speaker is to drive as well. Low efficiency high ohm speakers can be just as hard to drive as a low ohm high efficiency speaker. I've driven many 4 ohm speakers off receiver power (stated 8ohm only load receivers) at reference levels with no issues. I'm sure there are others that have 8 ohm speakers with poor efficiency speakers that have wreaked havoc on their receivers. JMTC.
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post #7 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We need to understand more clearly the meaning of Certified 4 Ohms...
Denon needs to clarify this, Does it mean that now their AVRs will have more power into 4 Ohms @ low THD?
Or is it simply a marketing term that limits the power supply voltage as done by the competition for the last 10 years..

Just my $0.05...
If you actually HAVE 4 ohm speakers (as MOST speakers really are now), you will possibly get more power to the speakers at that setting because the available peak current should be greater. There are very few speakers that are REALLY 8 ohms; most are less than 6 ohms over much of the frequency range. Deceptive labeling is common.

On the other hand, AVRs from NAD and Cambridge Audio have always engineered their receivers with heftier power supplies and much better drive current capability than the competition, while Yamaha and and others seem to go for peak power rating into an 8 ohm resistor load and don't do well when driving real speakers, ending up with high distortion at peaks.

In other words, NAD and Cambridge engineer for the real world, driving real speakers and keeping distortion low. The competition seems to care only about the rather misleading 8 ohm "power" numbers they can put on a spec sheet, not real performance or low real-world distortion.

Those who use the ears they were given and listen to the amplifiers and/or receivers will find which sounds better. Those who wish to buy according to spec sheets will end up being the gullible victims of the companies that play that game.

It would be nice if Yamaha and Pioneer and Onkyo would start engineering their products better, but they have a long history of shoddy engineering, and I will be shocked if it changes much. But hey; if someone thinks they can buy an AVR that is anything but cheap junk for $400 or $500 or so, that is just silly; let the buyer beware.

I bought a Yamaha 125-watt integrated amplifier for $800 in 1980 (equal to $2000 or more today), and when I got it home it would go into oscillation when driving my low-impedance speakers (it would emulate an air-raid siren). It was a piece of crap. It even said not to use any speaker lower than 8 ohms in the manual. For that price?? What crap.

I replaced it with a $200 NAD 3020, which sounded very much better and drove my Polk RTA12 speakers as loud as you could want.

Just another example of Yamaha's great engineering over the years
When talking loudspeakers and 4 Ohms, the real issues are sensitivity and the amplifier's ability to drive a reactive load. A loudspeaker's 4 Ohm reactive load is significantly different than a 4 Ohm resistive load, also type of enclosure sealed, ported makes a difference. As I have posted many times, the present day AVRs are built for a price point and their published power output specifications are created by the sales/marketing team. Regardless of their actual engineering design parameters.... Also keep in mind that 80% of the home theater systems today are using a subwoofer/satellite system so its amplifier stage doesn't require any low frequency capability < 200Hz..

I will let U in on a real event in this business that happened a couple of years back.. Since we do product development/design/sourcing for certain AVR brands we know very well how the system works. We had a couple of new AVRs under development, 1 had a power spec of 50W x 7 @ 0.1% THD and another @ 75W x 7 @ o.1% THD into 8 Ohms. These models were previewed to a major retailer (> 250 stores) by the brand's sales manager. As I was in the product development team, brochures and advertised power specs were created in the marketing/sales department. A couple of months later, both AVRs were shipped out and I was reviewing one of the retailer's ads... 1 AVR was speced @ 70W x 7 and the other AVR @ 100W x 7...

I was greatly suprised by their increased power output specs so I asked the sales/marketing manager where/how these came about... He told me the specs were created by the merchandise buyer @ the retailer as to be competitive with the other AVR brands.. Note that retailer sold > 150K of both AVRs and even today there are frequent mention of both models on AVS. So U can see power output specs in many instances are simply pullled out of the wind and have little or no relevance to the real world..


Just my $0.05...
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post #8 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 11:16 AM
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Just buy a quality power amplifier and you never have to worry about it.

https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-5
http://www.classicaudioparts.com/ind...tock-120v.html

Bought a 2003 myself

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #9 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I don't have as a default setting to get email alerts for thread starts... Thanks for all the valuable input everyone.

M Code said it early on... We need some form of a definition, a clear one, as to what the heck Denon means by "new 4 ohm certification".

In shopping for, selecting or using a speaker of choice, the last thing I'd like to have to be concerned about is the impedance. I decided to use some JBL Control 1 Pros (2 pairs) for surround duty, and then quickly realized (remembered) they are 4 ohm speakers. In a surround capacity, as I was recently informed, they won't get taxed in the same fashion as the main speakers, but when playing music they would though. My 3801 was definitely getting warmer than usual on 5 channel stereo, I assume because of having to drive the 4 ohm Control 1's... Between that and no modern HDMI ports, simply relegating the 3801 to the guest room gets harder to rationalize...

Geez, for like 500 bucks, less than half what I paid for the 3801, I'm somewhat surprised...

If anyone gets an answer from Denon on what they've done differently for this "new"certification, please do share. I doubt I'll have time to call next week, at least early on...

Last edited by TonyB1966; 06-14-2014 at 04:29 PM.
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post #10 of 14 Old 06-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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again once you start to go into low sensitivity / impedance look into dedicated power even a budget amp will outclass a av amp

http://www.rotel.com/UK/products/Pro...76&Tab=1&Pic=1
That's only £800

or this £1300
http://www.rotel.com/UK/products/Pro...11&Tab=1&Pic=1

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #11 of 14 Old 06-16-2014, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Had time to ring Denon over my lunch break and all that I could get is that there will be switch where one can select 4 ohm. When I asked about what denotes "certification" and what was done differently with the design and circuitry, I was told that the specs will be in the manual, and that should address such questions. They use the term "certification" and one would think they'd be willing if not required to share what that means... A non-fruitful call.
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post #12 of 14 Old 06-16-2014, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
Had time to ring Denon over my lunch break and all that I could get is that there will be switch where one can select 4 ohm. When I asked about what denotes "certification" and what was done differently with the design and circuitry, I was told that the specs will be in the manual, and that should address such questions. They use the term "certification" and one would think they'd be willing if not required to share what that means... A non-fruitful call.

Thanks for the effort..
Sounds like a smoke & mirror explanation.
Denon needs to clarify what Certification means...
Certified by Denon? Certified by the FTC? Certified by Lab X?
Very simple, to disclose What is the power, THD and bandwidth into 4 Ohms..
Next compare this to their 8 Ohm disclosure...
We await further clarification by Denon...

Just my $0.05..
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post #13 of 14 Old 06-16-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The response sucked. Maybe it's just a matter of getting a different representative? As much as I've liked my Denon over the years, I refuse to buy one of these new units until they are able to explain this "certification". If anyone feels so inclined, do share what you learn, hopefully more than I did...
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post #14 of 14 Old 06-16-2014, 10:25 PM
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Receivers(amps) will always be taxed more during multi-channel music mode. The volume clearly jumps when switching from 2 channel to 5 channel stereo. Pretty much the bigger the power supply, the better a receiver will handle 4 ohm speakers. Most of my best speakers are 4 ohm. I only buy receivers with some preouts. A little pricey on denon models.

So denon has had an ohm swith on the 4311 and 4520, but not the lower models. Many other brands have offered that switch in a somewhat hidden menu for years. This is what happens when you add that switch. Half the new buyers think they need to throw that switch and limit the available power. Experts everywhere recommend operating most receivers at the highest ohm setting(full power) unless the receiver does get very hot or go into protection. Audioholics has a good article about that ohm setting.

In summary don't buy the new denons because they are adding an ohm switch. Now hdmi 2 is a good reason. Otherwise 2013 models are a better deal. Unless they actually redesigned their amps. Doubt it.
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