AVR or Speakers important?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Exclamation AVR or Speakers important??

Hi all...am new here and this is my first post. Now that i am planning a mini home theatre set-up(in my living room itself; not a dedicate room), research led me to this forum. And this forum is the best thing that has happened to "sound" after discovering sound itself .
Am planning a 65inch UHDTV + AVR + 5.1(or 7.1) speakers. Read a lot about various stuff here already and have quite an idea on what i want. But today i read something about speakers being more important than the amp and that threw me off completely as i always thought it was the other way around Trying to get a different perspective now. Can you please help??
I am planning on a Samsung 65 inch UHD for TV(no projector as my room's not too big. i'll keep that for my dedicated home theater). I was planning on buying a package for 2299 which included Denon AVR + Klipsch RF 42 pair + RB 41 pair + RC 42 + SW 110 for $2200. But today i happend to visit a Klipsch showroom and listened to RF 82 set and it was mind blowing(so was the price) and the salesman told me never buy a RF42 as it really not much sound at all and i am not doing justice to the amp. With all this, i am totally lost
My budget is 2000 - 2400 bucks(all in, incl the wires, connectors etc excluding the TV) can someone help me assemble a decent system at that price point? I really loved Denon 4000 + RF 82 5.1...but that is costing me 3500+ without the wires. So all in, i am looking at 4k which i really dont want to spend as of now. Looking forward for some direction here :-)
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post #2 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 02:23 AM
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Speakers are important. However if your amp isn't that great you're not getting the full potential of your speakers.

Also Klipsch are horns. What may sound good for a 20 minute demo, you may not like for several hours at a time.

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post #3 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 02:53 AM
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Speakers will have the most effect in what you hear, electronics come next. Find some speakers you like, and if you are going to listen to music also test with that. Movies can hide things that music can not.
The system you're thinking about sounds like decent value, but I would go to another dealer than the one that showed you the Klipsch 82. I don't trust that salesman's attitude. Speaking as someone who used sell electronics. See and hear the stuff at multiple dealers, find one who will work with you and give you honest advice, they exist.
Samsung UHD TV nice choice!

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post #4 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:00 AM
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The speaker/room interface makes 99% of what you hear. Electronics are a negligible part of the equation these days.

The problem is that virtually no one has the ability to assess speakers and room acoustics properly, although it is easier and cheaper than ever. There are numerous books on the topic and measuring software is available for free, e.g. http://www.roomeqwizard.com

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post #5 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:13 AM
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If you think source and amp results in 1% difference...must mean you have budget gear and telling yourself there is no difference between budget and high end gear. Or you have 99% hearing loss.

Those RF 82 are £1000 and have vinyl wrap??? I'd expect real wood for that.

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post #6 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:37 AM
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If you think source and amp results in 1% difference...must mean you have budget gear and telling yourself there is no difference between budget and high end gear. Or you have 99% hearing loss.
Do some ABX testing yourself and you'll come to the same conclusion.

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post #7 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:52 AM
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I have. Amps sound different. Upgrading from Yamaha AVR to stereo integrated amp did a lot

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #8 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:09 AM
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I have. Amps sound different. Upgrading from Yamaha AVR to stereo integrated amp did a lot
Is your test setup and procedure documented somewhere?

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post #9 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:17 AM
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I have compared these brands extensively.

Audiolab
Arcam
Yamaha

Even in power amplifiers there was a difference between Audiolab & Arcam, and they have similar power ratings.

Then others
Rega
Roksan
Rotel
NAD
ATI

Did you have a thorough documentation when you went for a test driving, comparing a Honda Civic and Corvette Z06? Or was it just your opinion one had superior handling to the other, and there biased. Both cars have four wheels, an engine, suspension and a gearbox. Thus exactly the same.

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post #10 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
I have compared these brands extensively.

Audiolab
Arcam
Yamaha

Even in power amplifiers there was a difference between Audiolab & Arcam, and they have similar power ratings.

Then others
Rega
Roksan
Rotel
NAD
ATI

Did you have a thorough documentation when you went for a test driving, comparing a Honda Civic and Corvette Z06? Or was it just your opinion one had superior handling to the other, and there biased. Both cars have four wheels, an engine, suspension and a gearbox. Thus exactly the same.
Doesn't sound like you did the kind of test I was talking about. I just don't think that any listening test that has not been done ABX blind is of much value. It definitely doesn't allow to draw any objective conclusions about the sound quality of a device.

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post #11 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:35 AM
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OP, the speakers are everything. Receiver, not so much.
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post #12 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:37 AM
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I really don't care what kind of requirement you think I should do, to make me choose (or not) an amplifier. If you heard the Roksan Kandy K1, it is totally different to Arcam Alpha sound.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

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post #13 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
I really don't care what kind of requirement you think I should do, to make me choose (or not) an amplifier. If you heard the Roksan Kandy K1, it is totally different to Arcam Alpha sound.
Obviously you don't value the scientific method much. Very peculiar for someone posting on the AV Science forum.

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post #14 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 05:02 AM
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And you're obviously one of the FMW crowd following people who has kidded themselves all amps sound the same.

What amps do you have, and have you ever had several amps from a few brands?

If you think that Roksan Kandy K1 sounds the same as a "laid back" type amp, you must be deaf. It was horrid, really really harsh. I thought the Audiolabs were forward..

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post #15 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 05:26 AM
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OP, the speakers are everything. Receiver, not so much.

I agree. It's too bad that this thread is already taking a turn far from the OP's intention .


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post #16 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
And you're obviously one of the FMW crowd following people who has kidded themselves all amps sound the same.

What amps do you have, and have you ever had several amps from a few brands?

If you think that Roksan Kandy K1 sounds the same as a "laid back" type amp, you must be deaf. It was horrid, really really harsh. I thought the Audiolabs were forward..
Wrong thread fatbottom.

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post #17 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 05:44 AM
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There have been many tests done showing people could not tell amps apart (under various conditions.) If you look at bench tests of receivers, the THD+N levels when the receiver was not overdriven are quite low. Their frequency response is flat. These basic observations lead me to conclude I would be wasting my time to worry about the sound of amps and receivers unless they were poorly designed and executed.

Obviously if the amp/receiver distorts due to overdriving it, it will sound bad. That's true of all amps (though some feel tube amps distort more pleasantly, perhaps why guitar amps sometimes use them.)

As you can see if you read these posts, opinions differ on the audibility of the difference in amps. I have read countless articles and multiple books and I can say the evidence is on the side of amps sounding more alike than different unless they were not well designed. Most receivers seem to do an adequate job, at least the ones I have seen bench tested.

Speakers, on the other hand, are an exercise in compromises. Cost, size, frequency response, power handling, crossover design, etc. Estimates have been made that the audio distortion of speakers is sufficiently high to be audible (sort of a blanket statement, accept it as such.) It seems wiser to focus on the weakest link in the speaker-amp chain. And most experts seem to agree that's speakers. Perhaps, once you have a system you like with speakers you like, in the future you could consider different amps,

Also, room acoustics have an effect as well. You might be surprised to find out how much they effect the lower frequencies. I have seen 10 dB swings in SPL during a low frequency sweep. I think that's worse than speakers - there's ways to mitigate that for people serious about accurate sound.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #18 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 05:46 AM
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Goldenear ss3 x 5=$1250

Svs sb1000 subwoofer=$500

Marantz SR5008 7.2 Network Home Theater A/V Receiver from accessories4less.com=$549

That brings you in at $2349

Hope this helps.
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post #19 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 06:42 AM
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Just think about it logically.

Speakers are what you hear so a large chunk of your of your budget should go there.

If you get easy to drive speakers (and most of the commercially available ones usually recommended here are) then choice of AVRs will depend on what features you like and or need.

If you have a situation "outside of the norm" like a very large room or you say happen to score a NOS set of Apogee Scintillas or get into DIY speaker building, then you should start to look at more powerful amplification to drive your speakers than what an AVR can possibly provide.
The goal is to avoid clipping and your desired volume level with the speakers given.
there are calculators available to help you guess at what that would be, but if something sounds "harsh" at loud levels, then you are running out of gas.
(and you should turn it down a bit before the cops arrive!)

The other stuff like cables, etc are like dressings on a salad. Pick what you like and can afford.

While picking components can be fun, once you get everything set, just enjoy it and try not to visit the forums too much or you will just drive yourself crazy trying to fix an issue that in reality might not even be there.

Good luck!
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post #20 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks a lot of some of the reply guys ...some of you were really helpful in getting some direction. And i am surprised to see where all this discussion turned to!!
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post #21 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic debauchery View Post
Goldenear ss3 x 5=$1250

Svs sb1000 subwoofer=$500

Marantz SR5008 7.2 Network Home Theater A/V Receiver from accessories4less.com=$549

That brings you in at $2349

Hope this helps.
thanks bro...let me check out Goldenear. never heard of this brand before. Accessories4less is amazing!! its much cheaper than amazon!! Is it ok to buy a factory refurbished? asking coz i've never bought it before.
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post #22 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Just think about it logically.

Speakers are what you hear so a large chunk of your of your budget should go there.

If you get easy to drive speakers (and most of the commercially available ones usually recommended here are) then choice of AVRs will depend on what features you like and or need.

If you have a situation "outside of the norm" like a very large room or you say happen to score a NOS set of Apogee Scintillas or get into DIY speaker building, then you should start to look at more powerful amplification to drive your speakers than what an AVR can possibly provide.
The goal is to avoid clipping and your desired volume level with the speakers given.
there are calculators available to help you guess at what that would be, but if something sounds "harsh" at loud levels, then you are running out of gas.
(and you should turn it down a bit before the cops arrive!)

The other stuff like cables, etc are like dressings on a salad. Pick what you like and can afford.

While picking components can be fun, once you get everything set, just enjoy it and try not to visit the forums too much or you will just drive yourself crazy trying to fix an issue that in reality might not even be there.

Good luck!
thanks :-)....i have a normal sized room. So am going to focus on getting better speakers and maybe a 5-600$ amp....
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post #23 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nithinmuktesh83 View Post
thanks bro...let me check out Goldenear. never heard of this brand before. Accessories4less is amazing!! its much cheaper than amazon!! Is it ok to buy a factory refurbished? asking coz i've never bought it before.
Most factory refurb's come with a warranty, you should be fine. I've bought factory refurb's without problems.

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post #24 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nithinmuktesh83 View Post
thanks bro...let me check out Goldenear. never heard of this brand before. Accessories4less is amazing!! its much cheaper than amazon!! Is it ok to buy a factory refurbished? asking coz i've never bought it before.
Definitely OK to buy factory refurbished. I have a Denon 3808ci that is fac Tory refurbished that has been going strong since 2008. You can get extended warranties for piece of mind. Where you might run into a snag is when you go to sell it down the road. You would have to divuldge it was refurbished.
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post #25 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 02:31 AM
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I personally wouldn't buy a refurb AVR. Too complex.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #26 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 03:32 AM
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fwiw, buying referbs. are just as good as new. electronics are the most returned items.they also become "electronic outdated" as fast as they are sold it seems, from TV's washers and dryers ,toasters, blenders etc. including avr's . I have purchased a few brand new onkyo avr's that I had to return for hdmi problems and also my dad had a problem with his new avr. I also have a denon avr 791 that I purchased from accessories4less over 3 years ago and its never given me one problem. I also own a referb Harman kardon avr 354 that has been problem free for over 4 years. just my 2 cents. by the way speakers and room and speaker placement are more important for sound than whats powering them.although a good source of power is impotant. as said above as long as there is enough power to push your speakers to the volumes that you listen to them without any distortion, it doesn't matter of name brand or cost just what options you need like hdmi in/out puts or type of room correction they might have, 2 room capability, networking.etc.
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i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #27 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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2 RF-82II Towers 1 RC-62 II Center 2 RS-52II Surrounds(Black Only) BIC Acoustech PL-200 x 2 Each(Black Only) Denon AVR-X4000 IN-Command 7.2 Network Home Theater Receiver - this package cost $3399.00. if i push the budgets - is this worth it?

I loved Marantz SR5008 which sonic suggested and trying to assemble a package like this. will come up with best cost soon. Meanwhile - please advice is above package is worth for a living room theatre
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post #28 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
I really don't care what kind of requirement you think I should do, to make me choose (or not) an amplifier. If you heard the Roksan Kandy K1, it is totally different to Arcam Alpha sound.

Totally. Apparently one works well and the other one doesn't.
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