Pioneer SC LX88 - 9.2 ch, Dolby Amos, HDMI 2.0 - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I sometimes think the future of this hobby is the HTPC - so many potential benefits of going that route. I shy away from it personally because I can see it easily becoming a hobby in itself and the last thing I need is another hobby. Especially one connected with computers.
I think the future is cloud-based audio processing. You basically have the amplifier at home and pay somebody else to do the heavy-lifting in a hardware/software/updating sense.
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post #332 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
I think the future is cloud-based audio processing. You basically have the amplifier at home and pay somebody else to do the heavy-lifting in a hardware/software/updating sense.
No. While streaming content is definitely the future, that content has to be decoded and tailored to the playback system at the receiving end.

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post #333 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No. While streaming content is definitely the future, that content has to be decoded and tailored to the playback system at the receiving end.
No. Content stream delivered with respect to user-defined/user-input parameters. Done all the time now in other contexts.
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post #334 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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No. Content stream delivered with respect to user defined/user input parameters. Done all the time now in other contexts.
Yes but those streams have to be decoded on the receiving end anyway.
Can you give examples for "user defined/user input parameters"?

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post #335 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
It's the harmony ultimate, so the hand unit is RF and the Hub it communicates with is in shot of my tech rack, it's on the other side of my room's internal wall so I can feed another blaster from the hub back in for controlling the TV and projector
Ah right - thanks. I am using the Harmony 1100 which is a mix of IR and Wireless, when used with the wireless extender, which is located in the gear closet. IR for the gear in the HT (eg the PJ) and wireless for the gear in the closet. We're getting OT...
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post #336 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
If you have to have the latest and greatest, this may be the most cost effective solution in the long run.

But I agree, not family friendly at all.
Fine for us geeks, but that is it.
I love the idea but I just don't want to get sucked into another hobby. I only started this one (AV gear) because I wanted to get the best possible SQ and PQ for my movies. My hobby is movies really not AV, although it's hard to know which occupies more of time.
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post #337 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
And I wonder how any room correction system would measure distance for those "pseudo-height" speakers on top of the towers? Completely lost here! Time to ask the officials.
Why would it be any different than any other speaker? if the Atmos modules are pinged separately, then Audyssey will hear the sound that reaches the mic, and measure EQ accordingly.

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post #338 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Why would it be any different than any other speaker? if the Atmos modules are pinged separately, then Audyssey will hear the sound that reaches the mic, and measure EQ accordingly.
Which sound is Audyssey (or MCACC) supposed to hear to determine distance, the up-firing one from top of the tower or the reflected one from the ceiling?
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post #339 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Yes but those streams have to be decoded on the receiving end anyway.
Can you give examples for "user defined/user input parameters"?
Atmos, DTS, Audyssey per se are all just done by running computer programs. That can be done in the cloud. The "last-step" transduction of a "fully-processed" digital stream into voltages (DAC-type stuff) would be left for the home. That is, the cloud would deliver such a standardized-form stream which is the result of all that other processing and you would do the rest. Of course, the content of the stream would depend on your set up (speaker distances, etc.). But the necessary parameters are easy enough to provide. Your cable-box transducer would have the speaker-terminals/pre-outs on the back and a microphone jack on the front. You hook up the mic as now, test tones are sent to your box (and to your speakers), info is sent back to the cloud and a set of processing parameters is created as now. Then you request a movie, the processing is done in the cloud, a standardized stream is sent to your box, it is turned by your box into voltages which run your speakers.

The idea here is that there is no need to have all these consumers continually buying new hardware and software for on-site processing. Indeed, the underlying economics of that model seems to be driving many companies out of the AVR business all together.

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post #340 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Which sound is Audyssey (or MCACC) supposed to hear to determine distance, the up-firing one from top of the tower or the reflected one from the ceiling?
if you read the info being on several sites, it looks like there's 2 separate connections:

1 to the normal drivers as fronts, surrounds, or rears
1 to the top firing concentric driver as overhead/height

sounds like the top firing driver will be the one connected to the height terminals so...they will be measure separately.

this is based on info being published on several sites not the manual which isn't available yet but sounds like Pioneer's got it covered

Steve
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post #341 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
if you read the info being on several sites, it looks like there's 2 separate connections:

1 to the normal drivers as fronts, surrounds, or rears
1 to the top firing concentric driver as overhead/height

sounds like the top firing driver will be the one connected to the height terminals so...they will be measure separately.

this is based on info being published on several sites not the manual which isn't available yet but sounds like Pioneer's got it covered
Yeah, that's OK. I'm interested in connections with "top firing concentric driver as overhead/height" and the way they are measured separately. The school so far was that for best results speakers should face MLP, some even used laser protractors to get it cosmically right! But now we have a top-firing speaker setup that does not comply with the mentioned school. Are we entering a new school? Curious like cat!
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post #342 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 02:51 PM
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Based upon the diagram I viewed I would suspect the room correction software would be geared toward the reflected.
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post #343 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BIG INJUN CHIEF View Post
Based upon the diagram I viewed I would suspect the room correction software would be geared toward the reflected.
How is that implemented? Care to expand a bit? Thx.
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post #344 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 04:31 PM
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Hdcp 2.2?

Which Pioneer AVRs will offer HDCP 2.2 support?

I'm just a caveman. Your modern world frightens and confuses me.
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post #345 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 09:35 PM
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How could you do a real-time application like audio processing in a cloud based manner, especially for gaming, where 50 millisecond lags are a deal breaker? I would think network latency would make it unacceptable.
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post #346 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 10:11 PM
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How could you do a real-time application like audio processing in a cloud based manner, especially for gaming, where 50 millisecond lags are a deal breaker? I would think network latency would make it unacceptable.
I was talking about streaming a movie. In any case, the basic information-age vector is DCC: Digitize (the processes), Converge (the processes to one platform), (migrate the processing from the convergence platform to the) Cloud.
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post #347 of 432 Old 06-26-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post
Atmos, DTS, Audyssey per se are all just done by running computer programs. That can be done in the cloud. The "last-step" transduction of a "fully-processed" digital stream into voltages (DAC-type stuff) would be left for the home. That is, the cloud would deliver such a standardized-form stream which is the result of all that other processing and you would do the rest. Of course, the content of the stream would depend on your set up (speaker distances, etc.). But the necessary parameters are easy enough to provide. Your cable-box transducer would have the speaker-terminals/pre-outs on the back and a microphone jack on the front. You hook up the mic as now, test tones are sent to your box (and to your speakers), info is sent back to the cloud and a set of processing parameters is created as now. Then you request a movie, the processing is done in the cloud, a standardized stream is sent to your box, it is turned by your box into voltages which run your speakers.

The idea here is that there is no need to have all these consumers continually buying new hardware and software for on-site processing. Indeed, the underlying economics of that model seems to be driving many companies out of the AVR business all together.
So you're basically talking about a scenario where there's is only one player (a streaming box) and room correction is done in the cloud. It could be done but I doubt that the content would be "personalized" before it is streamed. The personalization (downmix to a specific number of available channels, delay, level, EQ filter) would probably still happen at the receiving end.

Markus

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post #348 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
I was trying to post the technical paper here on AVS, however it is too big (26MB).. I will see if I can get it posted on our website in the morning.

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Did this paper go online yet?

Markus

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post #349 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Which sound is Audyssey (or MCACC) supposed to hear to determine distance, the up-firing one from top of the tower or the reflected one from the ceiling?
As the Atmos module is directly on top of the regular speaker, the distance is likely to be the same as for that speaker, so there is no requirement to measure the distance of the Atmos module. If the Atmos module is pinged individually, and we have no idea if this is so at this time, then Audyssey/MCACC will EQ the reflected sound presumably. The whole point is that it is only the reflected sound which is heard and not the direct sound, obviously. The module drivers and their recessed position have been specifically designed to that end.

Why is this so important to you at this time? Are you questioning that the electrical and acoustic engineers at Pioneer, Dolby and Audyssey won't have figured out how to deal with this?

I suggest you do some more reading in order to learn more about the technology you are trying to comment on. This post is a good start. Before you start arguing with AndrewJ, you might want to discover who he is, if you don't know.
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post #350 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BIG INJUN CHIEF View Post
Based upon the diagram I viewed I would suspect the room correction software would be geared toward the reflected.
It is pretty obvious that it is only the reflected sound that is heard by the listener and not the direct sound. That is the whole point of the module's design, as you suggest. It's easy to get drawn into pointless discussions sometimes - soon we will have all the information we need (and probably more than we need LOL).

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post #351 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Yeah, that's OK. I'm interested in connections with "top firing concentric driver as overhead/height" and the way they are measured separately. The school so far was that for best results speakers should face MLP, some even used laser protractors to get it cosmically right! But now we have a top-firing speaker setup that does not comply with the mentioned school. Are we entering a new school? Curious like cat!
Well, boundary firing speakers are as old as sound reproduction itself. So that's not "a new school".

Nevertheless equalizing the top firing speakers isn't a trivial task. Lower frequencies that radiate in a more omnipolar manner will arrive at the listening position first. After that a spectrally different reflection will arrive. So sound from those speakers arrive at the ear twice.

The sound will be localized at the ceiling if the reflection is strong enough. You can try that yourself: Put your speakers on the floor and have the tweeter pointing at the ceiling somewhere between speaker and listening position. Depending on the directionality of your speakers you'll localize high frequency sounds at the ceiling or somewhere between floor and ceiling.

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post #352 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Yeah, that's OK. I'm interested in connections with "top firing concentric driver as overhead/height" and the way they are measured separately. The school so far was that for best results speakers should face MLP, some even used laser protractors to get it cosmically right! But now we have a top-firing speaker setup that does not comply with the mentioned school. Are we entering a new school? Curious like cat!
Have you not realised yet that the Atmos-enabled speakers are a revolutionary new concept in speaker design, designed to achieve one specific objective? Instead of asking here, why not just go and look at the published information?
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post #353 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Well, boundary firing speakers are as old as sound reproduction itself. So that's not "a new school".

Nevertheless equalizing the top firing speakers isn't a trivial task. Lower frequencies that radiate in a more omnipolar manner will arrive at the listening position first. After that a spectrally different reflection will arrive. So sound from those speakers arrive at the ear twice.

The sound will be localized at the ceiling if the reflection is strong enough. You can try that yourself: Put your speakers on the floor and have the tweeter pointing at the ceiling somewhere between speaker and listening position. Depending on the directionality of your speakers you'll localize high frequency sounds at the ceiling or somewhere between floor and ceiling.
Not according to the person who designed the Pioneer Atmos speaker modules. It is nothing even vaguely like taking a conventional speaker and lying it on its back.
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post #354 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 06:18 AM
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I would also like to know if Pioneer would support DTS UHD as that looks like everything we wanted Atmos to be ie adapt to users speaker location vice predetermined location.

Kbarnes, investigate!
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post #355 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 06:20 AM
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I am all for new technologies that are supposed to improve our HT experience as much as the next guy, but the important thing to me is how room correction works with Atmos - or not. It's great to read the enthusastic posts of Keith, Sanjay and others about Atmos. What concerns me is how forgiving will Atmos be with your room? My HT room is less then perfect for where I can place speakers, etc. Running ceiling speakers are not an option (way too expensive to drill through floor joists, cut and paste sheet rock - not, and my wife would never allow speaker wire even in some type of paintable "conduit" run along the ceiling.

The great thing about Audyssey was the ability for it to take room issues and help correct them. The same can be said about MCACC. So am I the only one that is concerned that Atmos will dumb down the room correction? Like Markus there is no way I am replacing my speakers - spent thousands earlier this year upgrading them (5 total). What will these speaker top units look like - black boxes on top of my nice looking bamboo speakers? Is Pioneer the only company making the module which has been talked about, but no details on those, only on their new speakers with built in driver on top.

I was ready to jump on a new Elite this year for the D3 amps, their approach to phase control, no dumb down on high res when running MCACC and sub eq being added (2 channels to boot). It would be great to know how room correction is going to work with Atmos - Audyssey or MCACC. How forgiving is Atmos with speaker placement and room issues? I would also like to know more about the other features/functions of our new Elites this year - like 3D time axis measurement and precision distance - see below. Again, are these features only used under certain situations?

Pioneer MCACC® Pro Room Calibration
• Full Band Phase Control
• Auto Phase Control Plus/Phase Control Plus
• Standing Wave Control
• 3D Time Axis Measurement
• Precision Distance
• Polarity Check
• Automatic Crossover Detection
• Reverb Before and After Calibration Results (AVNavigator for
iPad®)
• Subwoofer EQ (4 Band)
• Independent Dual Subwoofer Output

Still a lot of information lacking for those of us who can not set up the perfect HT and have no interest in buying new speakers - even if Mr. Jones has developed them. I also find it interesting no other speaker maker seems to be even talking about making speakers that are Atmos ready or adding modules like Pioneer claims to be doing that will convert your current speakers into Atmos ready. Am I the only one wondering about all of this? Is Atmos only for certain type of movie - thinking action? I don't see much of an advantage when watching the Royal Tenenbaums - Transformers yes. Ramble over, maybe I am suffering from Atmos hype, just need to read more then press releases and its great posts.
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post #356 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cischico View Post
I would also like to know if Pioneer would support DTS UHD as that looks like everything we wanted Atmos to be ie adapt to users speaker location vice predetermined location.

Kbarnes, investigate!
I'm not Keith but sure, when DTS finishes it and DSP chip mfgs implement the code, why would they not? along with everyone else.

most indications I've read or scuttlebutt is that DTS implementation is at least a yr away so 2015 models

a good question is whether it will need new chips or could be done via FW update & that is an unknown.

Steve

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Let's get this straight. Those reflecting speakers are nothing more than a compromise if someone can't install speakers where they should be installed, namely the ceiling. It's inferior to installing speakers where they belong.
It's also not new technology or revolutionary but a way to move an auditory event to a location that is different than the speaker location. HRTF processing would be another solution but that would not require the consumer to buy new or additional speakers

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post #358 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
1) So am I the only one that is concerned that Atmos will dumb down the room correction? 2) Like Markus there is no way I am replacing my speakers - spent thousands earlier this year upgrading them (5 total). 3) What will these speaker top units look like ? 4) Is Pioneer the only company making the module which has been talked about, but no details on those, only on their new speakers with built in driver on top.
1) Well, I'm not worried in the least That would be the least of my concerns implementing Atmos.

Why would it dumb down room EQ? each speaker will still get a correction & calibration, including the height component, ceiling mounted or reflecting. If you are worried about EQ'ing reflected sound, I've been doing it since the 80's with dipolar Magnepans and it works just fine. I've used an Audio Control C101 analog graphic EQ with the dancing LED's back then It came with a pro level mic, and measured to pink noise so you could adjust to get a "flat" response. Magnepan's didn't throw it.

Then used Pioneer's MCACC with 3 different Magnepan models since 2003. It's calibrating/EQing a combined sound to the mic, not direct vs reflected. My Maggies have always been calibrated to the fraction of an inch to their actual physical distance to the mic, even the wall mounted, reflecting planars as surrounds. It's pretty damn accurate. There are quite a few Pioneer owners who've used Magnepans, Martin-Logan, DefTech's & other speakers that have reflecting characteristics. If you follow your concern to its logical conclusion 1) it wouldn't work with any DefTech's, or any bipolar/dipolar surround speaker which is the most prevalent surround design by ALL speaker mfg's. Logically, the height part of Atmos, whether direct (ceiling mounted) or reflected, is not much different from a bipolar/dipolar situation. And Audyssey/MCACC, YPAO, Trinnov all work with those.

2. Understood, I'm in same situation. But I have no qualms about adding Pioneer's speakers for the Atmos height component or somebody's module. I'd set them on stands along the wall near where my Maggie surround panels are. I'll do that or bite the bullet for ceiling mounted.

3. Photos are already out there for Onkyo's modules on their web site. And add-on modules have already been announced by DefTech on an announcement site, it's called the A60 and will fit on top of their bipolar towers. So you have 2 sources already announced, with photos.

4. Pioneer so far has only announced the full speakers, not the add-on modules. I don't know if they will have modules or not. But again, if you read what's been published by the press, the top driver looks like an independent connection to the height terminals so I think could be used as modules. I've already posted the link to the press site that said this. I think it was digitaltrends.com

Hope this helps with a bit of your angst.

These companies will have done their homework to make sure their respective room EQ systems all work well. There's too much for their & Dolby's reputation for them not to. Don't you think Audyssey wouldn't have had the opportunity to evaluate how this would sound with their system? If it didn't work well, that would reflect on them, too
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Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 06-27-2014 at 07:04 AM.
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post #359 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 07:07 AM
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^ thanks for the info Steve. There still seems like a lot of posts with speculation on the AVS - including a number of members proclaiming the death of bipole or dipole speakers
Always wonder why some enjoy seeing products and companies go away - fewer options do not make for better options.

P.S. I am very excited about the SC-89 even if it didn't have Atmos. Atmos for me is a bonus and some additional cost
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post #360 of 432 Old 06-27-2014, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Did this paper go online yet?

Hopefully this link will work until I can get it posted on our website..

https://www.hightail.com/download/ZU...YStQb0xWUThUQw

Thanks,

Chris
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