Onkyo all channel driven? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Onkyo all channel driven?

I just rewired my room, and now have my TX-NR515 pushing 7.1 all Monitor Audio RX speakers (RX8 fronts, RX Center, RX6 sides, RX FX rears).
Down the road I'd like to get a more powerful AVR, or something with pre-outs and an external amp.

Any guesses on how many watts per channel the Onkyo puts out when all channel driven?
I can't find any real info for all channels.
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post #2 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 01:49 PM
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It can't be higher than 68W per channel.

480W / 7

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #3 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoey View Post
I just rewired my room, and now have my TX-NR515 pushing 7.1 all Monitor Audio RX speakers (RX8 fronts, RX Center, RX6 sides, RX FX rears).
Down the road I'd like to get a more powerful AVR, or something with pre-outs and an external amp.

Any guesses on how many watts per channel the Onkyo puts out when all channel driven?
I can't find any real info for all channels.
Short of a benchtest, it would be impossible to say. If you look at other bench tests of similar priced receivers I suspect it would be under 40 watts per channel. It's likely not too important. Have you noticed symptoms that it's running out of power? How loud do you play movies and music at?

You need twice the power for a 3 dB gain in SPL, so it may not be a concern. 3 dB is not a big difference in SPL. If you are always running out of power, maybe it makes sense to go with more power.

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post #4 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Short of a benchtest, it would be impossible to say. If you look at other bench tests of similar priced receivers I suspect it would be under 40 watts per channel. It's likely not too important. Have you noticed symptoms that it's running out of power? How loud do you play movies and music at?

You need twice the power for a 3 dB gain in SPL, so it may not be a concern. 3 dB is not a big difference in SPL. If you are always running out of power, maybe it makes sense to go with more power.
I've just switched to the 7.1 so I haven't spent a lot of time on it. Ran the audyssey setup and that's about it.
Listened to with the volume up to about 45 (I don't know what dB) and things sounds fine. no noticeable issues.

I do tend to listen loud, but this setup is in the living room so I can't get crazy. The plan is to move everything to the garage and get cranking... that's when I figure I'll switch to another AVR with pre's&power amp.
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post #5 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:30 PM
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If you mainly need high volume to "rock out" (or whatever you do in a garage,) you might consider in the future a pro audio amplifier. I bought a 300x2 watts into 8 ohm Crown amp for under $400 (of course you need preouts, or speaker to line level conversion.)

That's pretty affordable two channel power for music. It can probably power speakers for live use in a bar/small club, so you can imagine it can get to ear damaging levels ( please look after your hearing though!)

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post #6 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
If you mainly need high volume to "rock out" (or whatever you do in a garage,) you might consider in the future a pro audio amplifier. I bought a 300x2 watts into 8 ohm Crown amp for under $400 (of course you need preouts, or speaker to line level conversion.)

That's pretty affordable two channel power for music. It can probably power speakers for live use in a bar/small club, so you can imagine it can get to ear damaging levels ( please look after your hearing though!)
I'm not looking for ear shattering levels. I use primarily just front L/R for music. I do enjoy nearing reference level for movies, but that's not really ideal at the moment.
I've been eyeballing the Emotiva amps when I'm ready to hear volume (and CLARITY) taken to the next level.
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post #7 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
If you mainly need high volume to "rock out" (or whatever you do in a garage,) you might consider in the future a pro audio amplifier. I bought a 300x2 watts into 8 ohm Crown amp for under $400 (of course you need preouts, or speaker to line level conversion.)

That's pretty affordable two channel power for music. It can probably power speakers for live use in a bar/small club, so you can imagine it can get to ear damaging levels ( please look after your hearing though!)
I'm not looking for ear shattering levels. I use primarily just front L/R for music. I do enjoy nearing reference level for movies, but that's not really ideal at the moment.
I've been eyeballing the Emotiva amps when I'm ready to hear volume (and CLARITY) taken to the next level.
At 3 dB below reference you need half the power required for reference. Surrounds are never as loud as 3 db below the mains so they don't need 1/4 the power of the mains with real content played back 3 dB below reference afaik. . For many of us power never becomes an issue.
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post #8 of 28 Old 06-16-2014, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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At 3 dB below reference you need half the power required for reference. Surrounds are never as loud as 3 db below the mains so they don't need 1/4 the power of the mains with real content played back 3 dB below reference afaik. . For many of us power never becomes an issue.[/QUOTE]

Great to know. Thanks for the info!
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post #9 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
At 3 dB below reference you need half the power required for reference. Surrounds are never as loud as 3 db below the mains so they don't need 1/4 the power of the mains with real content played back 3 dB below reference afaik. . For many of us power never becomes an issue.
That's why I have long said that chasing reference level isn't an important goal. If by accepting 3 dB to 6 dB less than reference level SPL, you can probably save a chunk of money due to large difference in needed amp power. It also carries through to the power needed for the subwoofer, and maybe even the speakers ( as some speakers may not work well when trying to hit reference level peaks.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #10 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
That's why I have long said that chasing reference level isn't an important goal. If by accepting 3 dB to 6 dB less than reference level SPL, you can probably save a chunk of money due to large difference in needed amp power. It also carries through to the power needed for the subwoofer, and maybe even the speakers ( as some speakers may not work well when trying to hit reference level peaks.)

To say nothing of the fact that reference level is deafeningly loud. I don't go to movie theaters anymore because I don't like wearing ear plugs.
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post #11 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoey View Post
I just rewired my room, and now have my TX-NR515 pushing 7.1 all Monitor Audio RX speakers (RX8 fronts, RX Center, RX6 sides, RX FX rears).
Down the road I'd like to get a more powerful AVR, or something with pre-outs and an external amp.

Any guesses on how many watts per channel the Onkyo puts out when all channel driven?
I can't find any real info for all channels.
EZ to calculate..
Onkyo published specs (FTC) are 80W x 2, 20Hz-20kHz, <0.7% THD into 8 Ohms.
For 7 channels driven, take 160W and divide by 7 equals 23W per channel.
For 5 channels driven, take 160W and divide by 5 equals 32W per channel.

Next question..


Just my $0.05...
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post #12 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
EZ to calculate..
Onkyo published specs (FTC) are 80W x 2, 20Hz-20kHz, <0.7% THD into 8 Ohms.
For 7 channels driven, take 160W and divide by 7 equals 23W per channel.
For 5 channels driven, take 160W and divide by 5 equals 32W per channel.

Next question..


Just my $0.05...
I have never seen third party bench tests consistent w this calculation. .
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post #13 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 04:37 PM
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Pretty simple math...
The AVR's power supply has the capability of driving 160 watts total (stereo mode) AC line 120V, the rest is how many channels are being driven.. Since the power supply is common to all channels its total VA capacity is the limiting factor for power output. The power output spec may vary up to 5% due to other internal circuits/factors but this will put U in the ball park.. Especially pertinent if the brand only chooses to provide only the higher 2 channel numbers...

Just my $0.05...
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post #14 of 28 Old 06-17-2014, 08:40 PM
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There's also amp efficiency.

Then there's power factor, which is likely not one without a regulated line. Which means you might not get rated power anyway.

The last time I bought a receiver, I bought the cheapest Yamaha model with pre outs. That made the decision easy. If I had not cared about having pre outs, I probably would have skipped the 300 and 400 series as budget models, and looked at the 500, 600 and 700 series and decided based on price and power spec, being willing to jump up $100 for the one with the better power supply.

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post #15 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Pretty simple math...
The AVR's power supply has the capability of driving 160 watts total (stereo mode) AC line 120V, the rest is how many channels are being driven.. Since the power supply is common to all channels its total VA capacity is the limiting factor for power output. The power output spec may vary up to 5% due to other internal circuits/factors but this will put U in the ball park.. Especially pertinent if the brand only chooses to provide only the higher 2 channel number
Just my $0.05...
while it is widely known that typical receivers cannot supply two-channel rated power to all channels because of power supply limitations, that does not mean that their power supplies are limited to being able to supply only the full power for two channels. A seven channel 100 watt per channel receiver would need a power supply that could support 700 watts to hit full power on all channels simultaneously. But we know they can't, most likely. But in my grade school matha classes, 600, 500 and 400 were less than 700.

If facts are relevant to your thinking, take a gander at the testing for the Denon 4520 at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench.

it is rated at 150 WPC, two channels driven, and so in your calculations, you'd expect to see 300/7 or just about 48 watts per channel at 7 channels driven. But that's not what happens. at one percent distortion, it tested out to provide

190.7 two channels driven, for a total of 381.4 watts
145.3 five channels driven for a total of 726.5 watt
121.7 into seven channels for a total of 851.9 watts.

Here's an Onkyo, the Onkyo TX-NR828 (again one percent THD, at 0.1 percent the numbers are lower but the trend is the same. Rated at 130 WPC, two channels driven.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench

172.1 watts two channels driven, 344.2 total
125.5 watts five channels driven 627.5 total
96.8 watts, seven channels driven, 677 total

Power supply isn't the only thing that limits output. Otherwise we would not need output stages, you could just hook up the power supply to the op amps in the preamp section and let them rip. But in the real world you need output transistors, which have their own operating envelopes, to supply the power. That other amplification device, the tube, is more familiar to me. No matter what I put into the power supply, I cannot get more than about 20 watts out of a pair of 6V6 output tubes (okay, 30 with the JJ, but it's kind of a super-6V6). If I want 60 watts, I can use four 6V6s instead of 2, or I can use a pair of 6L6s. But I won't get a hundred watts out of either of those setups. Would need, in typical use, four 6L6Gcs to get around a hundred musical instrument watts (no rules, but probably around 5 percent THD for all those output ratings in real amps. I Own a 6L6 amp that's rated at "only" 45 watts . . . because of how the tube is used in the circuit, which in part is defined by (or for the designer, defines) the power supply.

from the real world test numbers it is clear that neither the output devices' limits nor the power supply's capability by themselves define total power that will be available driving multiple channels simultaneously

PS looking at the soundandvision testing for a Yamaha or two and a Sony, they seemed to be limited much more nearly like your assumption, which frankly surprised me. Long time since I was researching power numbers for a receiver purchase and I guess the better performing (from a pure power perspective) ones that I focused on are what stuck in what's left of my brain. SO there are indeed some units that look like your assumption would predict, and others that don't. OF course once you get into standalone power amps, nobody's (well almost nobody's) all channel driven numbers are below the two channel rating, because they have the power supply and the heat dissipation ability to do it "right."

Last edited by JHAz; 06-18-2014 at 09:16 AM.
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post #16 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 11:28 AM
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The variables I know of -
* Line voltage and power factor ( if it's not regulated/power factor corrected you will get variations)
* Amp efficiency ( Not sure on typical class B, AB amps, but possibly as bad as 50%)
* Power supply regulation ( Transformer VA doesn't seem to tell the whole story)
* Smoothing capacitors ( If a benchtest does a short enough test, the caps might give you some very short term power boost before they start draining and the voltage drops)
* Limiter circuitry ( I know almost nothing about this, but looking at benchtests it seems such things exist - you can see sharp bends in the THD vs power curves which look like limiters kicking in)

Seems to me there's sufficient variables that you can't figure out from VA alone how much power per channel you will get. Nor has it ever been totally clear to the general AV hobbiest how many channels are peaking at once, and to what extent the power supply can hold the proper voltage. It's been said many times by supposed experts that you don't expect all channels to peak at the same time but the parameters are unclear.

It would be nice to have a standardized set of test files taken from actual movies and music to test real world behavior of receivers, especially budget receivers. THX used some burst testing method and I don't know how that worked, but that was always for higher end THX certified receivers.

It's maybe true that the reputable brands have similar performance with their budget models using 400 VA transformers or thereabouts. I would love to see someone capture the signal at the output terminal, and with a typical budge setup turn up the volume until it clips on some loud scene in a modern action movie to see how much power it could put out.

One could take wild guesses about budget receivers. If for example, you could only rely on 32 to 64 watts of peak power per channel, with 90 dB speakers, and say your sound was down 6 dB at your listening position. I guess you could maybe hit 100 dB SPL peaks in that case. That would be pretty good IMO for a budget receiver. If I was off by 6 dB, you could hit 94 dB peaks. That would allow for 74 dB SPL dialog ( with a 20 dB swing from dialog to peaks.) That would probably be acceptable to many people.

It makes sense to avoid inefficient speakers if at all possible with lower end receivers. A person could also use volume compression capabilities of some receivers to reduce the dynamics and that might help with lower power systems ( a guess.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #17 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
while it is widely known that typical receivers cannot supply two-channel rated power to all channels because of power supply limitations, that does not mean that their power supplies are limited to being able to supply only the full power for two channels. A seven channel 100 watt per channel receiver would need a power supply that could support 700 watts to hit full power on all channels simultaneously. But we know they can't, most likely. But in my grade school matha classes, 600, 500 and 400 were less than 700.

If facts are relevant to your thinking, take a gander at the testing for the Denon 4520 at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench.

it is rated at 150 WPC, two channels driven, and so in your calculations, you'd expect to see 300/7 or just about 48 watts per channel at 7 channels driven. But that's not what happens. at one percent distortion, it tested out to provide

190.7 two channels driven, for a total of 381.4 watts
145.3 five channels driven for a total of 726.5 watt
121.7 into seven channels for a total of 851.9 watts.

Here's an Onkyo, the Onkyo TX-NR828 (again one percent THD, at 0.1 percent the numbers are lower but the trend is the same. Rated at 130 WPC, two channels driven.

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench

172.1 watts two channels driven, 344.2 total
125.5 watts five channels driven 627.5 total
96.8 watts, seven channels driven, 677 total

Power supply isn't the only thing that limits output. Otherwise we would not need output stages, you could just hook up the power supply to the op amps in the preamp section and let them rip. But in the real world you need output transistors, which have their own operating envelopes, to supply the power. That other amplification device, the tube, is more familiar to me. No matter what I put into the power supply, I cannot get more than about 20 watts out of a pair of 6V6 output tubes (okay, 30 with the JJ, but it's kind of a super-6V6). If I want 60 watts, I can use four 6V6s instead of 2, or I can use a pair of 6L6s. But I won't get a hundred watts out of either of those setups. Would need, in typical use, four 6L6Gcs to get around a hundred musical instrument watts (no rules, but probably around 5 percent THD for all those output ratings in real amps. I Own a 6L6 amp that's rated at "only" 45 watts . . . because of how the tube is used in the circuit, which in part is defined by (or for the designer, defines) the power supply.

from the real world test numbers it is clear that neither the output devices' limits nor the power supply's capability by themselves define total power that will be available driving multiple channels simultaneously

PS looking at the soundandvision testing for a Yamaha or two and a Sony, they seemed to be limited much more nearly like your assumption, which frankly surprised me. Long time since I was researching power numbers for a receiver purchase and I guess the better performing (from a pure power perspective) ones that I focused on are what stuck in what's left of my brain. SO there are indeed some units that look like your assumption would predict, and others that don't. OF course once you get into standalone power amps, nobody's (well almost nobody's) all channel driven numbers are below the two channel rating, because they have the power supply and the heat dissipation ability to do it "right."
Keep in mind...
The original post was about the Onkyo 515 which is an entry level AVR. An entry level AVR is built for the lowest price and will have limited power output...
A higher, stepup AVR such as the Denon is 7x the cost of the 515, and higher end AVRs have better grade components and a more robust power supply which delivers more VA that means higher power output. Additionally a higher end AVR is speced more conservatively while an entry level AVR is over-hyped... Plus the 515 weighs 19 LBs vs. 42 LBs of the 4520.

I have a legacy Marantz amplifier that is rated @ 250W x 2 yet measures 400W x 2 so one can easily see/hear the differences. Regarding tube amplifiers power output is a different subject as this design requires an output transformer, whereas a solid state has a higher output capability.. Also component power amplifiers usually have significant overdesign so that their power output specs are usually quite conservative..

The thing to remember is when comparing Class AB amplifiers...
Is power in & and power out, one can conclude its power output capability by its AC power consumption wattage an dthe difference is given off in heat... Assuming a linear power supply is about 50-60% efficient.. This will all change in the future as we move into the Green Phase by having more Class D solutions and SMPS power supplies which are significantly more efficient....

Just my $0.05...

Last edited by M Code; 06-18-2014 at 04:04 PM.
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post #18 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 04:20 PM
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Not holding my breath for when SMPS and Class D become standard in AVRs. I know Pioneer has done class D for years, so there are more efficient options.

What puzzles me is why the manufacturers are not jumping on the class D wagon. As class D has the ability to significantly reduce weight due to efficiencies (smaller transformers, smaller heat sinks) which should reduce shipping costs at least, I would think adoption would have happened by now. I don't know if the class D amp stage costs too much, or the big boys are just slow adopters ( not uncommon in corporations which are not known for their swift and accurate decision making.)

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post #19 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Not holding my breath for when SMPS and Class D become standard in AVRs. I know Pioneer has done class D for years, so there are more efficient options.

What puzzles me is why the manufacturers are not jumping on the class D wagon. As class D has the ability to significantly reduce weight due to efficiencies (smaller transformers, smaller heat sinks) which should reduce shipping costs at least, I would think adoption would have happened by now. I don't know if the class D amp stage costs too much, or the big boys are just slow adopters ( not uncommon in corporations which are not known for their swift and accurate decision making.)
U are correct..
Class D amplifier solutions and SMPS power supplys have been slow to catch up in AVRs..
Though Panasonic sold >300K of their Class D AVRs designed by TI, HK sold 100K of their Class D AVRs w/THX certification, Pioneer/Elite have been using Class D solutions for the last 4 generations and HK has been using SMPS power supplies for the last 2 generations. Class D and SMPSs' are already the norm in the majority of other CE categories including subwoofers, all-1-HT systems, sound bars...

Due to the Green Movement, the higher efficiency solutions of Class D and SMPS will drive the market in the future... Just like the changeover in displays to LCDs, and incandescent bulbs to LED, OE car audio.... They provide more power, smaller footprint and decreased costs..

IMHO...
The biggest setback was that early on they were over hyped, and simply didn't sound good sonically.. However the latest solutions are sonically close to perfection, but it is difficult to prove this point in the current marketplace of internet sellers, Best Buys and Walmarts... The market is pushing for more watts, lower costs, more HDMI ins/outs...

Just my $0.05...
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post #20 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Keep in mind...
The original post was about the Onkyo 515 which is an entry level AVR. An entry level AVR is built for the lowest price and will have limited power output...
A higher, stepup AVR such as the Denon is 7x the cost of the 515, and higher end AVRs have better grade components and a more robust power supply which delivers more VA that means higher power output. Additionally a higher end AVR is speced more conservatively while an entry level AVR is over-hyped... Plus the 515 weighs 19 LBs vs. 42 LBs of the 4520.

I have a legacy Marantz amplifier that is rated @ 250W x 2 yet measures 400W x 2 so one can easily see/hear the differences. Regarding tube amplifiers power output is a different subject as this design requires an output transformer, whereas a solid state has a higher output capability.. Also component power amplifiers usually have significant overdesign so that their power output specs are usually quite conservative..

The thing to remember is when comparing Class AB amplifiers...
Is power in & and power out, one can conclude its power output capability by its AC power consumption wattage an dthe difference is given off in heat... Assuming a linear power supply is about 50-60% efficient.. This will all change in the future as we move into the Green Phase by having more Class D solutions and SMPS power supplies which are significantly more efficient....

Just my $0.05...
Well I will take your word that you meant your statement to be limited in some unstated way. I still don't recall any Denon or Onk testing like that. Certainly the current $600 msrp denon puts out multiples of it's two channel rating in bench tests driving multiple channels fwiw.
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post #21 of 28 Old 06-18-2014, 09:52 PM
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There is no black magic...
A linear power supply has a max current/voltage capacity if it is already maxed out driving 2 channels how does the power supply increase its current/voltage capacity when driving more channels.. Some power output differences are possible if the power supply is designed with independent secondaries such as implemented in certain HK AVRs which has a single power supply for the L/R/C and another single power supply for the LS/RS/BLS/BRS..

We have been design team leader for AVRs sold by Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Kenwood, HK & Yamaha so we do have some insight/experience into this subject..

Just my $0.05...
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post #22 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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OP here with an update here.
Upgraded my tx-nr515 to the tx-nr3009.
Using pre-outs with an emotiva UPA-700 so I'm seeing 80w per ch.
I'll probably experiment and add front heights just for "fun" and the the receiver power just the heights, or just the rears (and put the front heights on the UPA-700).

Eventually I'd consider getting more power to my front L/C/R mains (Emotiva XPA-3?) but this is a solid start!

Thanks all for the input!
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post #23 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Pretty simple math...
The AVR's power supply has the capability of driving 160 watts total (stereo mode) AC line 120V, the rest is how many channels are being driven.. Since the power supply is common to all channels its total VA capacity is the limiting factor for power output. The power output spec may vary up to 5% due to other internal circuits/factors but this will put U in the ball park.. Especially pertinent if the brand only chooses to provide only the higher 2 channel numbers...

Just my $0.05...
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
There is no black magic...
A linear power supply has a max current/voltage capacity if it is already maxed out driving 2 channels how does the power supply increase its current/voltage capacity when driving more channels.. Some power output differences are possible if the power supply is designed with independent secondaries such as implemented in certain HK AVRs which has a single power supply for the L/R/C and another single power supply for the LS/RS/BLS/BRS..

We have been design team leader for AVRs sold by Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Kenwood, HK & Yamaha so we do have some insight/experience into this subject..

Just my $0.05...
\

"if it is already maxed out . . ." the operative word being"if." It's not always. Your initial equation assumes it ALWAYS is, and IMO, it's a disservice to those who don't want to peruse thousands of posts to get to reality to suggest it is.

BTW, if your experience is only with systems designed to only have enough power supply to support 2 channels at full power, my expectation is that you're mostly working at the relatively low end. God bless you. IMO, the hardest engineering is to get the maximum overall performance with the most constricted resources. IOW, it's WAY harder, IMO to engineer a (relatively, within the price category) better-performing cheap device than an average performing (within the price category) more expensive device.

But it remains indisputable that there are plenty of devices, even relatively inexpensive devices, in the wild that are not constrained by a power supply that is maxed out at 2 times the 2-channel per-channel power rating, and for those devices, the calculation you posted and that I questioned is simply wrong. We all know the power supply constrains total power in all channels driven conditions for most AV receivers, but what the constraint is differs from device to device. And to know what you have, as a consumer, you need third party testing, because the manufacturers' published numbers are about marketing . . . .
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\

But it remains indisputable that there are plenty of devices, even relatively inexpensive devices, in the wild that are not constrained by a power supply that is maxed out at 2 times the 2-channel per-channel power rating, and for those devices, the calculation you posted and that I questioned is simply wrong. We all know the power supply constrains total power in all channels driven conditions for most AV receivers, but what the constraint is differs from device to device. And to know what you have, as a consumer, you need third party testing, because the manufacturers' published numbers are about marketing . . . .
Rather than debate back and forth, lets back up the talk..
Please provide a substantiated test report of an AVR that sells for < $599 that delivers more total output power when being driven in all channels. So that the sum of all channels exceeds the sum of its published 2 channel power output specification..

Just my $0.05...
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post #25 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Rather than debate back and forth, lets back up the talk..
Please provide a substantiated test report of an AVR that sells for < $599 that delivers more total output power when being driven in all channels. So that the sum of all channels exceeds the sum of its published 2 channel power output specification..

Just my $0.05...
No problem. I have a gig tonight do it will be tomorrow unless you have the wherewithal to go to the same site I slreafy referenced snd scroll down a few receiver reviews. I csn see how that might br way too much. .

Not that it matters analytically assuming you can do logic.
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post #26 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 04:21 PM
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No problem. I have a gig tonight do it will be tomorrow unless you have the wherewithal to go to the same site I slreafy referenced snd scroll down a few receiver reviews. I csn see how that might br way too much. .

Not that it matters analytically assuming you can do logic.
Do it when U have time...
Be sure that when comparing power in the respective multichannel mode, that is run under the same conditions (frequency, THD, load) as the reference (2) channel driven FTC 8 Ohms full bandwith specifications..

Just my $0.05...
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post #27 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 11:13 PM
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Do it when U have time...
Be sure that when comparing power in the respective multichannel mode, that is run under the same conditions (frequency, THD, load) as the reference (2) channel driven FTC 8 Ohms full bandwith specifications..

Just my $0.05...
here you go. http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...00-av-receiver

rated at 90 wpc, it makes a bit over 60 wpc into seven channel, so aomething over 420 total watts. but the real point is we are no longer talking about whether your formula is correct, but about at what price point it might become correct. perhaps the distinction is entirely beyond you. but it would have been massively easy to say "many receivers have power supplies limited to 2 times the rated power," a statement with which I likely would have had exactly zero difference and would have made no comment. It's the absolutism of your formula that makes it screamingly incorrect, which was my only point. but i thought you were bright enough to see that immediately. obviously I was wrong.
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post #28 of 28 Old 06-19-2014, 11:59 PM
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Again U are going too fast..
Read my post closely..
I said under FTC conditions and @ full bandwidth..

"Be sure that when comparing power in the respective multichannel mode, that is run under the same conditions (frequency, THD, load) as the reference (2) channel driven FTC 8 Ohms full bandwith specifications.."

The posted example from Sound & Vision was done @ a single frequency (1kHz)..
Full bandwidth means 20Hz-20kHz...
Taking power measurements only @ a single frequency such as 1kHz is not pushing the amplifier and/or its power supply.. Driving multiple channels @ full bandwidth down to 20Hz will quickly validate my original premise..

Keep looking and post back when U find an AVR test report that supports your comments...

Just my $0.05...
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