The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 101 - AVS Forum
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post #3001 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I think you (keith) and I come across with different takes on a lot of things. But we still both seem to want the best audio experience possible and I think that's what matters the most.
@ last, @ mos.

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post #3002 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:03 PM
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Hi Kris,

This is good news because I like Secrets and the people there.

By the way, I notice that under your name (username) on the left, where it says;
Location: The Pacific
Northwet


Where is that?
I live on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington. I always call the Washington/Oregon area the Pacific Northwet instead of Northwest because of the rain.

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Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity


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post #3003 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:13 PM
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Oh, lol, I see now.

* I live near Seattle, on Vancouver Island, Victoria's neighborhood, where Jazz rains.

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post #3004 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I live on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington. I always call the Washington/Oregon area the Pacific Northwet instead of Northwest because of the rain.
I love it! I could not take this, lived there for two years and bailed out to sunny pastures, I am solar powered

My humble Cinema
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post #3005 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
Hey, has anyone seen this article?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-secret-bluray/


This would be awesome if true. And the beauty from what I understand is, it won't have to be in a preset 5.1.4, 7.1.2, etc. The processor knows the room and speakers, and delivers the best it can with what it has, real time encoding for YOUR setup. So I wonder what kind of microphone array the Atmos receivers will have for room calibration?
You still have to have a layout that is close to their various recommended speaker/sub placement charts... up to 34. Even cinema Atmos renderers are not that sophisticated. We'll know more once Dolby releases their white paper on the at-home Atmos format.

Again, it would be nice if true about stealth Atmos discs already in the wild. But then the studio brass would have to be a lot smarter than they appear to be.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #3006 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
The author uses the recent re-release of How To Train Your Dragon, which replaces the original 5.1 track with a TrueHD 7.1 track, to suggest a stealth Atmos release. "Why would the studio bother to do this?" He conveniently leaves out that the previous track was also TrueHD (so it's not like the studio switched form DTS-HA MA to TrueHD) and that the TrueHD 7.1 track had already been released with the 3D version a few years ago (so it's not like the studio had to create a brand new mix, they already had it in 2011).

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post #3007 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
'The Hobbit' Trilogy --> DTS-UHD 7.1.4 ??
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Not very likely.
LOTR Trilogy EE ??

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post #3008 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
TLOTR Trilogy EE ??
It depends on if Warner Brothers is waiting on DTS-UHD to release object surround tracks. If Dolby has a big announcement and there are no WB discs listed, then one can start speculating if perhaps they've been in talks with DTS instead.

I think it will also depend on how much Peter Jackson and Co. want to spice up the Lord of the Rings for any subsequent video re-releases and if they have to do any upgrades out of pocket or if Warner Brothers would spring for an audio overhaul and other upgrades

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #3009 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Remember, don't think in those terms (7.1.4). It's more like Dolby Atmos 34 output surround.
I know, you're right. ...Dolby TrueHD 7.1 surround, with Atmos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
If the Trinnov speaker layout schematic is accurate for their Altitude32 processor, it's possibly breaking down as:

Front: 5 screen speakers (Left/Left Center/Center/Right Center/Right)
Left wall: 5 speaker array
Right wall: 5 speaker array
Rear wall: 5 speaker array
Overheads: 10 speaker array (in left and right pairs)

Two subwoofer outputs
Another two bass management derived outputs

A miniature version of the their cinema layout??
...Or expand our home theater rooms? ...No more walls when you come back from work.

Or! Back to drive-in theaters?

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post #3010 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That's fair. Just because I think they're doing a good job doesn't mean there aren't equally effective or more effective ways to have done it. I think that's one of the better aspects of this launch: lots of buzz amongst enthusiasts, lots of questions waiting to be answered, lots of speculation building up, all without Dolby having issued an official announcement. Like having manufacturers warm up the audience before doing a press conference.
That's why forums like AVS exist, and with all of us a joyous Atmos bunch.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #3011 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
Hey, has anyone seen this article?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-secret-bluray/


This would be awesome if true. And the beauty from what I understand is, it won't have to be in a preset 5.1.4, 7.1.2, etc. The processor knows the room and speakers, and delivers the best it can with what it has, real time encoding for YOUR setup. So I wonder what kind of microphone array the Atmos receivers will have for room calibration?
Ha!

My BD 3D of 'How to Train your Dragon' comes with an English 7.1 Dolby TrueHD audio soundtrack.
...Maybe it is secretly encoded with Dolby Atmos? ...That would be ...I don't think so though.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-05-2014 at 03:50 AM.
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post #3012 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 09:40 PM
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As an aside; I notice few members here who aren't spelling correctly 'Maleficent'

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-XO4XiRop0

That's just the tip of the iceberg of the grammatical horrors I see here every day
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post #3013 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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What percentage of this happening? ...Because no two homes are the same.
True but homes differ from dubbing stages and movie theaters too. Doing mixes for acoustically small rooms is difficult - there's no universally accepted acoustical standard for small rooms - nevertheless it is done every single day for music recordings.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

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post #3014 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 11:02 PM
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... I remember seeing a poll in another section which asked how many speakers we had and was real surprised the majority of responders on AVS had only 5 speakers(and in 2nd place was 7) but only a few had 9 or more using height and/or wides...[/URL]
That sounds right; makes you wonder how it can be worthwhile for mfgr's to bother making 9+ ch receivers, and if Atmos-enabled ones will survive.

Maybe the incremental cost of 7.1/Atmos over the bread-and-butter models isn't very much.

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post #3015 of 9742 Old 08-04-2014, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Heck, Home Theaters in living rooms are considerably different (even from each other} than dedicated Home Theater rooms where folks go to a lot of trouble to try and get it acoustically similar to Movie Theaters.
How do you define acoustically similar? It's the room sizes that sets them apart:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...86&name=harman

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post #3016 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
True but homes differ from dubbing stages and movie theaters too. Doing mixes for acoustically small rooms is difficult - there's no universally accepted acoustical standard for small rooms - nevertheless it is done every single day for music recordings.
Markus, where are moving picture soundtracks made/mixed and recorded?

And for that matter, where are classical orchestral live operas recorded?

See, film soundtracks recorded in some larger studio theaters, and medium studio theaters, and smaller studio venues, with the dialog recorded on some booths (lip sync), dubbing stages (foley sound effects), orchestral music (larger spaces with good acoustics), mixing consoles with pre-recorded sounds (with EQ added, dynamic compression, etc.) - music recordings done in small jazz venues, blues alleys, professional recording studios of all genre and size, auditoriums, churches, halls of all sizes and everywhere in the world, etc., etc., etc. - makes the music reproduction @ home the impossible art of accurate replication of that moment in time and in space. ...Magic is the best we can hope for in this audio hobby of ours where the Music is the main essence entering our soul through emotional chords of harmony and unison.

Imagine, if you would be a professional recording/mastering artist sound engineer who has his own professional recording studio and use various microphones or few. ...And recording music from the artists you like; a la David Chesky for just naming one example (New York).
Or for the ECM record label in their main recording studios in Europe, or for the Classic Channels record label, or for Concord Jazz record label, or for Reference Recordings studios, or ...

...And the same thing with all the various movie studios; Sony Columbia various studios and sound mixing theaters, , FOX studios, Paramount studios, Universal studios, Warner Brothers studios, Disney various sound stages, studios and theaters (Hollywood, California), Lions Gate studios in North Vancouver, Criterion sound mix venue, etc. etc. etc.

Where all the sounds are recorded, mixed, manipulated, equalized, ..., it's a mine field out there and to expect to be perfect in each one of our living rooms and home theater rooms is like asking for lady Godiva nude on her white horse running on water and with her golden hair floating freely in the four winds from the four corners of the world.

God lock!

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #3017 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Keith

If you're asking how many theatrical movies were 7.1 for the cinema, I wouldn't have a clue. Filmmixer might have an idea

If you're asking how many BD releases are 7.1, there's several sites that listed all available 6.1/7.1 BD's. Here's one I can link to.

The original post is in 2010 but the author is keeping the list up-to-date with new & latest titles.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159814

counting rows on an excel sheet, his total is 711.

the total # of blu-ray titles released is many tens of thousands from all studios. it's going to be tedious to add up the list by studio but I'll see if I can parse the textual listings to just get numbers and will let you know the number if I succeed!

the same site has the totals by genre and by studio. if totals by genre don't overlap, the total will be well over 300,000.

for the sake of argument, let's say 7.1's are < 0.25 % of the total.

IOW, very dam few are taking advantage of existing capability.

and total number of Atmos titles is about 120, right?

not scientific by any means but looking at numbers, it took all Blu-ray studios 8 yrs to release 711 titles with 7.1 out of all the movies released, or about 89/yr.

with 120 titles with a subset of a subset for Atmos, it could take 1.3 yrs for them to get thru the list IF they decided to aggressively release them at the same pace of ~90/yr. or it could take a decade (!) if they follow the same pattern as 7.1
The point I was making is that the comparison with Atmos and 7.1 mixes is irrelevant. If a movie was mixed in 5.1 then it is significant extra work to remix it in 7.1 for the home. And a fair comparison would look at home many 7.1 mixes existed about 3 months after the launch of discrete 5.1. To save the trouble of checking, it was none.


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post #3018 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 02:30 AM
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In reference to post number 3012 ::

Won't happen Markus; money. ...It cost money. ...Thing is that Dolby Atmos is SCALABLE to our home rooms from the theatrical mixes.

They'll transfer what they have to our Blu-rays just like they keep doing it since 2006.

* Ask Marc, and Roger what they think.

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post #3019 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Won't happen Markus; money. ...It cost money.
I agree, nevertheless there are Blu-ray remixes. How many? Marc might have statistical data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
...Thing is that Dolby Atmos is SCALABLE to our home rooms from the theatrical mixes.
Define "scalable". Does Atmos render to fewer or more speakers than used during re-recording? Yes. Does it change how a mix is perceived at home vs. a movie theater? No. Why would it?

Atmos doesn't do away with the fact that acoustically small rooms behave differently than acoustically large rooms. Acoustics doesn't "scale". Atmos scales the number of speakers but it can't "scale" physics. Reflection patterns in acoustically small rooms are different from larger spaces. The way we perceive sound differs with room size.

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post #3020 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Ask Marc and Roger what they think.
Yes sir! Marc and Roger what do you think?

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post #3021 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I agree, nevertheless there are Blu-ray remixes. How many? Marc might have statistical data.
Very very very few; not even worth mentioning (from Disney, and another studio; can't remember).

Quote:
Originally Posted by m767
Define "scalable". Does Atmos render to fewer or more speakers than used during re-recording? Yes. Does it change how a mix is perceived at home vs. a movie theater? No. Why would it?
Marc, Roger, and Keith know more about the term "scale" than I when it comes to Dolby Atmos.

Yeah, object perception from the theaters to our homes; hard to define when we're not behind those mixing consoles. ...Marc is best, I think, for that. ...Just be cool with him.

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post #3022 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 03:01 AM
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Posts removed and condescending remarks edited out.

If you can't take the high road, then I'm going to start removing members from the thread. Discuss the topic and not each other. Don't even address each other. State your point and that's it. Look over your post and ask yourself if it's something the community would get information from or if it's just arguing, it's best to delete and move on.

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post #3023 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Here you go Markus.
Markus isn't discussing the same issue. He is, rightly, pointing out that home theaters are (usually) pretty small spaces and commercial theaters aren't. In our home theaters many of us listen in the near field. Markus's contention is that the two very different acoustic spaces require different mixes. I am not sure I agree with that but I can see why it is worth discussing, although maybe this thread isn't the best place to do so.

When I mentioned Atmos scaling, I was referring to hardware, not the acoustic space in which the content would be replayed.


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post #3024 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That's fair. Just because I think they're doing a good job doesn't mean there aren't equally effective or more effective ways to have done it. I think that's one of the better aspects of this launch: lots of buzz amongst enthusiasts, lots of questions waiting to be answered, lots of speculation building up, all without Dolby having issued an official announcement. Like having manufacturers warm up the audience before doing a press conference.

Bringing the manufacturers on board and letting them do most of the work for you is one of the things which I think is very clever about Dolby's launch strategy.

I once launched a new financial investment product for a major international broking and investment company. We brought all the main personal financial adviser firms in the UK on side, NDA-ed them to the hilt, and revealed full details of the new product, how it worked, how it was different, better etc than what had gone before and the date on which it would be available for sale (about 3 months down the line). We controlled what information the personal adviser firms could release publicly and let them loose. Soon they were all telling their high value clients "don't invest or tie up that $100,000 - $1,000,000 right now, something big and new and better is coming. We can’t tell you exactly what it is yet, but believe me, you will want it when you see it." As a result, we generated incredible interest in the marketplace and we did untold damage to the competition by getting investors to hold back those funds until our new product was ready. When we finally launched, the pent-up demand sent sales through the roof in the critical first 6 months and the amount of free publicity we garnered was worth millions of dollars.

I see some parallels to the Dolby launch there.


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post #3025 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 05:13 AM
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That's just the tip of the iceberg of the grammatical horrors I see here every day
Yes--not to mention spelling and punctuation lapses. It is disconcerting, but not unexpected. OTOH, it made my heart soar last night to see Keith's correct idiomatic use of a term from the Mamaloschen. Mir gefällt's, Bubele!

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Would it be because it's nothing really to do with Dolby? it's the studios' responsibility to promote the content. I've already speculated on a possible reason why they are keeping schtum about it for now but you said it would piss people off
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post #3026 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
Hey, has anyone seen this article?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-secret-bluray/


This would be awesome if true. And the beauty from what I understand is, it won't have to be in a preset 5.1.4, 7.1.2, etc. The processor knows the room and speakers, and delivers the best it can with what it has, real time encoding for YOUR setup. So I wonder what kind of microphone array the Atmos receivers will have for room calibration?
That isn’t how the first generation of Atmos for the home is going to work, based on all information available to date. Specific speaker azimuth and elevation angles will not be provided to the processor, so it will have no way to know where your speakers are. They will have to be placed in accordance with the angles detailed on the oft-posted diagram.

WRT to HTTYD, if you click the link in the article it takes you to more information, which includes:

"UPDATE (7/30): We heard back from Jeff Hare, VP of Publicity at DreamWorks and he tells us that neither "How to Train Your Dragon" nor the upcoming "Star Trek: The Compendium" set have Dolby Atmos encoding. Per the home video team, "Atmos encoding for Blu-ray was not available when we made the newest Dragon disc to include it there, hidden or not." So the mystery about which title has a stealth Atmos track still remains..."


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-05-2014 at 05:23 AM.
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post #3027 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by abbyss View Post
i know dolby atmos has speakers all around the room` but what i`d like to know.is the sound effects really 3 dimensional has in freed from the speakers and projected out in the room like in real life ?
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Does anyone know WTF this means?
I'm pretty sure it means: "Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?"

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post #3028 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
How many theatrical mixes are 7.1, out of the total?
FWIW, a database of 10518 BDs and their formats is available at

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

515 of those are known to have been released in 7.1.

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post #3029 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
FWIW, a database of 10518 BDs and their formats is available at

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

515 of those are known to have been released in 7.1.
That is Bluray releases, Selden. My question was how many theatrical releases had been mixed in 7.1.

It was to counter a point attempting to correlate 7.1 BD releases with Atmos (potential) releases.

If in the last several years there have been only 515 7.1 Bluray releases, then this bodes exceptionally well for Atmos Bluray releases IMO, as over 120 movies have already been theatrically mixed in Atmos. This is the opposite of what was being contended.

And out of those 515 7.1 Bluray releases, how many were theatrical releases in 7.1? Half? Fewer?

The reason there are so few 7.1 mixes on Bluray is that there are very few 7.1 theatrical mixes, and it takes significant effort to remix especially for the Bluray release. That won’t apply with Atmos - every Atmos movie can expect an Atmos Bluray release, and as the adoption of Atmos is growing much faster than the adoption of 5.1, at the same stage in its evolution, we can therefore expect Atmos releases on Bluray (of Atmos theatrical mixes obviously) to become the norm.


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post #3030 of 9742 Old 08-05-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It is very three dimensional. One of the misconceptions about Atmos, IMO, is that it is mainly about 'height effects' - helicopters, rain and so on. It IS about that but it is much more than that. Just as important is the sense of three dimensionality that Atmos brings to the sound. If you haven't yet heard an Atmos soundtrack, I urge you to try to do so.
I've heard you say this several times and I completely believe you. I know it's difficult to describe sound with language, but can you clarify what exactly "much more" is? (Sorry, there are no Atmos theaters within 5-6 hours of me).
Since height speakers are the only additional channels besides the standard 5.1/7.1 "audio bed", the only way in which I could see Atmos being "much more" than height effects is if the objects are panned through all the speakers (including the channel bed) thus being able to "place and object anywhere". Does this sound like a proper assumption to you, having heard a demo of the home version first hand?


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