The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Keep in mind that we've had discrete 7.1 tracks on Blu-ray for almost four years before there were any theatrical 7.1 mixes.
Yeah, no kidding. I'm sure I have a few of those early titles. IIRC, 3:10 to Yuma was an early one in 7.1 PCM.

Toy Story 3 was the first theatrical 7.1 release presented in Dolby Surround 7.1 which is what they call their 7.1 audio for cinema.


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post #3062 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:12 AM
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Keep in mind that we've had discrete 7.1 tracks on Blu-ray for almost four years before there were any theatrical 7.1 mixes.
Why are theaters trying to commit suicide? They need to stay on top of the game and lobby to get to keep new tech for a few years before it goes into our homes if they are to survive.

Feb 2015 I expect to have more Atmos home theaters in this country than cinemas with Atmos.... That won't exactly draw any crowds...
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post #3063 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:15 AM
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Why are theaters trying to commit suicide? They need to stay on top of the game and lobby to get to keep new tech for a few years before it goes into our homes if they are to survive.

Feb 2015 I expect to have more Atmos home theaters in this country than cinemas with Atmos.... That won't exactly draw any crowds...
The general movie going population probably has no idea what Dolby Atmos is or cares.

Just the likes of us.
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post #3064 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So in about a decade, roughly the same number as Atmos mixes since Atmos started less than a couple of years ago.
Not a decade, since discrete 7.1 theatrical mixes started June of 2010. So about 4 years.

As for Atmos, there are about 60 English language movies so far, counting to Maze Runner in mid-September. No English language movies listed after that, but we do know there is one more Hobbit movie coming in December and the upcoming Avengers movie announced in Atmos for next year.

When you see Atmos and Auro talk about over 100 movies mixed in their respective formats, they're including lots of foreign language movies (especially Auro) that might never end up with an Atmos soundtrack on BD.

With that in mind, I prefer counting only English language titles. The numbers are not as exciting, but it is a more realistic indicator of what might end up on BD. For Auro, it's about 15 titles (all but 2 were also mixed in Atmos). For Atmos, it's around 60 titles so far.

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post #3065 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:32 AM
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Why are theaters trying to commit suicide?
Everyone needs a hobby.
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post #3066 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The main benefit of Atmos, IME, is not flyovers and overhead effects as such. It is the ability of the mixer to use a three dimensional space in which to place objects. So he can put a sound slightly above you, in front of you and to the right all at the same time. The overhead speakers make this possible. Think of it as triangles - wherever the sound from three speakers 'intersects' is a triangulated point in space.
? Sounds like you're talking about those speakers from awhile back that produced audio-modulated high freq beams that produced sound from the difference freq's generated by interference at locations where the beams physically intersected.

Two speakers is all it takes to produce a phantom image; Atmos doesn't give 3D because of more speakers but because it encodes 3D signals.

Not practical for more than one person, but all it would take for 3D sound is four speakers located at the vertices of a tetrahedron.

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At home we do not usually use an array of surround speakers. Instead we use just one speaker per channel. This is a compromise we all have to make.
I'm not so sure it's not the theaters that have to compromise in order to deal with listeners' wider range of listening angles compared to at home.

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post #3067 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Why are theaters trying to commit suicide? They need to stay on top of the game and lobby to get to keep new tech for a few years before it goes into our homes if they are to survive.

Feb 2015 I expect to have more Atmos home theaters in this country than cinemas with Atmos.... That won't exactly draw any crowds...

Here in flyover country, I cannot recall a theater ever advertising itself as superior on the basis of anything audio. Presumably if it moved the needle they'd do it. I don't count the pre-movie blurbs from DTS or whoever, which mostly seem to demonstrate that the system in question can clearly and painfully recreate high-mid and treble heavy sounds at high level. WHEE! Ouch.
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post #3068 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:40 AM
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I'm sure I have a few of those early titles. IIRC, 3:10 to Yuma was an early one in 7.1 PCM.
Yup, I think Crank was one of the early ones too.
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Toy Story 3 was the first theatrical 7.1 release presented in Dolby Surround 7.1 which is what they call their 7.1 audio for cinema.
8 channels of good ol' PCM and they name it Dolby Surround 7.1 (that company has some balls).

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post #3069 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I'm not so sure it's not the theaters that have to compromise in order to deal with listeners' wider range of listening angles compared to at home.
Hey, Noah. Thanks for commenting. I do believe my syntax was not correct when I posted that. I'm often taking several laps to and from the computer here at work.

That comment should have been aligned with my comments about where to place our surrounds at home. Not in reference to we having to compromise because we do not use surround arrays.

Hope that clears up any confusion.




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Yup, I think Crank was one of the early ones too. 8 channels of good ol' PCM and they name it Dolby Surround 7.1 (that company has some balls).
Ah yeah, I've got that one too but I swear Crank was 6.1 (mono surrounds). I'd have to look.

Lol I thought that was very confusing when they first announced Dolby Surround 7.1 sound for cinema. I was like, "Don't you guys already have....ahhh forget it."
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post #3070 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:47 AM
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Interesting information about more and more studios beeing ATMOS

Sands Mixes in Atmos with Meyer

Santa Barbara, CA (August 5, 2014)—

Film sound engineer Dennis S. Sands has installed a Meyer Sound cinema loudspeaker system for mixing in Dolby Atmos at his Sound Waves SB studio.

Sands, private facility, located in Santa Barbara, CA, is the first Dolby Atmos dubbing stage dedicated exclusively to native mixing of film music.

Sands’ monitoring system is anchored by three Acheron 80 screen channel loudspeakers and two X-800C high-power and X-400C cinema subwoofers each. Perimeter and overhead reinforcement comprises 14 HMS-10 and 10 HMS-12 surround loudspeakers with IntelligentDC technology, while a Galileo loudspeaker management system with one Galileo 408 processor supplies drive and equalization.

Since installation, Sands has finished native Atmos film score mixes for Mr. Peabody & Sherman and the 2014 Godzilla reboot. He has also completed a 7.1 mix of Maze Runner and television mixes for the Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey series.

Sands’ studio was designed by film sound legend Tomlinson Holman and originally built as a private dubbing stage for director Andrew Davis. The room features a 12-by-20-foot screen, a Euphonix System 5-MC DAW controller, a Euphonix CS3000 digitally-controlled analog console, and four linked Pro Tools systems. A Focusrite RedNet 6 MADI bridge connects the Dolby Atmos RMU (Rendering and Mastering Unit) to a BSS SoundWeb London DSP system, which is used primarily for signal routing when switching from Atmos to 5.1 or 7.1 monitoring.
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post #3071 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
? Sounds like you're talking about those speakers from awhile back that produced audio-modulated high freq beams that produced sound from the difference freq's generated by interference at locations where the beams physically intersected.
Really? Sounded to me like he was talking about a phantom image between 3 speakers.
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Two speakers is all it takes to produce a phantom image;
Produce a phantom image along a straight line. Like 2 speakers in front of you at ear height producing a horizontal soundstage. A third speaker can pull the phantom image away from from that line. Like a height speaker giving elevation to certain sounds in the horizontal soundstage.
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Atmos doesn't give 3D because of more speakers but because it encodes 3D signals.
What 3D signals?

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post #3072 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You're probably right. Looking back over older articles I think my memory was blending what SMPTE wanted to have happen with a universal, cross-platform, "open" package that would play nicely between the opposing Dolby and DTS object formats.
Recall that too ; wonder how the smpte is getting on with standardizing

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post #3073 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Really? Sounded to me like he was talking about a phantom image between 3 speakers.
I guess so; my point was that the way phantom images are created is no different with Atmos.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What 3D signals?
The x/y/z object data, which will give 3D locations closer to what was intended vs. the 3D location we now get that depends on where we put our speakers.

That's the crux of Atmos, not how phantom images are created.

Noah

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post #3074 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:20 PM
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The general movie going population probably has no idea what Dolby Atmos is or cares.

Just the likes of us.
You know given the comments about the small number of 7.1 BD releases tied with the lack of consumer knowledge against Atmos probably doesn't inspire studios to provide home theater fans any BD's with Dolby Atmos audio tracks any time in the immediate future. When a consumer goes to the cinema they would be impressed with vivid image realism and effects from digital images, the story, but typically audio effects are more or less either great or so so, its not like they pay that much attention to the quality or placement of the sound effects especially when its very loud.

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post #3075 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:26 PM
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Not a decade, since discrete 7.1 theatrical mixes started June of 2010. So about 4 years.
Ah yes - good point. I was thinking since the start of 7.1 on Bluray. But the general point I was trying to make still stands.

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As for Atmos, there are about 60 English language movies so far, counting to Maze Runner in mid-September. No English language movies listed after that, but we do know there is one more Hobbit movie coming in December and the upcoming Avengers movie announced in Atmos for next year.
Surely more than 60?

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/experienc...os/movies.html

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When you see Atmos and Auro talk about over 100 movies mixed in their respective formats, they're including lots of foreign language movies (especially Auro) that might never end up with an Atmos soundtrack on BD.
Yes, that's a fair comment. Although some of them may well, even though they are foreign titles - Dr Dee for example probably will. A lot of my Chinese movies have fantastic sound - in fact most of them.

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With that in mind, I prefer counting only English language titles. The numbers are not as exciting, but it is a more realistic indicator of what might end up on BD. For Auro, it's about 15 titles (all but 2 were also mixed in Atmos). For Atmos, it's around 60 titles so far.
OK - but the pace of adoption is still faster than it was for 7.1, and way faster than it was for 5.1 so it bodes well. And I am sure that every movie mixed in Atmos which does find its way to Bluray will be an Atmos release, so there will be a steady stream coming along. In my Amazon Wishlist, for example, I currently have 14 Blurays, of which all but 4 are Atmos theatrical mixes - and as most of the 10 will not be released in the UK until after September, I am sure they will all be Atmos Blurays.

I can’t see what the doomsayers are trying to get across - if anyone thinks there will be hundreds of Atmos Blurays on Day One, clearly that ain't gonna happen. But there will be a steady stream coming along as more and more movies are mixed in Atmos.
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post #3076 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
The x/y/z object data, which will give 3D locations closer to what was intended vs. the 3D location we now get that depends on where we put our speakers.
But that's not a 3D signal, just the same sounds as before that are intensity panned so they end up between more than 2 speakers. After that...
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...the way phantom images are created is no different with Atmos.

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post #3077 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
? Sounds like you're talking about those speakers from awhile back that produced audio-modulated high freq beams that produced sound from the difference freq's generated by interference at locations where the beams physically intersected.

Two speakers is all it takes to produce a phantom image; Atmos doesn't give 3D because of more speakers but because it encodes 3D signals.

Not practical for more than one person, but all it would take for 3D sound is four speakers located at the vertices of a tetrahedron.


I'm not so sure it's not the theaters that have to compromise in order to deal with listeners' wider range of listening angles compared to at home.
Two speakers can phantom image in two dimensions of course. But the overhead layer is needed for triangulation in three dimensions, which is where the precision and the 'three-dimensionality' comes from.

Theaters certainly have a more difficult job to do, with so many people over such a big area of course.


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-05-2014 at 12:38 PM.
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post #3078 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
You know given the comments about the small number of 7.1 BD releases tied with the lack of consumer knowledge against Atmos probably doesn't inspire studios to provide home theater fans any BD's with Dolby Atmos audio tracks any time in the immediate future. When a consumer goes to the cinema they would be impressed with vivid image realism and effects from digital images, the story, but typically audio effects are more or less either great or so so, its not like they pay that much attention to the quality or placement of the sound effects especially when its very loud.
What you're missing is that once the Atmos mix has been done for the theatrical release it's real easy (and cheap) to deliver it on Bluray, so there's no real reason not to. That scalability is one of the huge steps forward with Atmos compared with what exists now. 7.1 on BD is a total red herring.
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post #3079 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
...Anyway. So how do we fill this gap? Simple. Move your surrounds a bit forward, fill that gap and sit 'inside' the surround field. I have tried this in the past with some older floorstanders and I liked the effect. I just haven't done it for a long time because I have surrounds mounted on the wall and they don't move. I will try it again though. Others have tried it and do it currently with pleasing results.
I assume when doing this and watching a 5.1 movie, one must use PLIIx (which I use all the time anyway)

Interesting. It always did seem odd that there would be more surround speakers than main speakers (3 in front, 4 in the rear).

I'll have to mull this over and then do some experimenting with this concept once I get some quality time with the HT system.


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post #3080 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:43 PM
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But that's not a 3D signal, just the same sounds as before that are intensity panned so they end up between more than 2 speakers. After that...
Right; I should have said 3D location data embedded in the signal.

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Two speakers can phantom image in two dimensions of course. But the overhead layer is needed for triangulation in three dimensions, which is where the precision and the 'three-dimensionality' comes from.
My objection is to the use of the term triangulation, which is no more applicable to phantom imaging using three speakers as it is two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation

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post #3081 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:46 PM
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I assume when doing this and watching a 5.1 movie, one must use PLIIx (which I use all the time anyway)

Interesting. It always did seem odd that there would be more surround speakers than main speakers (3 in front, 4 in the rear).

I'll have to mull this over and then do some experimenting with this concept once I get some quality time with the HT system.
The ITU standards for 7.1 are exemplified in this diagram - as you see, Scott's suggested layout meets with their approval:



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post #3082 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Surely more than 60?
I counted 60 English language movies so far.
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Dr Dee for example probably will. A lot of my Chinese movies have fantastic sound - in fact most of them.
You mean Young Detective Dee, last year's prequel to the 2010 Detective Dee movie?

Since I have the latter on BD, I looked all over Los Angeles and environs to find an Atmos theatre playing the prequel, to no avail (some Chinese movies, like Grandmasters, did get a theatrical run locally in Atmos).

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OK - but the pace of adoption is still faster than it was for 7.1, and way faster than it was for 5.1 so it bodes well.
Yes, 60 Atmos movies in 2 years is faster than 85 7.1 movies in 4 years. And the pace is quite good (5 movies in August).
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post #3083 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:56 PM
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My objection is to the use of the term triangulation, which is no more applicable to phantom imaging using three speakers as it is two.
I did say "think of it like triangulation", meaning that this was a loose comparison. But you still can’t position an object in three dimensional space using only two co-ordinates. Sure, you can plot where a third point is from two locations, using simple sine math, but that isn't the same thing.

All I meant by "think of it like triangles" was an easy way of getting a grasp of the basic principles involved in x, y, z co-ordinate plotting. One of the Atmos trailers uses triangle graphics heavily, which I am sure isn't a coincidence.



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post #3084 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 12:59 PM
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I counted 60 English language movies so far. You mean Young Detective Dee, last year's prequel to the 2010 Detective Dee movie?
LOL - WTF is Dr Dee?! yes, I meant Detective Dee...

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Since I have the latter on BD, I looked all over Los Angeles and environs to find an Atmos theatre playing the prequel, to no avail (some Chinese movies, like Grandmasters, did get a theatrical run locally in Atmos).
Amazing - I’d have done that too. You are the only person other than me, whom I know anyway, who has even heard of Detective Dee.

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BTW, if you haven't already read the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_Renjie#In_fiction Yes, 60 Atmos movies in 2 years is faster than 85 7.1 movies in 4 years. And the pace is quite good (5 movies in August).
Yup.
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post #3085 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:03 PM
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You are the only person other than me, whom I know anyway, who has even heard of Detective Dee.
He was a real life person who did some unbelievable things (they have the film to prove it).
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post #3086 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:21 PM
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But you still can’t position an object in three dimensional space using only two co-ordinates.
Sure you can; the location of a mono image for a centered listener is located between the 3D positions of the L/R speakers.

Though now that I think about I wonder if even Atmos isn't really giving us 3D, but just expanding directional 2D info from a line to a surface.

The perception of depth info is generated psychoacoustically by the use of reflections, not by placing speakers at different distances.

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All I meant by "think of it like triangles" was an easy way of getting a grasp of the basic principles involved in x, y, z co-ordinate plotting. One of the Atmos trailers uses triangle graphics heavily, which I am sure isn't a coincidence.
Might be easy, but I just don't see the technical basis.

I don't think those triangles mean anything, likely just easy to generate images with since they're the basis of computer graphics.

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He was a real life person who did some unbelievable things (they have the film to prove it).
I didn't realize film has been around so long

"Di Renjie (630 – August 15, 700[1])"
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Last edited by noah katz; 08-05-2014 at 01:36 PM.
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post #3087 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:35 PM
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I didn't realize film has been around so long

"Di Renjie (630 – August 15, 700[1])"
Acetate hadn't been invented, so they used strips of rice paper with an egg-based emulsion. Problem was, the camera department kept eating the film stock.
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post #3088 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:49 PM
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Acetate hadn't been invented, so they used strips of rice paper with an egg-based emulsion. Problem was, the camera department kept eating the film stock.

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post #3089 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:55 PM
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Sure you can; the location of a mono image for a centered listener is located between the 3D positions of the L/R speakers.
But that is on a horizontal plane.

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Though now that I think about I wonder if even Atmos isn't really giving us 3D, but just expanding directional 2D info from a line to a surface.
I freely admit that you have lost me here Noah You are giving me examples of x and y, but no z.

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The perception of depth info is generated psychoacoustically by the use of reflections, not by placing speakers at different distances.
Psychoacoustic perception is always going to be trumped by a real 'object' (pun intended). But again, depth cues are on the horizontal plane. Where are you going to get x, y and z from, all at the same time, with 2D?

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I don't think those triangles mean anything, likely just easy to generate images with since they're the basis of computer graphics.
That may be the case but it doesn't change the fact that Atmos works the way I described.

This post has interesting, and more authoritative, stuff on the subject of triangles:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25767561

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I didn't realize film has been around so long

"Di Renjie (630 – August 15, 700[1])"
Of course, if we use the Jewish calendar it's 5774 already....


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-05-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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post #3090 of 8730 Old 08-05-2014, 01:56 PM
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He was a real life person who did some unbelievable things (they have the film to prove it).
Yes - I followed your link (thanks BTW). I had no idea...


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