The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 107 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3181 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
I am not sure if Atmos will gain traction in a home setting in the near future. However, if Atmos becomes a standard no cost option in every AVR then a lot of people will play around with it. Then again, will all Atmos decoders be "the same" or will their be Atmos decoder "tiers"? A lot of people do not even use a dedicated 5.1 sound system with their large screen TV sets. As a side note I have a 3D capable bluray player and 3D capable TV, but I have never watched a 3D encoded movie at home. Not sure if I ever will either.

Object-based audio is not just about "more speakers". We'll have to wait to see just what improved user interactive features will be offered on Atmos BDs . . . and (tragically!) there also exists the real possibility of location-dependent and|or internet-replaceable ("background audio") product placement!


A radio that is able to change a broadcast depending on where you are and what you are doing has been demonstrated by the BBC (link)
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post #3182 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Object-based audio is not just about "more speakers". We'll have to wait to see just what improved user interactive features will be offered on Atmos BDs . . . and (tragically!) there also exists the real possibility of location-dependent and|or internet-replaceable ("background audio") product placement!


Seems like a lot of people here act like teenage girls. They just love to be in love!
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post #3183 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:11 AM
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^^^ Mmmm, nachos. Can drink the cheese sauce as a beverage.
Agh!

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It may be a true 8 channel signal, but that does not make it a true 8 channel mix.
Why not?

Is an actual 7.1 signal not "true" if it was remixed into 7.1?

That makes no sense. It's one thing to mention if a film has been remixed but if the time was put into making a whole new mix whether it was from mono, stereo, surround or what you .... it is still a true 'mix'. The only time it is not is if your home audio device is using it's post-process upmixing (ie: Prologic, NEOX, etc) to do it from something that is <7.1 on disk.
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post #3184 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Object-based audio is not just about "more speakers". We'll have to wait to see just what improved user interactive features will be offered on Atmos BDs . . . and (tragically!) there also exists the real possibility of location-dependent and|or internet-replaceable ("background audio") product placement!
Shut up! Just shut your trap!

Move along... nothing to see here!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #3185 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Seems like a lot of people here act like teenage girls. They just love to be in love!

We're all swooning over Dolby's promises of audio nirvana! Catch me! I declare, I do believe I might just have the vapors!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #3186 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:19 AM
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^^^ Mmmm, nachos. Can drink the cheese sauce as a beverage.
Lol I just had a visual of you pouring the nacho cheese like you do your sodas.

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post #3187 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:20 AM
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Straight, no ice.

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post #3188 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:21 AM
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Lol I just had a visual of you pouring the nacho cheese like you do your sodas.
Cinema concessions: Disgustingly delicious!

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post #3189 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Actually, Atmos does command a higher price per ticket because theater owners have wrapped it within their "premium" auditorium pricing structure. It used to be that giant screen auditoriums were just standard ticketed items, but not any more.

It boils down to whether or not the studios will look at Atmos and DTS-UHD on home video the same way.
It costs more because they have a bigger screen, better projection, premium seating, seat reservations etc. Not just because of Atmos. I guess we can’t separate them out easily, but it seems to me, based on the promotional material used by the theaters, that the extra cost is justified by the things I mentioned and not by Atmos which is a kind of afterthought. Picture always takes precedence over sound it seems.
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post #3190 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I understand the core+extension approach of DTS and Dolby's codecs, however the language used in the lastest white paper for the Atmos "substream" could leave one with the impression that it contains a full soundtrack encoded as metadata+objects only. That, after all, was always a possibility as a means to deliver soundtracks without using channels.
That's what it supposedly is: all objects "downmixed" with additional metadata. "We have added a fourth substream for Dolby Atmos sound. This substream represents a losslessly encoded fully object-based mix."
How do they do it? We don't know. "We’ve met that challenge with a technology called spatial audio coding."

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post #3191 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Today I would guess the number is 75-80%.

Don't expect the number to change because of Atmos. However, I suspect some of the initial release will not be due to the simple fact that there are very few studios setup to do so at this point. We're sciguring this out now.
Wow, 75-80% is pretty high. I would have guessed less. Do you need a near-field re-recording mixer at your place?

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post #3192 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The x,y coordinates will determine left/right and front/back. The z coordinate determines height.
And there is also a parameter for the size/spread of an object.
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post #3193 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:56 AM
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Wow, 75-80% is pretty high. I would have guessed less. Do you need a near-field re-recording mixer at your place?
It's is much more commonplace today than even 3 years ago.

No.. always just looking for regular old mixers (who will then do their own NF's).
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post #3194 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 11:57 AM
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Have you folks noticed on that scheme that there are two pair of speakers between LCR? In commercial Atmos, it's only one pair. The Left and Right are now at a whopping +/- 45°!

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #3195 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
And there is also a parameter for the size/spread of an object.
How could it do this other than with "subobjects", i.e. different parts of an object emitting different sounds?

Because using more speakers just changes the location of the object, and reverb gives cues as to the space the object is in, not its size.

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post #3196 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 12:15 PM
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How could it do this other than with "subobjects", i.e. different parts of an object emitting different sounds?

Because using more speakers just changes the location of the object, and reverb gives cues as to the space the object is in, not its size.
I'm not sure why it's confusing.

It's much more apparent why this is necessary in a theatrical setting because there are still arrays used for the surrounds in the bed.. If we're mixing for a typical cinema, we might want the object to emirate from a point that is "wider" than one speaker....

For instance ambient wind or even a car driving around the theater...

One of the big reasons it was requested was to do what you refer to... a sound might have associated reverb that should spread out around the object and travel with it... no sub objects... just use more..... it's really cool when you rotate such things around the room.
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post #3197 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Congratulations! You have pretty much reinvented the downmix capability strategy employed with Hamasaki 22.2 audio as it is currently being implemented by NHK Japanese TV as the audio component of their forthcoming SHV broadcast technology. (Nonetheless, it seems they may still intend to implement a hybrid channel|object-based audio delivery mechanism in the form of (possibly only static) user-interactive objects.)
_
Guess that means my idea was sound then? ( Will have to google what that Hamasaki thing is, though. )

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post #3198 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
And there is also a parameter for the size/spread of an object.
I cropped the size/spread slider out of the pics I posted so as not to open up another can of worms.

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post #3199 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I'm not sure why it's confusing.
Maybe because I first thought of a parameter as a single variable, whereas there must be a lot more to the inner workings to give an object size.

Your explanation was helpful though, thanks.

Noah
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I would think that most people will just do 5.1.2 with adding top speakers in the ceiling between MLP and front speakers or upfiring Atmos speakers that sit on top of my front main speakers.. Hopefully audyssey will do the rest, i want it simple i don't own a sliderule and most of us are in small rooms with hardly enough room to put 5.1 surrounds.....
untill i get my Atmos receiver it's all speculation... I personally want 5.2.4 but i should be happy with an entry level AVR for now doing 5.2.2 especially being a first generation Atmos...

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10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /
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post #3201 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
How could it do this other than with "subobjects", i.e. different parts of an object emitting different sounds?
For the sake of completeness:



Object size/spread parameter ranges from 0 to 100.

At 0, the object is not being spread (object size is effectively off), so the sound goes to the speaker(s) nearest its coordinates. At 100, the object is spread to all speakers, irrespective of coordinates.

The pics above shows an object (size = 26) being panned.

Sanjay
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post #3202 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 02:31 PM
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AT screen and up firing speakers

Sorry if I've missed it.
Has there been any discussion on the use of the up firing speakers when behind an AT screen?
I am planning for a large AT screen and had planned on just putting all the front speakers behind it, not just the center. Typically the AT screen is secured to the ceiling in some fashion as it sits 1-3 feet from the front (treated) wall. Since the screen is typically down some measure from the ceiling there could be room for the up firing part of the speakers to bounce their signal over the screen but that seems they would be severely limited in terms of angles. (9 ft ceiling in my case, but more is better.)

Alternatively, would the up firing speakers work as well firing through the AT screen?

Has Dolby Atmos, Pioneer, anyone else looked into the AT aspect?

Paul
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post #3203 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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At 0, the object is not being spread (object size is effectively off), so the sound goes to the speaker(s) nearest its coordinates.
Does it? I thought "snap to nearest speaker" is optional?

Markus

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post #3204 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
Sorry if I've missed it.
Has there been any discussion on the use of the up firing speakers when behind an AT screen?
I am planning for a large AT screen and had planned on just putting all the front speakers behind it, not just the center. Typically the AT screen is secured to the ceiling in some fashion as it sits 1-3 feet from the front (treated) wall. Since the screen is typically down some measure from the ceiling there could be room for the up firing part of the speakers to bounce their signal over the screen but that seems they would be severely limited in terms of angles. (9 ft ceiling in my case, but more is better.)

Alternatively, would the up firing speakers work as well firing through the AT screen?

Has Dolby Atmos, Pioneer, anyone else looked into the AT aspect?

Paul
There are so many uncertainties with these fixed-mounted ceiling-firing speakers, an AT screen has just a minor impact. Any loss caused by the screen can be made up with EQ.

The biggest problem with the Pioneer speakers is that they can't be angled. They seem to have a fixed angle of 15° which assumes that the speaker is very close to the listener. About 3'. If you're further away you need larger angles.

Markus

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post #3205 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
Sorry if I've missed it.
Has there been any discussion on the use of the up firing speakers when behind an AT screen?
I am planning for a large AT screen and had planned on just putting all the front speakers behind it, not just the center. Typically the AT screen is secured to the ceiling in some fashion as it sits 1-3 feet from the front (treated) wall. Since the screen is typically down some measure from the ceiling there could be room for the up firing part of the speakers to bounce their signal over the screen but that seems they would be severely limited in terms of angles. (9 ft ceiling in my case, but more is better.)

Alternatively, would the up firing speakers work as well firing through the AT screen?

Has Dolby Atmos, Pioneer, anyone else looked into the AT aspect?

Paul
I'm thinking it would be better to have real on-ceiling, timbre matched, wide-dispersion monopole speakers in your case. I would also wire for at least five behind the screen speakers, if it's big enough to warrant more than the basic three.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #3206 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 02:55 PM
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Right I think on ceiling is the 'approved solution' and angled speakers (ala Pioneer) are in the also good category. I just read a post that indicated the listeners could not tell the difference between the two methods but that was in a million dollar theater that exceeds the capabilities of most home theaters.
With 9 ft ceiling I do not know that is enough height to get the effect. I could still wire for them but even with DD/GG ceiling the holes present a sound transmission avenue. Backer boxes are only so effective. I can certainly run more wire to the front wall though.
(and here I was about to drywall the ceiling next week.)

Paul
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post #3207 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 03:19 PM
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Right I think on ceiling is the 'approved solution' and angled speakers (ala Pioneer) are in the also good category. I just read a post that indicated the listeners could not tell the difference between the two methods but that was in a million dollar theater that exceeds the capabilities of most home theaters.
With 9 ft ceiling I do not know that is enough height to get the effect. I could still wire for them but even with DD/GG ceiling the holes present a sound transmission avenue. Backer boxes are only so effective. I can certainly run more wire to the front wall though.
(and here I was about to drywall the ceiling next week.)

Paul
9 foot ceilings will be just fine with overhead surrounds... better than 8 foot ceilings. I would think about devising more aesthetically pleasing metal grid type mounting channels run along the ceiling in line where the top surrounds should go (almost like track lighting). Anchor the two channels to the ceiling joists for added support. That way you don't have to poke holes in the drywall and have a means by which the wires could be (mostly) hidden from view. Where there's a will there's a way.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 08-06-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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post #3208 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
Right I think on ceiling is the 'approved solution' and angled speakers (ala Pioneer) are in the also good category. I just read a post that indicated the listeners could not tell the difference between the two methods but that was in a million dollar theater that exceeds the capabilities of most home theaters.
With 9 ft ceiling I do not know that is enough height to get the effect. I could still wire for them but even with DD/GG ceiling the holes present a sound transmission avenue. Backer boxes are only so effective. I can certainly run more wire to the front wall though.
(and here I was about to drywall the ceiling next week.)



Paul
Good time to run some conduit, methinks.

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post #3209 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 03:30 PM
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We're all swooning over Dolby's promises of audio nirvana! Catch me! I declare, I do believe I might just have the vapors!
If you didn't already know.
World English Dictionary
atmo- combining form
air or vapour: atmometer ; atmosphere [via New Latin from Greek atmos vapour]

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post #3210 of 19914 Old 08-06-2014, 03:32 PM
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Per the previous discussion of three speakers forming a triangle within which lies a speaker location, which I believe can be expanded to any number of speakers, is not the result just to move the location of the phantom image to a different perceived point?

For example, if you put four speakers at each corner of a wall, is not there just a phantom image at a point at the center of the wall, same as there would be for just two speakers at mid-height?

Why would the phantom image be "bigger" (leaving aside the vagaries of imperfectly matched speakers and ear shape affecting perceived speaker response)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For the sake of completeness:



Object size/spread parameter ranges from 0 to 100.

At 0, the object is not being spread (object size is effectively off), so the sound goes to the speaker(s) nearest its coordinates. At 100, the object is spread to all speakers, irrespective of coordinates.

The pics above shows an object (size = 26) being panned.

Noah
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