The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #33331 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
No, I saying that driver size matters in the 80 to 200 range. Your saying it doesnt and that it is irrelevant if you have proper bass management. It does and always will matter - its physics. I am not saying a system sounds bad that is comprised of smaller drivers, but it will not have the same dynamics of a system with larger high-efficiency drivers. I was giving an example of a THX certified system that follows the bass management guidelines to the exact spec to get the cool THX logo. The only time driver size becomes irrelevant is when it comes to the high end frequencies where material composition and design becomes more important than size i.e. Be, Ti, ribbon, soft-dome, etc.

Until you demo a high-efficiency speaker in your room, you cannot make a non-biased statement. You are simply defending your system, which I am sure sounds fantastic! I don't mean any of my statements to be personal in nature. I am not saying mine is better than yours or anyone elses system. I am not saying JBL is the best. I am saying that speakers like QSC, JTR, Reaction Audio, JBL etc that use larger drivers that are >95db sensitive perform and sound better with movie and game soundtracks. I have been on both sides of the track and have heard the difference first hand in my room. There is a HUGE difference. I don't know what more I can say.

We can just agree to disagree and focus back on Atmos. I hope your not sour at me M8
My dog is demanding his walk so I will reply properly later. Just to say that of course I am not sour at you. I am having a good discussion here and I do take on board some of your points. Not defending my own setup at all - I am always prepared to discover a better way where/if one exists. But I have personally experimented with much larger speakers for the ceiling and there was no audible difference, kinda what I expected, because it doesn't take a huge driver to properly reproduce frequencies above 100Hz.

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post #33332 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 06:48 AM
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I get the timbre shift thingy. Especially obvious in Gravity. I watched it before I ran YPAO and properly calibrated my setup. Was not smooth at all and to be honest, it was outright distracting. Now, even with different ceiling speakers, eq'ing the the speakers made a HUGE difference in timbre shift. Although, I can tell if I really listen hard that my Fronts, Surrounds, Center and Ceiling Speakers are not timbre matched, they are close enough that its no longer a distraction.

Said all that to say that, for someone like you, NOT having them matched will get you committed faster!
Timbre shift in Gravity is horrible. My surrounds are DT, tops Niles and LCR Monitor Audio. The DT and Niles are not as bad of a mismatch; it's actually pretty good. But when things jump from front to the surround/tops the shift is extremely distracting. I can't say I've noticed it that much on any other movie, but I'm probably less sensitive or attuned to it than some of your ears. It's actually pretty seldom that a character in a movie travels 360 while talking, which is when it's most noticeable in Gravity. This is one of the primary reasons I'm in the process of slowly switching every speaker to the same manuf.

It is funny how this thread has progressed and we all have become more picky and more attuned to Atmos. Several months ago everyone was saying "oh the size of the Atmos speaker isn't really relevant". Also saying "oh timbre match isn't really a concern and your tops don't need to match everything else." Now the more movies we hear and the more experienced we become, the more we are touting larger drivers and timbre matching.

> or = 8" and timbre matched. That's my new line on Atmos. Nothing less.
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post #33333 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 07:02 AM
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It's actually pretty seldom that a character in a movie travels 360 while talking, which is when it's most noticeable in Gravity. This is one of the primary reasons I'm in the process of slowly switching every speaker to the same manuf.
Lets hope this changes. The Atmos demo really shows what the technology is capable of. I hope movies shift from just ambiance type sounds to true content in all channels. I was really disappointed in San Andreas. The helicopter overhead during the rescue could have been off the charts with the helicopter wash. I thought they missed a golden opportunity.
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post #33334 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 07:15 AM
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Lets hope this changes. The Atmos demo really shows what the technology is capable of. I hope movies shift from just ambiance type sounds to true content in all channels. I was really disappointed in San Andreas. The helicopter overhead during the rescue could have been off the charts with the helicopter wash. I thought they missed a golden opportunity.
I was just saying this!! I was like WTH! Are you serious come on mixers! That scene should have had you in Atmos Heaven!

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post #33335 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 07:59 AM
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When I heard ATMOS at my dealer's, I wasn't too impressed, but I had ordered my equipment before even hearing it because I'm always wanting to be up to the minute. Turns out that when I set it up at my house, it was the best thing I've done in the past 20 years when it comes to HT. It's absolutely incredible.

Last week I sold my ADP-590's and I asked the guy who purchased them if he heard ATMOS yet. He replied "no, it sounds like a gimmick like 3D". So I made him listen to my ATMOS demo disc and I kept hearing him go WOAH!!! A couple of days later I started getting e-mails from him asking about my equipment and such cause he wants to upgrade, and this is from a guy that told me he's been into HT for a long time. He had never heard anything quite like it.
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post #33336 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
When I heard ATMOS at my dealer's, I wasn't too impressed, but I had ordered my equipment before even hearing it because I'm always wanting to be up to the minute. Turns out that when I set it up at my house, it was the best thing I've done in the past 20 years when it comes to HT. It's absolutely incredible.

Last week I sold my ADP-590's and I asked the guy who purchased them if he heard ATMOS yet. He replied "no, it sounds like a gimmick like 3D". So I made him listen to my ATMOS demo disc and I kept hearing him go WOAH!!! A couple of days later I started getting e-mails from him asking about my equipment and such cause he wants to upgrade, and this is from a guy that told me he's been into HT for a long time. He had never heard anything quite like it.
Atmos is truly special and DSU is mind blowing! I just can't wrap my head around how the algorithms know what to put overhead. I watch Black Hawk Down the other night and it is a totally different movie. Amazing this technology is!
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post #33337 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 08:12 AM
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The whole basis of THX speakers and the invention of the subwoofer which led to the creation of THX is that speakers which are capable down to an 80Hz crossover (note, not down to 80Hz) when combined with a capable subwoofer, will reproduce the entire frequency range perfectly well and, usually, much better than a speaker which is rated to, say, 30Hz (note, rated) on its own or with a less capable subwoofer. Thus the notion that one needs speakers extending to significantly below 80hz, in a bass-managed system, is, IMO, misguided.

Unfortunately this is not necessarily the case since the distortion of the smaller driver will very likely be higher. You still want to cross over at 80 Hz to your subwoofer, but the distortion of the larger driver in the main channel above 80 Hz will usually be less than the distortion of the smaller driver. On the other hand, a properly designed main speaker with a 6-inch woofer should suffice in most situations.

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post #33338 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 08:22 AM
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Atmos is truly special and DSU is mind blowing! I just can't wrap my head around how the algorithms know what to put overhead. I watch Black Hawk Down the other night and it is a totally different movie. Amazing this technology is!
I know! I was just telling some of my coworkers this exact same thing the other day.

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post #33339 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 08:37 AM
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Last night I watched Baahulbali. This is a very entertaining, if at times somewhat cheesey, Indian adventure story. It is beautifully photographed and has some outstanding action scenes, culminating in the final battle which occupies 20-25 minutes towards the end of the movie. The score is outstanding IMO and beautifully matched to the on-screen scenes which it accompanies. And, being Bollywood, there are several terrific songs, one of which (at about the 1hr 53m point if my memory serves, BICBW) knocks the Bailando song on the Dolby demo disk, IMO, into a cocked hat for its use of Atmos). There are beautiful women, strong heros and baddies, great action scenes and an 'interesting' story, so what's not to like?

But the thing which will blow you away is the use of Atmos. The overheads are used extensively and to good effect. If you like the genre, it is a very good example of how Atmos can raise the level (literally) of a soundtrack.
is there any English spoken or is it's all Hindi: Dolby Atmos?? is that correct?

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post #33340 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:09 AM
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A poor speaker is a poor speaker. A poor sub is a poor sub. The fact of their existence doesn't invalidate bass-management, used with high quality speakers and subs. You have changed the discussion from one we were having (whether in a bass-managed system one needs surround speakers capable of digging quite deep) into one we weren't having (whether crap speakers and subs sound like crap).


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No, I saying that driver size matters in the 80 to 200 range. Your saying it doesnt and that it is irrelevant if you have proper bass management. It does and always will matter - its physics. I am not saying a system sounds bad that is comprised of smaller drivers, but it will not have the same dynamics of a system with larger high-efficiency drivers. I was giving an example of a THX certified system that follows the bass management guidelines to the exact spec to get the cool THX logo. The only time driver size becomes irrelevant is when it comes to the high end frequencies where material composition and design becomes more important than size i.e. Be, Ti, ribbon, soft-dome, etc.

Until you demo a high-efficiency speaker in your room, you cannot make a non-biased statement. You are simply defending your system, which I am sure sounds fantastic! I don't mean any of my statements to be personal in nature. I am not saying mine is better than yours or anyone elses system. I am not saying JBL is the best. I am saying that speakers like QSC, JTR, Reaction Audio, JBL etc that use larger drivers that are >95db sensitive perform and sound better with movie and game soundtracks. I have been on both sides of the track and have heard the difference first hand in my room. There is a HUGE difference. I don't know what more I can say.

We can just agree to disagree and focus back on Atmos. I hope your not sour at me M8

C'mon guys. I'm growing tired of this back and forth of mildly on topic discussion. Anymore and I'll have to report you and have your posts deleted.
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post #33341 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:13 AM
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is there any English spoken or is it's all Hindi: Dolby Atmos?? is that correct?
It's all in Hindi. You will just have to get over your aversion to subtitles In fact, the translations for the several songs are really cheesy, so you needn't bother looking at them while the songs are in progress (no need to understand the lyric, it is all obvious from context for each song). And did I mention scantily clad and really beautiful young women? IMO the disc is worth the money just for the half dozen songs - it's the first time I have heard music mixed for Atmos (I don't count Bailando as I hate everything about it (well, not the beautiful young women, obviously) and it was a very enjoyable experience. But I did like the movie too.

One amusing thing about the movie is that they show a big notice at the beginning saying no animals were harmed during the making of the movie and it's all CGI. Not content with that, every time an animal is in a dangerous position during the movie, they put a little CGI flag on the bottom left corner of the screen. Just so, like, you know that the 5,000 bull Baahubali is wrestling to the ground single-handed isn't real

Of course, hundreds of humans have their heads and limbs and extremities hacked off amidst tons of blood and gore - but they are real, no CGI warning for that. Just the bull and the horses.
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post #33342 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:17 AM
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Unfortunately this is not necessarily the case since the distortion of the smaller driver will very likely be higher.
Sometimes it will be an issue for sure. The solution to that is to get better speakers. Not bigger - better.

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You still want to cross over at 80 Hz to your subwoofer, but the distortion of the larger driver in the main channel above 80 Hz will usually be less than the distortion of the smaller driver.
Maybe. I assume you mean distortion that is audible? If it isn't audible it doesn't exist AFAIAC. Again, choose speakers which don't have audible distortion would be my suggestion there.

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On the other hand, a properly designed main speaker with a 6-inch woofer should suffice in most situations.
Indeed. And of course, these are surrounds - they are not working very hard at all. If you switch off the floor level speakers and listen to what the overheads are actually doing, even in DSU which works them harder than Atmos mostly, they ain't doing much.
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post #33343 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:19 AM
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C'mon guys. I'm growing tired of this back and forth of mildly on topic discussion. Anymore and I'll have to report you and have your posts deleted.
haha. The pent-up bitterness there is all but palpable, Scott. Not that I blame you.
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post #33344 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:29 AM
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I have read the posts on my ATMOS experience. The processor was an Integra DHC-80.6 and the speakers were all M&K. I felt the set up was fine, its just I left with the impression that a mid grade processor with ATMOS simply cannot sonically compete with a high end processor like a Classe that does not have ATMOS. That immersion factor of ATMOS is already easily heard on the Classe with the sound just being much more refined, cleaner and defined.
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post #33345 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:45 AM
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I have read the posts on my ATMOS experience. The processor was an Integra DHC-80.6 and the speakers were all M&K. I felt the set up was fine, its just I left with the impression that a mid grade processor with ATMOS simply cannot sonically compete with a high end processor like a Classe that does not have ATMOS. That immersion factor of ATMOS is already easily heard on the Classe with the sound just being much more refined, cleaner and defined.
well there you go. i think your conclusion/Impression was already made up. how can this gimmicky Atmos compare.
you can't come to a conclusion by sampling one set up
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post #33346 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 09:48 AM
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Atmos is truly special and DSU is mind blowing! I just can't wrap my head around how the algorithms know what to put overhead. I watch Black Hawk Down the other night and it is a totally different movie. Amazing this technology is!
Did you ever try putting speakers where Atmos has them now and just moving surround channel information there?

I have... I have even tried extraction of common or inverse information from side surrounds to put up to... And no matter what... Getting some extra speakers up there do make a quite noticable difference.

So, don't give ALL the credit to the new format - you could have had a bit part of the same experience already before...

Not saying there isn't any gains in the new formats, but we have to be realistic too or we'll delude ourselves where it's not applicable.

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post #33347 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 10:16 AM
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I have read the posts on my ATMOS experience. The processor was an Integra DHC-80.6 and the speakers were all M&K. I felt the set up was fine, its just I left with the impression that a mid grade processor with ATMOS simply cannot sonically compete with a high end processor like a Classe that does not have ATMOS. That immersion factor of ATMOS is already easily heard on the Classe with the sound just being much more refined, cleaner and defined.
Well @gbaby you have to look at this in one of several ways.
1) You have a bunch of Atmos experienced people telling you that you are missing something. This isn't to justify our investments. It's to change the level of immersion and elevation. We wouldn't be investing in it if it was not a dramatically perceived movie altering experience. It's not mass hysteria.
2) Numerous people are telling you the setup you heard was inferior. The mass consensus alone should tell you that not everyone has to be wrong so that only you can be right. You have stated a couple of things that lead to a bad demo conclusion. (Sounds "coming from the ceiling" for example). Plus, if your ears can hear such a minute, subjective sonic quality difference between a "mid-range AVR" and a Classe model....then you should be able to hear the enormous difference between 5.1 and Atmos even with your head shoved in a metal bucket. It's that dramatic. My dogs literally can hear the difference and chase at phantom bugs flying throughout the room (and they have significantly better hearing than humans---Atmos fools them!). It's really not subjective in the slightest and is a night and day difference when done correctly. I could come over to your place and move your L and R speakers by several inches and it would completely destroy your 2ch sound stage. Why can't you accept that an Atmos setup is just as finicky and requires a thought out installation?
3) The only way a sound will come from above you....is if the speaker is ABOVE you or reflected. Sound stage elevation to a certain degree is surely possible with 2 ch. I've heard this with Martin Logan CLS2z. Objects coming from above you and all around you are a completely different matter. The level of granularity of elevation, which Atmos provides, is just not physically possible in a 2 channel system.
4) You can listen to 2 ch music only and forget about Atmos. If you're not a movie/HT enthusiasts, then yeah Atmos doesn't have to be your cup of tea. We can all agree to disagree on whether it's great for music all day long. That is 100% preference and entirely subjective. Atmos doesn't have to be for everyone.
5) Several people who have GORGEOUS high-end HT setups have come over to my little low-cost HT. They all walked in saying they have heard Atmos before and were only mildly intrigued. They weren't running out to jump on the Atmos band wagon. But after leaving my HT, they all wanted to jump in and invest and upgrade immediately---Because the immersion is off the charts. And these people have dedicated HTs that are some of the nicest found here on AVS.

So you choose to learn from all of this and accept that the whole world isn't wrong just to prove your love for Classe. You can reasonably come to the conclusion that you have never heard Atmos, if you're open-minded and can accept that one demo at one improperly setup location does not demonstrate the technology. Or you can choose to be obstinate to solely defend your stance. Personally, if so many people were telling me how much I was missing then I would be running out to find a proper demo to experience it myself and learn.
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post #33348 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 10:22 AM
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....
you can't come to a conclusion by sampling one set up
Perhaps.
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post #33349 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 10:30 AM
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Did you ever try putting speakers where Atmos has them now and just moving surround channel information there?

I have... I have even tried extraction of common or inverse information from side surrounds to put up to... And no matter what... Getting some extra speakers up there do make a quite noticable difference.

So, don't give ALL the credit to the new format - you could have had a bit part of the same experience already before...

Not saying there isn't any gains in the new formats, but we have to be realistic too or we'll delude ourselves where it's not applicable.
Have I ever put my surrounds and rears over my head...Hmmm...nope. I guess it would be interesting but seems kinda weird...No action on sides or in the back of you but all overhead and F/C/R.

I can definitely tell you that what is being played overhead in DSU is different than whats coming out of my sides and surrounds. I know this because for 4 days straight, I played the same 8 clips over and over and over and over and over on a loop with different speakers plugged in and others not and so on. I really wanted to see if the overheads were actually playing different sound or they were just reproducing what was coming out of the surrounds and rears.

Saying all that, I didn't think once to set my system up for a regular 7.1 and switch the banana plugs so that TF was Surround and TR were Rears...I will do this just so when someone else ask me the same question, I would have an answer not based on speculation but on my own personal experience.

Given that, IMHO, DSU has upped the bar just as 5.1 did to 2.1, It would be very interesting to see that all we had to do was put our surrounds and rears in the ceilings and we would have had 3D audio long time ago as you have eluded to.

Question, since it is confirmed that height presence channels have made a huge impact on audio (home), how would you rate a 7.1.4 system over a 7.1 system with the surround and rears overhead on a scale from 1 to 10?
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post #33350 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:24 AM
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post #33351 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Yesterday, I heard ATMOS for the first time at a high end audio/video dealer. It was a 5.2.4 system. I listened to both the ATMOS demo, which contained exerts of movies and music. I subsequently listened to a 5.1 setup with a high end processor. The executive summary is that Kal Rubinson's comment about music with ATMOS having an inappropriate ambiance was simply too kind. It was bazaar and outright gimmicky. Also, I was not impressed with the sound effects from the height channels as you can get a similar or equally satisfying effect with your rear channels elevated over the seating area in the rear. In addition, it was the quality of the signal from the high end system that trumped the signal from the height channels. The lesson I learned is that the sound one gets from a 5.1 or 7.1 system from a high end processor is a better purchase than a ATMOS sound from a mediocre processor. For me ATMOS is another gimmick for movie addicts and has no benefits for music. It is something I can live without. You can too. Invest in good electronics not gimmicks.
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
As someone who has there surround channels mounted high and felt the same before a going to a 7.1.4 setup from 5.1, its not even on the same level when it comes to the placement of objects bed channels are now just as they have been always bed channels! I'm not sure why you still feel that these 5.1 or 7.1 processor's from any manufacture and regardless of cost can even begin to match the placement of discrete objects is beyond me but hey! what ever floats your boat man! This is the new SOTA and my mediocre 8802 is a dream of a pre/pro (2/ch included) and has me scrambling for what to watch next in Atmos or DSU!

Gimmick for you? cool! For me its the best thing that's happened to home cinema experience in 20yrs
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Yeah, strictly movies here too. It's almost like you dropped in to stir the pot and cause arguments. Fact of the matter is that either you don't watch movies, the dealer you were at had a horrible setup (which I'd bet on from the sounds of it), or you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe a combo of all three likely. The fact that a dealer was running 5.2.4, a lesser system for sales purposes, infers something stinks there.

I can't argue with hi-fi music junkies not liking Atmos. I use to run extremely high-end systems for music only and laughed at 5.1 surround sound when it first came out. My staging was insanely great and costly and it abhorred me to think of additional speakers destroying that stage. I'm sure many people will not see the value of Atmos for music. I personally have thrown on music for testing and played with the DSU. I enjoyed choirs and strings being lifted and elevated in a well setup Atmos system. It's not overly processed and very subtilely uses the heights. Basically it sounds like 2.1 with much more depth and phenomenal elevation. But it's not for everyone.

To infer it's a gimmick for movies is demonstrative of poor setup and misunderstanding (or deafness) of the total immersion that's taking place. That's directly comparable to saying that 5.1 for movies is a gimmick and 2.1 is just fine.

We can agree to disagree on music with Atmos. But with movies....it's really ignorant and misinformed to say "gimmicky".
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Sounds like they had crappy mismatched height speakers that were of different timbre from the base level and perhaps the system was poorly calibrated so the customer "can hear the heights". Similar to video displays put in torch mode to gain attention. I've never heard any actual distinct sound from my height channels with music, and as has been mentioned, properly calibrated the heights only lift the soundstage. I have to get in a chair and put my ears to the height channels to even be sure anything is coming out of them. It's a very cool and subtle effect.

Now I'll give you that some content puts too much into the base level surrounds. But on the flip side, some songs have just the right amount of subtle content in the surrounds that makes the soundstage just wrap along the sides of the room a bit more.

For movies I agree that timbre matched surrounds and heights to the mains is not as important, but for music I think it makes a big difference. I think you heard a low end Atmos implementation at a high end store.
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It doesn't sound like you heard a well designed system. Dolby Atmos and DTS: X can sound superb for both movies and music with quality immersive mixing techniques.
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I have no doubt, that the Classe and an Atmos AVR or prepro are subjectively going to have different appeal to hifi music enthusiasts. I use to run Counterpoint and Levinson, so I've been there and I get it.

It's apples to oranges though. But it's also pennies to dollars in regards to price! If someone is running the same speakers in the same room with music only and Classe, they're going to like it more than the Japanese AV choices. Key differentiator in that statement being "V"----video. If I saw someone's "hifi" music listening room and they had an Onkyo AVR with multi-thousand $, top of line stereo speakers, I would probably chuckle inside. Likewise if I walked into a dedicated HT and they had a Classe preamp running only 2.1 for movies, I'd chuckle too. I really don't get how anyone could draw a comparison there.

What's interesting is that the comment is made without detail of WHAT the setup actually was. That's shady and suspect....D, M, Onk, Pioneer, Yamaha, Anthem? Speakers in ceiling or DAE? The rest of the system and the source? Lot of omissions there....
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Originally Posted by virtualrain View Post
Was the demo you're referring to the Bailando music video? It's the only music track I know of re-mixed for Atmos. If so, that's a fun mix but by no means an accurate reproduction of the song or a live performance of it. I wouldn't base your opinion of Atmos rendering on that particular track. And if it wasn't Bailando, what music track was it? I'd like to track it down.




I'm not sure why you guys are coming down so hard on this guy... Do you know what he heard? There's only one Atmos music track I'm aware of, and that's the Bailando music video on the Dolby Demo Disc. As I said above, that track is a fun mix, but not a good one for assessing Atmos. Anyone wanting a good demo of Atmos on a music track is not going to come away pleased with Bailando, especially any kind of audiophile since that mix is whimsical and has no basis in reality. So it could very well be that the system was perfectly fine, but the demo track selected was horrible, leading to what sounds like an accurate assessment.
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Originally Posted by pasender91 View Post
Well, he never said it was Bailando he was referring to when talking about the music he listened to ...
More likely, he listened to other music with Dolby Surround engaged.
The result in this context is a mixed bag, some people like it, some other do not ...

For pure stereo listening, the fact that a system has Atmos or not is irrelevant towards the quality of the result that is achieved, it is possible to have a poor or good setup from a non-atmos or an atmos setup, it is more about room acoustics and speaker quality....
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Originally Posted by Xeneize12 View Post
I respect you opinion... but for me, going 7.2.4 with in-ceiling speakers had a very similar impact to that when I went from 2.1 to 5.1....

3D may be gimmick ... Atmos is certainly a game changer.... IMHO.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So "high end" that he didn't go for 7.2.4 then?



Well you can't in fact. So I am guessing you heard a poor setup.



You sure have swallowed the "high end" Koolaid. Electronics hardly matter at all these days. The route to good sound lies in the room, the speakers, the subs and the placement of them in the room. Putting your "high end" processor into a system will make very little, if any, audible difference. Of course, it will make a very big difference in one way: to the bank balance of the "high end" dealer



Given that Atmos was designed as a system for the playback of movies, I can’t really understand your criticism of it. It is like criticising your toaster because it makes poor ice cream.

Atmos is only a "gimmick" if you also believe that 5.1 and 7.1 were "gimmicks". But sure, it is not for you, and on that we can agree.
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The local audio/video high-end dealer here in San Antonio has a demo room. Atmos sounded anemic. I wouldn't base your final assumption on one demo. I am not surprised or alarmed you were not WOWed, but just because they are a boutique shop doesn't mean they have a proper setup. I am glad I went forward even though the only demo I heard was meh....

It is not a gimmick by far.
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
When I heard ATMOS at my dealer's, I wasn't too impressed, but I had ordered my equipment before even hearing it because I'm always wanting to be up to the minute. Turns out that when I set it up at my house, it was the best thing I've done in the past 20 years when it comes to HT. It's absolutely incredible.

Last week I sold my ADP-590's and I asked the guy who purchased them if he heard ATMOS yet. He replied "no, it sounds like a gimmick like 3D". So I made him listen to my ATMOS demo disc and I kept hearing him go WOAH!!! A couple of days later I started getting e-mails from him asking about my equipment and such cause he wants to upgrade, and this is from a guy that told me he's been into HT for a long time. He had never heard anything quite like it.
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Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Atmos is truly special and DSU is mind blowing! I just can't wrap my head around how the algorithms know what to put overhead. I watch Black Hawk Down the other night and it is a totally different movie. Amazing this technology is!
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
I know! I was just telling some of my coworkers this exact same thing the other day.
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
I have read the posts on my ATMOS experience. The processor was an Integra DHC-80.6 and the speakers were all M&K. I felt the set up was fine, its just I left with the impression that a mid grade processor with ATMOS simply cannot sonically compete with a high end processor like a Classe that does not have ATMOS. That immersion factor of ATMOS is already easily heard on the Classe with the sound just being much more refined, cleaner and defined.
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
well there you go. i think your conclusion/Impression was already made up. how can this gimmicky Atmos compare.
you can't come to a conclusion by sampling one set up
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Well @gbaby you have to look at this in one of several ways.
1) You have a bunch of Atmos experienced people telling you that you are missing something. This isn't to justify our investments. It's to change the level of immersion and elevation. We wouldn't be investing in it if it was not a dramatically perceived movie altering experience. It's not mass hysteria.
2) Numerous people are telling you the setup you heard was inferior. The mass consensus alone should tell you that not everyone has to be wrong so that only you can be right. You have stated a couple of things that lead to a bad demo conclusion. (Sounds "coming from the ceiling" for example). Plus, if your ears can hear such a minute, subjective sonic quality difference between a "mid-range AVR" and a Classe model....then you should be able to hear the enormous difference between 5.1 and Atmos even with your head shoved in a metal bucket. It's that dramatic. My dogs literally can hear the difference and chase at phantom bugs flying throughout the room (and they have significantly better hearing than humans---Atmos fools them!). It's really not subjective in the slightest and is a night and day difference when done correctly. I could come over to your place and move your L and R speakers by several inches and it would completely destroy your 2ch sound stage. Why can't you accept that an Atmos setup is just as finicky and requires a thought out installation?
3) The only way a sound will come from above you....is if the speaker is ABOVE you or reflected. Sound stage elevation to a certain degree is surely possible with 2 ch. I've heard this with Martin Logan CLS2z. Objects coming from above you and all around you are a completely different matter. The level of granularity of elevation, which Atmos provides, is just not physically possible in a 2 channel system.
4) You can listen to 2 ch music only and forget about Atmos. If you're not a movie/HT enthusiasts, then yeah Atmos doesn't have to be your cup of tea. We can all agree to disagree on whether it's great for music all day long. That is 100% preference and entirely subjective. Atmos doesn't have to be for everyone.
5) Several people who have GORGEOUS high-end HT setups have come over to my little low-cost HT. They all walked in saying they have heard Atmos before and were only mildly intrigued. They weren't running out to jump on the Atmos band wagon. But after leaving my HT, they all wanted to jump in and invest and upgrade immediately---Because the immersion is off the charts. And these people have dedicated HTs that are some of the nicest found here on AVS.

So you choose to learn from all of this and accept that the whole world isn't wrong just to prove your love for Classe. You can reasonably come to the conclusion that you have never heard Atmos, if you're open-minded and can accept that one demo at one improperly setup location does not demonstrate the technology. Or you can choose to be obstinate to solely defend your stance. Personally, if so many people were telling me how much I was missing then I would be running out to find a proper demo to experience it myself and learn.
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Perhaps.
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post #33352 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Well ............

So you choose to learn from all of this and accept that the whole world isn't wrong just to prove your love for Classe. You can reasonably come to the conclusion that you have never heard Atmos, if you're open-minded and can accept that one demo at one improperly setup location does not demonstrate the technology. Or you can choose to be obstinate to solely defend your stance. Personally, if so many people were telling me how much I was missing then I would be running out to find a proper demo to experience it myself and learn.
Actually, I am a Bryston SP3 man. But, while in the store, I could not resist the temptation to compare the Atmos/Integra set up to the Classe/legacy surround setup. I could hear what Atmos offered in the Integra, its just that the superior signal from the Classe outweighed the benefits of the extra ceiling speakers from the Integra. Regardless, I think this would be an interesting subject for an audio magazine to write on, i.e., a comparison of the sound from a mid range Atmos processor vs. that of the sound from a legacy surround high end processor.
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post #33353 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I have two 24" Deep Sea Sound subs @ 4000 watts each. I don't run any of my speakers at full range. My JBLs are not handling down to 30hz, they are crossed in the receiver at 80hz. Why do you have Seaton's and all that power? Any sub that can produce down to 20hz will meet the THX spec right? It is because the Seaton has larger, better drivers and more power. It can produce its frequency range better than a smaller sub. This is the same principle. Mid bass content extends up to 200hz. Does the 80 to 200 range not matter? Larger, high-efficiency speakers will produce this more dynamically than smaller less efficient speakers. Here is a THX certified system. Will this system sound as good as your system? Oh course not. Why? It has smaller, inferior drivers across the entire freq range from subs to the tweets.
Spoiler!
I've resisted getting pulled into this argument because I outgrew "my <whatever> is bigger than your <whatever>" arguments many years ago. However, I disagree with some of the points that you've made, and in the interest of productive discussion, I'm willing to step into the fray...

I would imagine that you used the above example of the Logitech THX-certified computer speakers in the photo above as an absurd example to make your point, but you opened the door. The speaker system is likely the Logitech Z906, which is intended and designed to be used on a computer, not in a home theater. It is certified per the THX multimedia system specification, which is not the same as the three THX certifications that actually apply to home theater applications.

I haven't heard these speakers, and I would imagine that you haven't either, so all we have to go on is the specifications. My guess is that this is a pretty nice speaker system... for a computer environment, where the listener is probably within 2-3 feet of every speaker. No one here would likely support using this speaker system in anything bigger than a small dorm room for watching movies.

Since we're on the topic of THX certification, let's follow that path. While some may feel that THX is no longer relevant, and a common argument amongst its detractors are the that shiny logo just adds to the cost, and "high end" products can be better and don't have the logo, the fact remains that the certifications were designed to meet minimum standards. Those standards were used to define a level of performance, which began as one certification and grew into the Ultra (the original spec) and Select (intended for smaller rooms) levels, which now appear to have spawned a third (THX I/S Plus Systems) for smaller rooms yet. While people can take issue with the THX approach to speaker design (dipolar surrounds, front speakers with limited vertical dispersion, etc.), I've not ever seen a qualified criticism of the hard specifications that THX uses for performance standards.

One of the most highly regarded home theater speakers for watching movies is the M&K S100B and its generational siblings:

Three tweeters and two 5.25" drivers. Rated at 77 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB. Their S-5000 was used by Dolby Labs to design Dolby Digital (same size drivers I believe, rated at 72 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB). The company followed with the S-150THX and from that design, the Ultra2-certified MK Sound S-300, which is rated at 60 Hz – 22 kHz ±3dB.

Through all these years, the size of the drivers hasn't changed. These speakers are designed to be used in conjunction with subwoofers that are appropriate for the application. They aren't trying to reach to 30 Hz, and the subs aren't designed to reach to 200 Hz. Why would you want that (in either end of the spectrum)? Let the drivers specialize at what they do best and don't make them perform at too wide a frequency range. As long as the crossovers are handled properly, there isn't a problem with such an approach.

I found several references to what is required by THX Ultra2 certification. Here is a portion of a 2003 interview of Rick Dean, Director of Technical Business Development at THX Digital Works:
Quote:
THX Ultra2 is a 7.1-speaker extension of the original Ultra spec. It’s designed to work well with multi-channel music and movie presentations--and soon, video games--playing up to reference levels in rooms of 3,000 cubic feet or larger. Each certification requires components to produce high volume levels and disperse sound in specific ways with low levels of distortion.
Reference level is defined on the THX web site:
Quote:
What is Reference Level? Manufacturing receivers and speakers that can achieve THX Reference Level is no simple task. It requires a tremendous amount of power to drive an audio system effortlessly without clipping or distorting. To ensure the audio products can reach this peak performance, THX developed a set of standards as part of its THX Ultra2, THX Select2 and I/S Plus certifications.
  • Experience Studio Clarity: THX Certified Receivers reproduce studio Reference Level, 85dB SPL with 20dB of headroom.
  • Reference Level for your Room: THX Ultra2 Plus, THX Select2 Plus and THX I/S Plus certification categories deliver Reference Level performance in your specific room size.
  • Distortion-free Playback: THX Certified Receivers and speakers are designed to recreate Reference Level with minimal distortion.
So, all of this begs the question: If all the speakers in your system can achieve reference levels with minimal distortion across the entire frequency range ("THX Certified Subwoofers must extend to 20Hz (-6dB) to handle the very highest bass levels with ease"), why does it matter what size the driver in any particular speaker is?

If the difference between a 5.25" driver and an 8" or 10" driver in an overhead speaker is so incredibly stunning, it must surely be able to be measured, no? As long as each driver is not distorting, and there is a proper subwoofer and crossover to handle the transition between that speaker and the subwoofer, the end result should be the same (performance-wise). I welcome the chance to review such data if it is available.

There's something to be said for "bigger is better" and some might say that size matters in certain situations, but there comes a point when enough is enough, and anything more is just for show. If large drivers makes one feel better about their system, more power to them. But, in a properly configured and tuned system, I do not agree that larger drivers in floor or overhead speakers will make a difference.
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post #33354 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:53 AM
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Actually, I am a Bryston SP3 man. But, while in the store, I could not resist the temptation to compare the Atmos/Integra set up to the Classe/legacy surround setup. I could hear what Atmos offered in the Integra, its just that the superior signal from the Classe outweighed the benefits of the extra ceiling speakers from the Integra. Regardless, I think this would be an interesting subject for an audio magazine to write on, i.e., a comparison of the sound from a mid range Atmos processor vs. that of the sound from a legacy surround high end processor.
I think you are missing the point. They are not comparable. That's like comparing a truck to a sedan. They serve different purposes imo. One's for moving "stuff" one for moving people. Or maybe a better example would be comparing a full range speaker to a stand alone sub.

You're trying to compare an Atmos AV unit (primarily intended for HT use though it can play music obviously) to a 2ch preamp (primarily intended for music only).

My personal preference on music only 2ch preamps is vacuum tube. Give me a unit without a 12AT7 in it for 2ch music and I'll laugh at it. But that's preference and subjective. But that's also a radical sound difference that anyone can hear. Comparing 2 discrete fet based units is really splitting hairs and subjective as well but on a much less obvious/audible level.
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post #33355 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 11:53 AM
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No, I saying that driver size matters in the 80 to 200 range. Your saying it doesnt and that it is irrelevant if you have proper bass management. It does and always will matter - its physics. I am not saying a system sounds bad that is comprised of smaller drivers, but it will not have the same dynamics of a system with larger high-efficiency drivers. I was giving an example of a THX certified system that follows the bass management guidelines to the exact spec to get the cool THX logo. The only time driver size becomes irrelevant is when it comes to the high end frequencies where material composition and design becomes more important than size i.e. Be, Ti, ribbon, soft-dome, etc.

Until you demo a high-efficiency speaker in your room, you cannot make a non-biased statement. You are simply defending your system, which I am sure sounds fantastic! I don't mean any of my statements to be personal in nature. I am not saying mine is better than yours or anyone elses system. I am not saying JBL is the best. I am saying that speakers like QSC, JTR, Reaction Audio, JBL etc that use larger drivers that are >95db sensitive perform and sound better with movie and game soundtracks. I have been on both sides of the track and have heard the difference first hand in my room. There is a HUGE difference. I don't know what more I can say.

We can just agree to disagree and focus back on Atmos. I hope your not sour at me M8
You see now there's the rub! "Perform and sound better " is highly subjective even regarding performance due to application and purpose. I should go on the record as saying I'm not a fan of Horn Loaded speakers even though I've heard some that are not as bad as times past but due respect the fact that they indeed do excel in efficiency and sheer output. If one is trying to replicate that Cinema sound and home they can certainly be a great choice but I'm after Fidelity for movies and music and no I'm not saying that the speakers you listed above are not capable of fidelity just not the sound characteristics all may be looking for
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post #33356 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 12:00 PM
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@BigScreen the horse is dead. Everyone enjoy whatever speakers you have. No need to discuss it further in the Atmos thread. There are plenty of threads on people who have migrated to high-efficiency speakers vs traditional.

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You see now there's the rub! "Perform and sound better " is highly subjective even regarding performance due to application and purpose. I should go on the record as saying I'm not a fan of Horn Loaded speakers even though I've heard some that are not as bad as times past but due respect the fact that they indeed do excel in efficiency and sheer output. If one is trying to replicate that Cinema sound and home they can certainly be a great choice but I'm after Fidelity for movies and music and no I'm not saying that the speakers you listed above are not capable of fidelity just not the sound characteristics all may be looking for
I agree that sound is subjective. Yeah, the JBL M2 (horn) is definitely known for it's poor fidelity industry wide Most horns people have heard are the entry level Klipsch, which can be a harsh and fatiguing speaker to a lot of people. That stereotype is widely held and was my actual thoughts for many years after owning Klipsch RFs. It was my biggest fear when I bought the 4722s without being able to hear and demo them.

Last post for me on the topic, we can discuss in other threads. I want to avoid making any more folk's ignore lists.
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post #33357 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 12:23 PM
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@BigScreen the horse is dead. Everyone enjoy whatever speakers you have. No need to discuss it further in the Atmos thread. There are plenty of threads on people who have migrated to high-efficiency speakers vs traditional.



I agree that sound is subjective. Yeah, the JBL M2 (horn) is definitely known for it's poor fidelity industry wide Most horns people have heard are the entry level Klipsch, which can be a harsh and fatiguing speaker to a lot of people. That stereotype is widely held and was my actual thoughts for many years after owning Klipsch RFs. It was my biggest fear when I bought the 4722s without being able to hear and demo them.

Last post for me on the topic, we can discuss in other threads. I want to avoid making any more folk's ignore lists.
Indeed back to Atmos
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post #33358 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 12:30 PM
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You see now there's the rub! "Perform and sound better " is highly subjective even regarding performance due to application and purpose. I should go on the record as saying I'm not a fan of Horn Loaded speakers even though I've heard some that are not as bad as times past but due respect the fact that they indeed do excel in efficiency and sheer output. If one is trying to replicate that Cinema sound and home they can certainly be a great choice but I'm after Fidelity for movies and music and no I'm not saying that the speakers you listed above are not capable of fidelity just not the sound characteristics all may be looking for
Agree with everything you said on horn speakers. I've come around on them in the last couple of weeks after hearing some local HTs that use them. World of difference compared to what I remember hearing in the 90s.

Curiously enough on driver sizes, there is a major law of diminishing returns. I actually wrote my thesis on driver sizes and types. Focused on electrostats. Mind you this was all in the early years of surround sound in the mid 90s.

I've always been an advocate of nothing bigger than a 10". Strictly because I thought they had more umph. I'm a hard rock guy so never got into the deep rap bass. Come to find out when I studied the mass, inertia, momentum and transient responses of various types and sizes of drivers, a sweet spot was found in the 8-10" range (It was more specific like 8.75" max or something, 20 years ago so I don't recall). The larger the driver got, the "sloppier" it got. After all objects in rest want to stay at rest and in motion want to stay in motion. Transients are much worse on larger drivers as the continue oscillating with momentum and getting them to start moving in the first place is problematic as well. They truly do distort sound at some point the larger they get. So I was never a fan of 12" drivers. The near zero mass of electrostats virtually eliminates this but also produced all sorts of inefficiencies. However, in the HT world we are seeing much lower frequencies than in the early 90s. This makes it unavoidable not to have large woofers for movie enjoyment. So my thesis is probably 20 years out of date!
It's a trade off no matter what. There is no perfect driver and everyone just enjoy what you have or want.

To bring it back to Atmos though, I still think most of you would be surprised by the amount of LF going through the ceiling. You really should unplug your subs and listen sometime. Case and point is Dracula, 5E and HG. I know it's hard to intentionally watch a movie with your subs powered off but you will learn something from it. I had a lot of bass emanating from my ICs. Can a 6" handle it? Well, I didn't measure the freq from my 7" drivers so maybe. But I can say definitively that my 4.5 to 6 to 7" jumps have made substantial improvements in my Atmos sound field.
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post #33359 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post
I've resisted getting pulled into this argument because I outgrew "my <whatever> is bigger than your <whatever>" arguments many years ago. However, I disagree with some of the points that you've made, and in the interest of productive discussion, I'm willing to step into the fray...

I would imagine that you used the above example of the Logitech THX-certified computer speakers in the photo above as an absurd example to make your point, but you opened the door. The speaker system is likely the Logitech Z906, which is intended and designed to be used on a computer, not in a home theater. It is certified per the THX multimedia system specification, which is not the same as the three THX certifications that actually apply to home theater applications.

I haven't heard these speakers, and I would imagine that you haven't either, so all we have to go on is the specifications. My guess is that this is a pretty nice speaker system... for a computer environment, where the listener is probably within 2-3 feet of every speaker. No one here would likely support using this speaker system in anything bigger than a small dorm room for watching movies.

Since we're on the topic of THX certification, let's follow that path. While some may feel that THX is no longer relevant, and a common argument amongst its detractors are the that shiny logo just adds to the cost, and "high end" products can be better and don't have the logo, the fact remains that the certifications were designed to meet minimum standards. Those standards were used to define a level of performance, which began as one certification and grew into the Ultra (the original spec) and Select (intended for smaller rooms) levels, which now appear to have spawned a third (THX I/S Plus Systems) for smaller rooms yet. While people can take issue with the THX approach to speaker design (dipolar surrounds, front speakers with limited vertical dispersion, etc.), I've not ever seen a qualified criticism of the hard specifications that THX uses for performance standards.

One of the most highly regarded home theater speakers for watching movies is the M&K S100B and its generational siblings:

Three tweeters and two 5.25" drivers. Rated at 77 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB. Their S-5000 was used by Dolby Labs to design Dolby Digital (same size drivers I believe, rated at 72 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB). The company followed with the S-150THX and from that design, the Ultra2-certified MK Sound S-300, which is rated at 60 Hz – 22 kHz ±3dB.

Through all these years, the size of the drivers hasn't changed. These speakers are designed to be used in conjunction with subwoofers that are appropriate for the application. They aren't trying to reach to 30 Hz, and the subs aren't designed to reach to 200 Hz. Why would you want that (in either end of the spectrum)? Let the drivers specialize at what they do best and don't make them perform at too wide a frequency range. As long as the crossovers are handled properly, there isn't a problem with such an approach.

I found several references to what is required by THX Ultra2 certification. Here is a portion of a 2003 interview of Rick Dean, Director of Technical Business Development at THX Digital Works:

Reference level is defined on the THX web site:


So, all of this begs the question: If all the speakers in your system can achieve reference levels with minimal distortion across the entire frequency range ("THX Certified Subwoofers must extend to 20Hz (-6dB) to handle the very highest bass levels with ease"), why does it matter what size the driver in any particular speaker is?

If the difference between a 5.25" driver and an 8" or 10" driver in an overhead speaker is so incredibly stunning, it must surely be able to be measured, no? As long as each driver is not distorting, and there is a proper subwoofer and crossover to handle the transition between that speaker and the subwoofer, the end result should be the same (performance-wise). I welcome the chance to review such data if it is available.

There's something to be said for "bigger is better" and some might say that size matters in certain situations, but there comes a point when enough is enough, and anything more is just for show. If large drivers makes one feel better about their system, more power to them. But, in a properly configured and tuned system, I do not agree that larger drivers in floor or overhead speakers will make a difference.
Thanks for that. You saved me a reply to Molon and also expressed the points better than I would have done. Needless to say, it's +1 to the lot, from me
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post #33360 of 46434 Old 11-16-2015, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post
I've resisted getting pulled into this argument because I outgrew "my <whatever> is bigger than your <whatever>" arguments many years ago. However, I disagree with some of the points that you've made, and in the interest of productive discussion, I'm willing to step into the fray...

I would imagine that you used the above example of the Logitech THX-certified computer speakers in the photo above as an absurd example to make your point, but you opened the door. The speaker system is likely the Logitech Z906, which is intended and designed to be used on a computer, not in a home theater. It is certified per the THX multimedia system specification, which is not the same as the three THX certifications that actually apply to home theater applications.

I haven't heard these speakers, and I would imagine that you haven't either, so all we have to go on is the specifications. My guess is that this is a pretty nice speaker system... for a computer environment, where the listener is probably within 2-3 feet of every speaker. No one here would likely support using this speaker system in anything bigger than a small dorm room for watching movies.

Since we're on the topic of THX certification, let's follow that path. While some may feel that THX is no longer relevant, and a common argument amongst its detractors are the that shiny logo just adds to the cost, and "high end" products can be better and don't have the logo, the fact remains that the certifications were designed to meet minimum standards. Those standards were used to define a level of performance, which began as one certification and grew into the Ultra (the original spec) and Select (intended for smaller rooms) levels, which now appear to have spawned a third (THX I/S Plus Systems) for smaller rooms yet. While people can take issue with the THX approach to speaker design (dipolar surrounds, front speakers with limited vertical dispersion, etc.), I've not ever seen a qualified criticism of the hard specifications that THX uses for performance standards.

One of the most highly regarded home theater speakers for watching movies is the M&K S100B and its generational siblings:

Three tweeters and two 5.25" drivers. Rated at 77 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB. Their S-5000 was used by Dolby Labs to design Dolby Digital (same size drivers I believe, rated at 72 Hz - 20 KHz ± 2 dB). The company followed with the S-150THX and from that design, the Ultra2-certified MK Sound S-300, which is rated at 60 Hz – 22 kHz ±3dB.

Through all these years, the size of the drivers hasn't changed. These speakers are designed to be used in conjunction with subwoofers that are appropriate for the application. They aren't trying to reach to 30 Hz, and the subs aren't designed to reach to 200 Hz. Why would you want that (in either end of the spectrum)? Let the drivers specialize at what they do best and don't make them perform at too wide a frequency range. As long as the crossovers are handled properly, there isn't a problem with such an approach.

I found several references to what is required by THX Ultra2 certification. Here is a portion of a 2003 interview of Rick Dean, Director of Technical Business Development at THX Digital Works:

Reference level is defined on the THX web site:


So, all of this begs the question: If all the speakers in your system can achieve reference levels with minimal distortion across the entire frequency range ("THX Certified Subwoofers must extend to 20Hz (-6dB) to handle the very highest bass levels with ease"), why does it matter what size the driver in any particular speaker is?

If the difference between a 5.25" driver and an 8" or 10" driver in an overhead speaker is so incredibly stunning, it must surely be able to be measured, no? As long as each driver is not distorting, and there is a proper subwoofer and crossover to handle the transition between that speaker and the subwoofer, the end result should be the same (performance-wise). I welcome the chance to review such data if it is available.

There's something to be said for "bigger is better" and some might say that size matters in certain situations, but there comes a point when enough is enough, and anything more is just for show. If large drivers makes one feel better about their system, more power to them. But, in a properly configured and tuned system, I do not agree that larger drivers in floor or overhead speakers will make a difference.

The MK 300 system is used by THX as their reference system.


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