The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1115 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #33421 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post
I guess I'm stuck on the idea that as long as the system as a whole can reproduce the entire frequency range (near-)flat at reference levels without distortion, how they go about doing it is largely a matter of choice by the manufacturer and a preference on the characteristic of the high range (tweeter/horn) that is most pleasing to the buyer.
Pretty much my own view too. I tried to explain this to Scott a while back but it fell on stony ground. If the speaker does what you describe, another speaker won’t do it better, or differently. Some seem to believe that, to use the dreaded car analogy, a car which can do 200 mph is somehow better than a car which can do 100 mph, even though at 70 mph, the speed they drive at, the two cars perform identically.

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I'm fine with the fact that some people prefer horns and some prefer traditional domes, but preference is different than measurable performance, and that's what got this conversation started in the first place. I would welcome the chance to audition these fine horn-based speakers that you guys are happy with. Maybe it would make me a believer, too.
Quite. If someone can show me some measurements which support the view that my S150s don't deliver what their bigger <insert brand of choice> can do, then I will accept it as game, set and match for them.
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post #33422 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've been sitting this one out, but tough to do that when it's clear many have an uninformed view of horn speakers.
If we want to discuss accuracy and fidelity, then how can I not discuss the M2?
Thanks for your intervention Gooddoc. If I am following correctly, these speakers would be several thousand dollars each? I have to say I would expect a speaker which costs that sort of money to be very special, and from your description and chart, it is. HST, I do think that when discussing speakers comparatively, it is important to compare like for like, pricewise, or an entirely new, additional dimension enters the equation. Nonetheless, your post has caused me to revise my earlier sweeping statement
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post #33423 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've been sitting this one out, but tough to do that when it's clear many have an uninformed view of horn speakers.
If we want to discuss accuracy and fidelity, then how can I not discuss the M2?
Interesting. I've just sent a mail to the distributor over here to find out if there's a pair anywhere close that I could go listen to.

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post #33424 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thanks for your intervention Gooddoc. If I am following correctly, these speakers would be several thousand dollars each? I have to say I would expect a speaker which costs that sort of money to be very special, and from your description and chart, it is. HST, I do think that when discussing speakers comparatively, it is important to compare like for like, pricewise, or an entirely new, additional dimension enters the equation. Nonetheless, your post has caused me to revise my earlier sweeping statement
Well, ahem....it depends on your definition of "several"

My point was simply that horns are not inherently low fidelity.
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post #33425 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Well, ahem....it depends on your definition of "several"

My point was simply that horns are not inherently low fidelity.
Anybody who's interested should check out the LSR308. Very high value.
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post #33426 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Well, ahem....it depends on your definition of "several"
I had a quick look and here in the UK they sell for £7,500 each. Usually our £ price is the equivalent of the US $ price

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My point was simply that horns are not inherently low fidelity.
And, thanks to you and various other members, I have revised my view. But not to the extent of paying over $20,000 for three LCR speakers At that price level, TBH I'd expect any speakers I would buy to be stellar.
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post #33427 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 03:49 AM
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post #33428 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 03:56 AM
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It isn't all about size.
A correctly specced Steinway Model M system will comfortably outperform a JBL Pro system IMO.
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post #33429 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by richmagnus View Post
I've heard JBL synthesis several times, I've also heard several JBL pro cinema systems. never said JBL were a PA system. Very good in fact.

My comment was regarding my personal preference.

Have you heard a properly set up MK 300 system?
In fact a Steinway system would be my personal choice hands down.


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No, I have never heard them. I am sure they are superb speakers because they have always gotten rave reviews. There are speakers that are great in all line-ups. I was just giving some personal opinions on my experiences. They are not to be taken as gospel but rather to give people options as they are reevaluating Atmos speakers and potentially replacing bi-poles with direct radiating to support this new format.
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post #33430 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 04:30 AM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
No, I have never heard them. I am sure they are superb speakers because they have always gotten rave reviews. There are speakers that great in all line-ups. I was just giving some personal opinions on my experiences. They are not to be taken as gospel but rather to give people options as they are reevaluating Atmos speakers and potentially replacing bi-poles with direct radiating to support this new format.
I know and it's good to discuss all the options, even if some are way too expensive!!!

I'm a Tripole man myself. Ha ha


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post #33431 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 04:34 AM
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Group hug - Horns aren't necessarily bad like they used to be, but they still aren't for everyone. Sound will always be subjective. We are all friends who enjoy this stupidly, addictive, expensive hobby and are all passionate about our systems. @Gooddoc has more money than me, and I am wrought with envy for his M2s. Keith @kbarnes701 loves the 90s', and I bet Vanilla Ice is in his Nakamichi tape deck as we speak @audiofan1 hasn't determined if he likes me or hates me

Back to Atmos and collectively defending this new amazing format.
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post #33432 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Group hug - Horns aren't necessarily bad like they used to be, but they still aren't for everyone. Sound will always be subjective. We are all friends who enjoy this stupidly, addictive, expensive hobby and are all passionate about our systems. @GOD doc has more money than me, and I am wrought with envy for his M2s. Keith @kbarnes701 loves the 90s', and I bet Vanilla Ice is in his Nakamichi tape deck as we speak @audiofan1 hasn't determined if he likes me or hates me

Back to Atmos and collectively defending this new amazing format.
Haha. Good post. I have, since the 'discussion' been researching some of the horn speakers mentioned and I have come to the conclusion that my former view was outdated. I especially like some of the horn speakers I have looked at, including all of the JBLs (I have always liked JBLs anyway) and those inexpensive powered JBLs Markus recommended look like extraordinary value for money. The M2s of course... well they cost the equivalent here of 10 grand (dollars) each, so I’d expect them to be very special. In fact, I'd expect them to reproduce my movies, fetch my beer, wash my car and attend to my 'male needs' at that price
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post #33433 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Haha. Good post. I have, since the 'discussion' been researching some of the horn speakers mentioned and I have come to the conclusion that my former view was outdated. I especially like some of the horn speakers I have looked at, including all of the JBLs (I have always liked JBLs anyway) and those inexpensive powered JBLs Markus recommended look like extraordinary value for money. The M2s of course... well they cost the equivalent here of 10 grand (dollars) each, so I’d expect them to be very special. In fact, I'd expect them to reproduce my movies, fetch my beer, wash my car and attend to my 'male needs' at that price
Yeah, the LSR308 that Markus recommended have gotten pretty much 5 stars on Amazon, Sweetwater, Full Compass, and anywhere you look. I am going to get a pair for my computer. If you like smaller footprint, the RA and PSA 10" speakers have a cult following too. I have heard nothing but rave reviews on both of those lines.
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post #33434 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 05:40 AM
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This discussion reminds me of a quote from the book The Shack

“Most emotions are responses to perception—what you think is true about a given situation. If your perception is false, then your emotional response to it will be false too. So check your perceptions, and beyond that check the truthfulness of your paradigms—what you believe. Just because you believe something firmly doesn’t make it true. Be willing to reexamine what you believe. The more you live in the truth, the more your emotions will help you see clearly…”
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post #33435 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I believe reference is made to an experiment where you would put some surround info up (inverted or not) while at the same time leaving the ear-level surrounds active as well.

The past 12 months (still in my pre-Atmos phase) I am doing a similar thing with my LCR channels (lifting and adding L/R out-of-phase info to the front heights) and the effect on the sound is impressive.
Well, DSU is kinda doing that. We know that the information is there, but it is interesting how DSU is extracting certain sounds and frequencies and putting them overhead while at the same time taking those sound out of the the surrounds and sides. It shouldn't be the same as leaving the sounds in the surrounds and sides and copying them to ceiling position and reversing phase, adding delays, eq'ing etc...

DSU and the other various DSPs are truly adding dimension to the listening space. We all know its just math but still, I am not the one to sit in front of a chalk board and figure out long equations while gazing at the stars and sipping tea. I will gladly pay for this technolgy that someone else has already figured out and give them full credit for their accomplishments.

Dolby Atmos and DSU is Amazing and there is nothing anyone can tell me to convince me otherwise.

BTW, I also was blown away by 5.1 but no so much by 7.1 but was impressed with wides although at the time, I did not know that is what I was impressed by. Heard it, but didn't understand the tech.

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post #33436 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 05:58 AM
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Can someone please direct me to the "Speakers" thread?
I came here to learn about speakers but all anyone is discussing is Dolby Atmos.

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #33437 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post
Can someone please direct me to the "Speakers" thread?
I came here to learn about speakers but all anyone is discussing is Dolby Atmos.
Well played sir.....

Too bad that team in your avatar doesn't play as well as you
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post #33438 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post
Can someone please direct me to the "Speakers" thread?
I came here to learn about speakers but all anyone is discussing is Dolby Atmos.
And my coffee comes out through my nose. HAHA
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post #33439 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post
Can someone please direct me to the "Speakers" thread?
I came here to learn about speakers but all anyone is discussing is Dolby Atmos.
As much as I would like to agree with you, the speaker discussion is important as we all try to figure out what is best for producing the best Atmos experience, especially up-top now that we are seeing more titles coming out. Angles, speakers, equipment, which disk is best or DSU v Auro - pick your poison
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post #33440 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
As much as I would like to agree with you, the speaker discussion is important as we all try to figure out what is best for producing the best Atmos experience, especially up-top now that we are seeing more titles coming out. Angles, speakers, equipment, which disk is best or DSU v Auro - pick your poison
I am sure he and others have enjoyed the speaker banter (some are probably annoyed too). He was just being facetious about the whole thing. Humor is good for the soul.
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post #33441 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:17 AM
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As much as I would like to agree with you, the speaker discussion is important as we all try to figure out what is best for producing the best Atmos experience, especially up-top now that we are seeing more titles coming out. Angles, speakers, equipment, which disk is best or DSU v Auro - pick your poison
In this case a separated thread should be created for ATMOS speaker discussion.
This thread is base on
ATMOS content
User movies reviews
ATMOS sound placement

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post #33442 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yeah, the LSR308 that Markus recommended have gotten pretty much 5 stars on Amazon, Sweetwater, Full Compass, and anywhere you look. I am going to get a pair for my computer. If you like smaller footprint, the RA and PSA 10" speakers have a cult following too. I have heard nothing but rave reviews on both of those lines.
I can speak to the sound quality of the PSA high efficiency horn speakers since I own the PSA 110's. I used to stay away from horn speakers because they always sounded bad to me. But I took a chance on the PSA speakers and fell in love with them, they are by far and away the best speakers I've ever owned. So now my view regarding horn speakers is you need to choose carefully, but there are some wonderful examples of high efficiency horn speakers out there.

Sorry to be off topic…back to Atmos!

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post #33443 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
My understanding of how VBAP works is that the listener infers the direction of a [dynamic] object--from the MLP--based on the relative SPL strength of the object's audio emissions delivered by [probably] three speakers that "encircle" an imaginary line from the MLP which extends through the object's current position. The object specific content delivered through each of the three speakers presumably shares a common XO--otherwise one speaker alone delivering dominant mid-bass would tend to influence the perceived position of the object 'inappropriately'...?!

This suggests to me that the object rendering engine should use one single object content XO for all dynamic objects--above the highest measured|selected XO among all Middle and Top Layer speakers--as the specific speakers that will be used to render any one dynamic object are presumably unknown in advance. In contrast, the subset of speakers involved in the rendering of a static object might be determinable on first use, so that an object content XO specific to that one static object could be computed. In any event, take care how you modify the XOs Audyssey has determined for your speakers!


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Thanks. I was thinking that if the crossovers were different it could influence the object position in the room. So far I have 1 suggestion to use the same crossover all the way around and another user suggesting that it doesn't matter. If anyone else has any thoughts I'd like to hear them.

Thanks
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post #33444 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
In this case a separated thread should be created for ATMOS speaker discussion.
This thread is base on
ATMOS content
User movies reviews
ATMOS sound placement
Just curious, how do you accomplish ATMOS sound placement without a speaker? So we can discuss how close the surround speakers should be to the ceiling speakers or what angle is best for the Atmos speakers or if four speakers are better than two or what exactly is a "wide" speaker in the context of Atmos or if a bi-pole speaker is better than a direct radiating speaker, but we need to stop talking about the actual speakers themselves.

OK, lets talk about San Andreas and Mad Max - again

My comment is done in humor, we did get off topic a bit.

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post #33445 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post
Can someone please direct me to the "Speakers" thread?
I came here to learn about speakers but all anyone is discussing is Dolby Atmos.
It is sort of relevant since Atmos does require speakers. IIRC this discussion started off about the appropriate size of driver that one needed for Atmos overhead speakers. Since then it seems to have 'developed'

My take is still this: until/when/if mixers start to put as much content in the overheads as they put into the LCR set (probably never), one needs overhead speakers which are up to the task of reproducing, cleanly and without audible distortion, to the SPLs required, what content is actually sent to them. Since currently one of the main complaints about Atmos is that "hardly anything" is sent to them, and since with DSU it is mostly fairly low-level ambience, it seems to me that fairly small speakers of good quality will suffice, in a bass-managed system, with good sub(s). I am using Tannoy Di5 DCs to very good effect, and I have experimented with replacing them with the larger Tannoy Di6DCs but heard no difference with the latter at all, so went back to the smaller, neater, cheaper Di5s (crossed at 100hz). I currently have no intention of changing these speakers.
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post #33446 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
In this case a separated thread should be created for ATMOS speaker discussion.
This thread is base on
ATMOS content
User movies reviews
ATMOS sound placement
It is? The thread title just says the thread is about Atmos for home theaters. No restrictions of the sort you mention. The type of speaker needed for Atmos is hugely relevant IMO.
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post #33447 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Hello Audiofan! Out of respect for you I just wanted to explain that my comments which confused you were intended to show I am an independent thinker who is not influenced by other folks opinions. Regardless, enjoy your Atmos.
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post #33448 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Hello Audiofan! Out of respect for you I just wanted to explain that my comments which confused you were intended to show I am an independent thinker who is not influenced by other folks opinions. Regardless, enjoy your Atmos.
@audiofan1

Let me translate @gbaby comment for you "Hello Audiofan! Out of respect for you I just wanted to explain my comments which confused you, and explain how your ears and equipment are inferior to mine, were intended to show I am an independent thinker which means I am close minded and unwilling to accept new SoTA technologies who is not influenced by other folks opinions because their opinions are wrong and I wouldn't want to expand my horizons and experiences by hearing something new implemented correctly. Regardless, enjoy your Atmos gimmick

HA HA.....razzing you @gbaby . Just having some fun.
Seriously though, did you only listen to your last purchased speakers or preamp etc after only listening to it one singular time? Without evaluating multiple alternatives in order to make the most informed decision? Or did you just go out and immediately buy the first thing you saw and heard? Independent thinking is only beneficial through exhaustive evaluation of all viable alternatives. Otherwise it's short-sighted. I've always hated horn speakers...until I heard some over the last several weeks and I admitted I was wrong and I benefitted by doing so.....(See how I brought the speaker argument back into this? That was smoooth. HA HA)
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Last edited by Stoked21; 11-17-2015 at 07:23 AM. Reason: typo
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post #33449 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I can speak to the sound quality of the PSA high efficiency horn speakers since I own the PSA 110's. I used to stay away from horn speakers because they always sounded bad to me. But I took a chance on the PSA speakers and fell in love with them, they are by far and away the best speakers I've ever owned. So now my view regarding horn speakers is you need to choose carefully, but there are some wonderful examples of high efficiency horn speakers out there.

Sorry to be off topic…back to Atmos!
Since the thread is going this way I will chime in as well haha.

I have had the same experience as Hop. I was always afraid of horns since I had only ever heard klipsch speakers, but when I read about how dynamic they can be when done properly I decided to roll the dice on some Reaction Audio CX-10's (high efficiency coax, point source). I am so thankful to the people on this forum that led me to the HE designs because these speakers create the most immersive movie atmosphere I have ever experienced, residential or commercial. They also have a certain "sparkle" that has re-energized my waning interest in music, which has been a pleasant surprise. For the first time I am completely happy with my speakers and no longer pine for something more.

When I went to THE Show Newport this past May I expected this to change when I heard some of the best speakers in the world, but surprisingly it did not. The only setup I heard at that show that produced the same level of immersion was one employing JTR 212's, another horn speaker.

Basically my point is that in my experience, if a dynamic/immersive movie atmosphere is what you are chasing, I have not heard anything that does it better (or as well even) than a properly designed HE speaker.

Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 11-17-2015 at 07:59 AM.
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post #33450 of 46494 Old 11-17-2015, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
@gbaby

Regardless of @bguzman misguided comment, people here are not trying to bully you or bad mouth your equipment and choices. No one has said anything derogatory. On the contrary most of us have agreed that DSU for music is 100% preference. What we are trying to do is educate you on Atmos and help you with our obtained knowledge (especially as it pertains to movies). No one is professing to be a "know it all" or an absolute expert in all things Atmos. What people are trying to tell you is that you didn't hear Atmos correctly due to setup. If you want to make your own decision, everyone is encouraging you to make it based on facts and multiple listens as opposed to on just one shotty demo. You'll do yourself an injustice otherwise and make a sweeping judgement on a technology that likely will blow your mind if you give it a fair listen. Even on a modestly designed system.
I appreciated bguzman's comments. And, some of the comments did make me feel the way the folks feel about this thread on Audioholics. But, I will say that I feel the Atmos setup I heard was proper, its just it underwhelmed me. It sounds too gimmicky to me. Its not the same substantial improvement one gets from stereo to pro logic. Its a subtle improvement that left me underwhelmed. That is my subjective impression.
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