The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 130 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #3871 of 42768 Old 08-12-2014, 10:55 PM
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We can only hope.

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post #3872 of 42768 Old 08-12-2014, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
These sound great on my computer speakers, of course w/o Atmos.

Then I had a sinking feeling - what if, similar to previous latest/greatest formats, the average SQ is of the media is several cuts less than what is possible, with the potential only realized on demo's like these and the relatively small amount of really well mastered material.

Now that I think about it, why would it be any different for Atmos?
As with any sound mix, it's up to the prowess of the engineers and whether or not they take full advantage of the audio tools available.

Some Atmos mixes will astound, others will probably be "meh." I'm hoping more of the former than the latter. Perhaps even some further tweaking can be done to cinema mixes while being prepped for home theater usage to improve upon the experience. As everyone is acutely aware, sound mixing is sometimes a last minute event and everyone involved, no matter how talented, cannot always perfect commercial mixes within their allotted time.

On another note, I would love for some high end CEDIA product demos to show off more than just the typical first generation 7.1.4 layout. Hopefully, Trinnov and others will be partnering with speaker companies to show what home Atmos is really capable of doing. And that retail Blu-ray discs will be used for said demos.

Anyone in the know on what other companies' booths to target at CEDIA that might really put on an impressive show?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #3873 of 42768 Old 08-12-2014, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
We can only hope.
Like any other movie soundtrack; some (mostly few) will be a total blast, and the others,...a bust.
And each one of us will have a different, more or less, interpretation/experience from each and every one.

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post #3874 of 42768 Old 08-12-2014, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
As with any sound mix, it's up to the prowess of the engineers and whether or not they take full advantage of the audio tools available.

Some Atmos mixes will astound, others will probably be "meh." I'm hoping more of the former than the latter. Perhaps even some further tweaking can be done to cinema mixes while being prepped for home theater usage to improve upon the experience. As everyone is acutely aware, sound mixing is sometimes a last minute event and everyone involved, no matter how talented, cannot always perfect commercial mixes within their allotted time.


On another note, I would love for some high end CEDIA product demos to show off more than just the typical first generation 7.1.4 layout. Hopefully, Trinnov and others will be partnering with speaker companies to show what home Atmos is really capable of doing. And that retail Blu-ray discs will be used for said demos.

Anyone in the know on what other companies' booths to target at CEDIA that might really put on an impressive show?
You said it very well Dan; tres realiste.

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post #3875 of 42768 Old 08-12-2014, 11:32 PM
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I was in the last group to get the home theater demo. The room was not large but not small. Something of 25ft long, maybe 16-18ft wide and about 8ft tall. There were six seats right in the middle with a large table with computers and other various tech in the back. Erm, I didn't take a good long look at that stuff admittedly. (actually I did get some video of the room. I'll see about an upload but it's not that great of a video. ) The room was equiped with a 50" lcd tv of sorts with a full 7.1.4 system both with "Atmos-equipped" and actual overhead surrounds. Also there was a soundbar that was covered. TBA, I'm sure. So I sat down in the front row left seat. I had to let Gary Reber take the center seat. He's got a magazine to run, you know! I'm just some dude on the internetz.

So at this demo was the Atmos trailers from before but now in an HT environment. Played back in Atmos they sounded very convincing. Also played back was the same scene from Into Darkness but we had a chance to hear it in conventional 7.1 and again in Atmos. All the floor level speakers were quite low. Right at ear level. The difference was very noticable and in my opinion clearly improved in Atmos. The next and very interesting demo was a couple of sound only demos put together for demo purposes, obviously. The first was simply an object of a helicopter that would circle around the room. We had this played back in 7.1 then in Atmos with actual ceiling speakers and then again in Atmos but with the upfiring reflective method. All versions sounded different. The 7.1 had an excellent sense of being surrounded by an encircling helicopter but not like it was above me. Then when played back with the ceiling mounted speakers I could clearly hear that it was above me and encircling. Cool! Now... heh, the really neat part. Last was it played back with the upfiring speakers and boy was I impressed! I was not ready for it to sound that good. (to be clear I have not been fluffed with any incentive. This is purely me speaking from the heart) It really did sound like there were speakers up above and the image was very stable. I had expected it to be much more diffuse and not very localizable but I could always tell if it was in front, behind and to the left or right. Very, very impressive.

Last up was another demo of similar playback but this time it was a recording of a thunderstorm. During this demo they had toggled between real and reflective heights and seriously could not tell the difference. Wow.


Just noticed how much time it took to type this so I'm going to wrap this up. Gotta close up shop.

I can't enough how eye (ear?) opening this experience was. It was really special.

I will come back to chime in if you guys are interested. I'm sure there is more left to mention about the day.

Thanks a bunch for an excellent write!

Q: Can you describe if and how the HT was acoustically treated? Which materials were used for ceiling, walls and floor?
Q: What kind of speakers were there used, specifically the ceiling mounts?

Slowly building a 9.2.6 HT: ◤SEOS-24◥ BMS 4594ND/dual Beyma 18P80Nd [tri-amped LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [6 Surrounds] • Beta 10CX [6 Atmos] • LLT Mal-x 18" subs [2] • miniDSP 4x10HD [2] • XPR-5 • MM8003 [2] • XMC-1 • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU

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post #3876 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 12:03 AM
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I don't know why you to have to see something else than what I said here. It's ok, I get that sometimes...
You edited your original post from: I don't know why to have to see something else than what I said here. It's ok, I get that sometimes....

Getting closer.

Try this: I don't know why you have to see something else other than what I said here. It's ok, I get that sometimes...

Eh?

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post #3877 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I asked what happens when there are more speakers than channel beds. For example, someone sets up a Trinnov with 24 speakers around them. How many speakers get bed information? Is it only 7? Which means that the other 17 would be used just for objects? "We'll get back to you on that."
Guess you hit the mark, only 7 (or 9 if you count in the 2 height speaker channels) will be used for beds.

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post #3878 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Guess you hit the mark, only 7 (or 9 if you count in the 2 height speaker channels) will be used for beds.
He didn't/couldn't answer my question, so I don't know how beds address multiple speakers.

Suppose I had 3 rows of seats and each row had a speaker at its left side. Where does the left surround bed go? Only one of those 3 speakers or all 3?

Suppose I install all 10 possible overhead speakers: 5 left heights and 5 right heights. Will sounds in the left height bed light up all 5 left height speakers?

Those were the type of questions I was hoping would have gotten answered yesterday, but didn't.

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post #3879 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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He didn't/couldn't answer my question, so I don't know how beds address multiple speakers.

Suppose I had 3 rows of seats and each row had a speaker at its left side. Where does the left surround bed go? Only one of those 3 speakers or all 3?

Suppose I install all 10 possible overhead speakers: 5 left heights and 5 right heights. Will sounds in the left height bed light up all 5 left height speakers?

Those were the type of questions I was hoping would have gotten answered yesterday, but didn't.
How is it handled in the dubbing stage?

Markus

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post #3880 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the pictures of the Demo room.
I tried to get the widest shots possible...hope this works for everyone.
the name for the picture is the location view of the room..ie. front..fronttop.

Enjoy
RayJr
Thanks for the speaker pictures! Looks like they used some acoustic foam around the fullrange unit to mitigate detrimental effects due to the recessed mounting. The Pioneer speakers don't have to deal with that issue. On the other hand the Dolby speakers look identical to normal speakers once the grill is on. Probably exactly what they wanted to achieve.

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post #3881 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:11 AM
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How is it handled in the dubbing stage?
Cinemas define which speakers comprise the arrays. Signals destined for the arrays use all of them at the same time (same as current arrays). In Sanjay's example of 10 height speakers, each row of 5 would play a ceiling bed channel, and the objects would pan through individually. Same for the 3-speaker "mini arrays" on each side.

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post #3882 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
How is it handled in the dubbing stage?
All the bed channels outside the screen (sides, rears, heights) are reproduced by arrays. IF that's what they're doing at home, then my questions should have been easy to answer instead of "I'll get back to you".

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post #3883 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:22 AM - Thread Starter
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^
Let's hope they don't adopt that practice for the home. We'd get comb filter effects. The more speakers the more detrimental this would be.

Markus

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post #3884 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post
Here are the pictures of the Demo room.

Hmmm. Makes me wonder when a coaxial ceiling speaker, pointed straight down, is also toed in (which makes no difference at all). Now, if the speakers were tilted toward the MLP, that would make sense. Would the reported Atmos speaker advantage remain were that the case? Why handicap the ceiling speakers?

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post #3885 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
We'd get comb filter effects. The more speakers the more detrimental this would be.
Just like a real cinema. But there are ways to minimize the combing with decorrelation.

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post #3886 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 02:39 AM - Thread Starter
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^
Yes, just like a real cinema

Markus

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post #3887 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 04:21 AM
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Here are the pictures of the Demo room...RayJr
Thanks, Ray!

I also don't understand the positioning/toe in on the ceilings since they are pointed straight down. Did Dolby say if these coaxial drivers or 2 ways?
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post #3888 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 05:04 AM
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Hi,

I take this opportunity to thank here Marc, Sanjay, Scott and Ray for they very interesting feed back concerning the Atmos experience one can get and singularly through the up-firing Atmos speakers.

In fact all this mirrors my own impressions after attending to a "simple" 5.1.2 Onkyo Dolby Atmos presentation held mid July in Paris (details and feed-back here (in French)), in an non specifically treated adverse acoustic environment, with add-on up-firing Onkyo SKH410 speakers... and even though I was more than skeptic in the beginning... I ended up being impressed by the end result.

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Hmmm. Makes me wonder when a coaxial ceiling speaker, pointed straight down, is also toed in (which makes no difference at all). Now, if the speakers were tilted toward the MLP, that would make sense. Would the reported Atmos speaker advantage remain were that the case? Why handicap the ceiling speakers?
Now what would be the result with those same Onkyo SKH410 add-on Atmos speakers (the ones of the above Paris presentation) if they were to be used not in an up-firing context/situation, but in an (adequately angled) on ceiling context/situation, eventually an array of these. For example a 7.1.4 installation where the .4 would consisting of 4 or eventually 8 of these small cheap speakers located on the ceiling.

In my opinion this would be an interesting experience to make, as these speakers are specifically tailored for Atmos, why couldn't they be used as ceiling speakers?

Roger what would be your opinion? Merci.

Hugo
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post #3889 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 05:40 AM
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that explains the expense because here the 636 is $599 and the speakers are $240 so if your getting both that looks to be a good deal.
Yes would just love to get some impressions on if they are worth anything together with the 636 before I buy it, if its useless then I would rather wait for it to be on sale and then not get the speakers which I think have ****** WAF
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post #3890 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Let's hope they don't adopt that practice for the home. We'd get comb filter effects. The more speakers the more detrimental this would be.
Depends on whether the speaker is made to be used that way or not, normal speakers yes. Those made to create a wavefront together, no/not to the same degree.

I'm using three per side in both my theaters and I have not regretted it for a second.

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post #3891 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Depends on whether the speaker is made to be used that way or not, normal speakers yes. Those made to create a wavefront together, no/not to the same degree.

I'm using three per side in both my theaters and I have not regretted it for a second.
Speaker (drivers) have to be placed within 1/4 distance of the wavelength they are emitting in order to prevent destructive interference. Here are some max. distances for different frequencies:

100Hz = 84cm = 33"
1000Hz = 8.6cm = 3.3"
10000Hz = 0.86cm = 0.33"

Markus

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post #3892 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 07:01 AM
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Speaker (drivers) have to be placed within 1/4 distance of the wavelength they are emitting in order to prevent destructive interference. Here are some max. distances for different frequencies:

100Hz = 84cm = 33"
1000Hz = 8.6cm = 3.3"
10000Hz = 0.86cm = 0.33"
That's no news. But I'm not discussing somehing that has anything close to normal radiation patterns towards listener. The designer of them would prefer is surround was just handled by four channels and using four wavefronts, so that all seats would have the same experience. (left, right, back, top) He's doing initial pondering now whether you can re-code Atmos into such channels for his customers to get something even better.

Heck, when I showed my surrounds here the first time, people thought I had them mounted too low and upside down!

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #3893 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 07:02 AM
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http://www.audioprointernational.com...07331#after-ad
http://www.dreamsound.pl/index.php

Not sure if the above has been posted before. It's about Dreamsound of Poland installing Atmos to produce film sound.

The article states it's 280 square foot size, but their own website states it is 86 square meters, which is almost 1,000 square foot. Seems a lot closer to what's in the picture.

I was interested in the speakers they used. It's all JBL-pro:

Front: ScreenArray 3731-T three-way tri-amplified loudspeakers and 4642 dual-18-inch subwoofers
Rest: JBL SCS 12 and SCS 8 coaxial loudspeakers are mounted on the ceiling, side and rear walls, augmented by two JBL 4181 18-inch subwoofers.

I looked up those JBL SCS8. They seem excellent for ceiling mounting as Atmos speakers and have an unsurpassed 120° x 120° dispersion. Maybe the pro-look (about 1 cubic foot sized) is not for everyone, but I like it. MSRP is $475. Thoughts?

Product link JBL:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...scs-8#Overview
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post #3894 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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That's no news. But I'm not discussing somehing that has anything close to normal radiation patterns towards listener. The designer of them would prefer is surround was just handled by four channels and using four wavefronts, so that all seats would have the same experience. (left, right, back, top) He's doing initial pondering now whether you can re-code Atmos into such channels for his customers to get something even better.

Heck, when I showed my surrounds here the first time, people thought I had them mounted too low and upside down!
What kind of speaker would that be?

Markus

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post #3895 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 08:10 AM
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I looked up those JBL SCS8. They seem excellent for ceiling mounting as Atmos speakers and have an unsurpassed 120° x 120° dispersion. Maybe the pro-look (about 1 cubic foot sized) is not for everyone, but I like it. MSRP is $475. Thoughts?
I had looked these up myself weeks ago...someone here posted about them (Roger?). Very industrial metal boxes but while the design looks very appropriate, I think practically, they'd be too large for 8' ish ceilings. You'd lose almost 15" height with the bracket, probably placing speaker height too close to tall tower or planar speakers for optimum separation. I think they'd work very well for a tall ceiling if WAF wasn't an issue.

With the Tannoy Di5 DC, you'd lose only half that distance or less. I think that may make them more suitable for tall fronts or short ceilings.

But the common feature with the Tannoy Di is coaxial driver. The fact that coaxial drivers are used as overheads in professional cinema Atmos lends lots of credence for use in home Atmos.

Roger, Keith & Sanjay are in good company with the pros and Andrew Jones, in suggesting the coaxial Tannoy

Steve

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post #3896 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 08:51 AM
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When you look up to the speakers from the main listening position they should appear upright.
can you spin the tweeter and the woofer in the speaker box so the drivers are firing as if they were in an upright position. what i'm trying to say if the speaker box is horizontal on the ceiling by taking the tweeter and woofer and spin each 45 degrees wouldn't that be the same as mounting them vertical.

DEN Atmos Samsung UN65KS8000 Roku Ultra Onkyo TX-NR 747 5.2.2 Atmos/DTS:X. Polk Audio OWM3 Speakers / top middle on Ceiling / Directv Genie / Samsung UBD-K8500 Blu-Ray Player / 26 UHD Blu-Rays Living Room Atmos Samsung PN60E8000+SEK2000 / Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers, MICCA M-8S FH on wall /TM in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs. BEDROOM Samsung 55JS8500 using tv speakers for now
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post #3897 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Why would the performance of the upmixer depend on the format of the source material? In other words, I don't understand your implication that the new Dolby Surround upmixer would work any differently with DTS-encoded source material than it would with Dolby-encoded source material. In fact, given two identical mixes, but one encoded using Dolby TrueHD and the other encoded using DTS-HD MA, I'd expect the Dolby Surround upmixer to produce identical-sounding results.
i would think the same thing

DEN Atmos Samsung UN65KS8000 Roku Ultra Onkyo TX-NR 747 5.2.2 Atmos/DTS:X. Polk Audio OWM3 Speakers / top middle on Ceiling / Directv Genie / Samsung UBD-K8500 Blu-Ray Player / 26 UHD Blu-Rays Living Room Atmos Samsung PN60E8000+SEK2000 / Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers, MICCA M-8S FH on wall /TM in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs. BEDROOM Samsung 55JS8500 using tv speakers for now
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post #3898 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I had looked these up myself weeks ago...someone here posted about them (Roger?). Very industrial metal boxes but while the design looks very appropriate, I think practically, they'd be too large for 8' ish ceilings. You'd lose almost 15" height with the bracket, probably placing speaker height too close to tall tower or planar speakers for optimum separation. I think they'd work very well for a tall ceiling if WAF wasn't an issue.

With the Tannoy Di5 DC, you'd lose only half that distance or less. I think that may make them more suitable for tall fronts or short ceilings.

But the common feature with the Tannoy Di is coaxial driver. The fact that coaxial drivers are used as overheads in professional cinema Atmos lends lots of credence for use in home Atmos.

Roger, Keith & Sanjay are in good company with the pros and Andrew Jones, in suggesting the coaxial Tannoy
My ceilings are 8'8" and the space is also quite large. WAF has no influence in that room (only in the rest of the house).

The Tannoy's are also a very good choice, but I prefer bigger, in line with the rest. I might consider the 6" or 8" version of the Tannoy. The 8" are similarly priced as the SCS8 and are a little bit narrower shaped. The SCS8 have the edge for dispersion, though: 120° vs 90° fro the Tannoy's.
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post #3899 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
can you spin the tweeter and the woofer in the speaker box so the drivers are firing as if they were in an upright position. what i'm trying to say if the speaker box is horizontal on the ceiling by taking the tweeter and woofer and spin each 45 degrees wouldn't that be the same as mounting them vertical.
Destructive interference effects are caused by the distance between the tweeter and woofer so rotating just the single drivers doesn't change this.

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"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #3900 of 42768 Old 08-13-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Thanks a bunch for an excellent write!

Q: Can you describe if and how the HT was acoustically treated? Which materials were used for ceiling, walls and floor?
Q: What kind of speakers were there used, specifically the ceiling mounts?
Thank you, Erwin.

I can't say for sure but it appeared to be little to no actual treatment(s) in the HT demo room. Which I really think is the point. This is supposed to be a typical room and not a 'best case scenario' type setup, I believe. Take a look at Ray's pics and see.

Not sure what speakers were used. When asked they said that they were, "white label" speakers. They can't say as they don't want to show favoritism towards a brand name.


I wanted to touch on the experience in the HT room again. All of us were talking about the height surrounds after the meet and how much we were really impressed by the 'Atmos-equipped' version. I think it is safe to say that we all preferred having some form of heights as opposed to no heights even though we never really talked about that. I know I did. However we did talk some about why we think we preferred them. Given also that we had very little demo material to go off of. The comment was that we liked how the content up above seemed much larger than just coming from a speaker up above. Don't think 'it was too pinpoint'. I'm not sure that is how I would describe it but it did seem (with the helicopter audio demo) that it sounded like it was circling the MLP with a smaller overhead circle that stayed within the boundaries of the overhead layout. The reflected version sounded like the entire ceiling was producing the sound. I thought about it much later that day and pondered.... what if the speakers up above had simply been moved back in each appropriate direction. Push each speaker further back into their respective corners. Not all the way though. Suffice to say and you can see in the pictures that the actual ceiling speakers were not that far spread out. I think this is key. We preferred the reflective type because it sounded bigger, more natural, not overly diffuse either (surprisingly). Having said that it does speak volumes of how good the reflective type implemented heights worked and worked very, very well. I'm still shocked how good.

That being said it will be great to finally get a chance to play with this stuff at home and playback content that is not just Atmos demo stuff. Hopefully we will hear about the initial roll out of content soon. Maybe at CEDIA.
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