The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 143 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4261 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I still believe that ceiling mounted speakers might do a better job if aimed carefully rather than merely pointed downwards, but maybe that's just me unable to shake my bias.
Ceiling speakers should be better IF the (re-)mix supports it. If not then reflected sound can result in a more realistic presentation. Same reason why some like omnis for playback of stereo recordings...

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post #4262 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 01:59 PM
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Article posted August 14,2014....Is this the DTS answer? Nothing posted at DTS website however..!
http://widescreenreview.com/news_detail.php?id=20166
Sadly, I really don't see anything new there. Just as for Dolby Atmos, we need to see a list of CE manufacturers incorporating their decoders and a list of source material which uses them. I would not be a bit surprised if there's a lot of arm-twisting going on in the background by both Dolby and DTS in order to encourage studios to specify their respective encoding technologies and/or providing the software and training for the mixing companies. Of course, they're all going to be under NDAs until the last possible minute.

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post #4263 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:03 PM
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This report is a counterpart to my original report from the first demo I was kindly invited to at Dolby's London HQ.

The original report can be seen by clicking here.

Dolby Atmos For The Home - A Second 'Ears-on' Experience at Dolby's London HQ.

I was privileged to be invited to a second demonstration of Atmos For The Home on Wednesday, 13th August, at Dolby's magnificent Soho Square HQ in London.

<snipped>

And talking of content, the most I could squeeze out of JJ with regard to Blurays was that we could expect content to be available “in time for Christmas” and probably before. Similarly, when I asked what the very first Dolby Bluray release would be, JJ commented candidly that he simply didn't know. JJ pointed out that many of the movies which have currently been released in Atmos will not be available at launch because of practical and commercial considerations involved in the disc authoring process.

<snipped>
I am pro home Atmos and and patiently waiting to purchase an Atmos AVR and Atmos speakers. However, Dolby's and the studios lack of announcements regarding home Atmos content on BD has me concerned. Content is king. For home Atmos to be successful, there has to be a reasonable amount of content for home Atmos to be successful. Perhaps the studios are waiting to see how popular/successful home Atmos equipment sales will be before investing in home Atmos BD content? Perhaps only newer theatrical Atmos releases will be converted to Atmos BD and current non-Atmos BD will utilize the home Atmos up mixer? Perhaps there will be significant announcements coming soon and we just have to wait patiently? I certainly hope that there will be a plethora of Atmos BD content available by Christmas 2014.

Regarding the home Atmos up mixer for non-Atmos BD, has anyone heard it? If so, please share your thoughts about it.

avsforum Members Atmos & Auro Configuration Spreadsheet

How to Create a Dolby Atmos Demo Disc (post #15199)

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post #4264 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:06 PM
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Ceiling speakers should be better IF the (re-)mix supports it. If not then reflected sound can result in a more realistic presentation. Same reason why some like omnis for playback of stereo recordings...
This does bring up an interesting point: What is the preference from Dolby's perspective? Or, maybe even more to the point: What configuration is used in the mixing process?

I'm still wrapping my brain around the idea that it doesn't matter very much though. That's clearly a cool bit of trickery Dolby has pulled off.

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post #4265 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:12 PM
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Ya, the cost. Or the bank account statement. I could tell her that its her birthday gift next week. But, I dont think she'l quite believe me. You are right about the shoes and purses...
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post #4266 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:14 PM
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So, if we get the atmos speaker, will we be able to use it for dts uhd? Or safe bet is to get the ceiling speakers?
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post #4267 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:20 PM
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So, if we get the atmos speaker, will we be able to use it for dts uhd? Or safe bet is to get the ceiling speakers?
Safe bet is to get nothing and wait and see what happens.
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post #4268 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post
This does bring up an interesting point: What is the preference from Dolby's perspective? Or, maybe even more to the point: What configuration is used in the mixing process?
It's the decades old question how much the listening room acoustics should be part of the presentation. In my mind the recording should be enabled to have full control over the presentation but this requires highly standardized acoustics in production and reproduction. Ceiling-firing Atmos speakers don't follow that thinking.

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post #4269 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
I am pro home Atmos and and patiently waiting to purchase an Atmos AVR and Atmos speakers. However, Dolby's and the studios lack of announcements regarding home Atmos content on BD has me concerned. Content is king. For home Atmos to be successful, there has to be a reasonable amount of content for home Atmos to be successful. Perhaps the studios are waiting to see how popular/successful home Atmos equipment sales will be before investing in home Atmos BD content? Perhaps only newer theatrical Atmos releases will be converted to Atmos BD and current non-Atmos BD will utilize the home Atmos up mixer? Perhaps there will be significant announcements coming soon and we just have to wait patiently? I certainly hope that there will be a plethora of Atmos BD content available by Christmas 2014.

Regarding the home Atmos up mixer for non-Atmos BD, has anyone heard it? If so, please share your thoughts about it.
The industry is playing the ol' chicken and the egg game. What they should have done was simultaneously release "test the water" disc content with the hardware roll out.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #4270 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post
So, if we get the atmos speaker, will we be able to use it for dts uhd [and with Auro-3D (and with MPEG-H 3D)]? Or safe bet is to get the ceiling speakers?

Of course if you are 'lucky', your AV system might need only to support 3D audio playback for one codec . . . but I can't rely on studios choosing the same codec for both Game Of Thrones Season 8, and a 3D audio remix of Star Wars Episodes I-VI!
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post #4271 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:37 PM
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I like the idea of Dolby Atmos. I will, however, wait for the next set of flagship receivers in a year or two and see what they will have to offer. I hope by then they will support 9.1.4 and that DTS-UHD will be available. I'm greedy and want my wides and 4 ceiling speakers

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post #4272 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:39 PM
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It'd be nice if the high-end decoder systems were to include a copy of at least the Dolby Atmos demo disc, like some of the early 3D TVs came with 3D movies.
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post #4273 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by qwho51 View Post
Article posted August 14,2014....Is this the DTS answer? Nothing posted at DTS website however..!http://widescreenreview.com/news_detail.php?id=20166
So here we go again all of us will need to replace our AV R or AV pre/pro

2104 New AVR with Dolby Atmos

2015 New AVR with ATMOS & DTS-UHD

2016 New AVR with ATMOS, DTS-UHD, AURO 3D

And if BluRay movies are released DTS-UHD will take the lead but they have a lot catching up to do!
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post #4274 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:45 PM
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Sometimes ya just shouldn't tell the wife... A good chance she will never know as long as she doesn't see the cost.
IME, just like most guys don't know the difference between a $30 pair of shoes and a $300 pair of shoes, most women don't know the difference between a $3,000 flagship processor and an entry level unit. Happy wife = happy life...
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post #4275 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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So here we go again all of us will need to replace our AV R or AV pre/pro

2104 New AVR with Dolby Atmos

2015 New AVR with ATMOS & DTS-UHD

2016 New AVR with ATMOS, DTS-UHD, AURO 3D

And if BluRay movies are released DTS-UHD will take the lead but they have a lot catching up to do!
If Atmos in DD+ over streaming services will find fast implementation then I'm not sure if we will speak of DTS-UHD or Auro 3D anymore at all.
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post #4276 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 02:50 PM
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If Atmos in DD+ over streaming services will find fast implementation then I'm not sure if we will speak of DTS-UHD or Auro 3D anymore at all.
And by all accounts, we will be seeing Atmos in DD+ over streaming services really soon, so...
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post #4277 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:00 PM
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*Pause while brain attempts to reconcile*
My brain is still doing that, even after hearing it. Will hopefully get another demo soon, with different speakers in a different room, when Pioneer has their open house locally.

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post #4278 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:01 PM
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And by all accounts, we will be seeing Atmos in DD+ over streaming services really soon, so...
But if it's anything like the audio streaming quality of Netflix, then my excitement will be quite tempered. They tend to further compress the sound beyond what the studios give them as downloadable files (not just the video).

We need a disc based approach as a primary means of delivering a premium experience. That goes for UHD as well.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #4279 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:13 PM
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So here we go again all of us will need to replace our AV R or AV pre/pro

2104 New AVR with Dolby Atmos

2015 New AVR with ATMOS & DTS-UHD

2016 New AVR with ATMOS, DTS-UHD, AURO 3D

And if BluRay movies are released DTS-UHD will take the lead but they have a lot catching up to do!

We're all not rich or even in the 5%, but this is exactly why the Trinnov Altitude is such an appealing product. Scalability from 8/16/24/32 channels, and a PC-core based processor allowing for software instead of DSP implementation of codecs, and ala carte codec upgrade packages possibly (e.g. you can get Atmos and Auro one year, and add UHD the next to that bundle). Plus you have the heavily customizable parameters of the Trinnov Optimizer, and a ton of presets and ability to generate configuration-specific target curves. Of course, it's a $20K+ solution, and closer to $40K or more potentially as you creep up toward 32 channels! OTOH you can build your 24.1.10 speaker model if you're ambitious enough LOL.

As I said somewhere else, think of what people spend on boats, or a motorcyle or some vanity thing, and the time value of money. Buying those shiny new AVRs, if you have a frequent case of upgraditis and tend toward the flagship products like a Pioneer SC-89 or a Denon X7200, means that over enough time, you'll spend a good deal of the amount on those incremental new AVRs that you might spend on an eight or ten year lifespan of the Trinnov pre/pro. Disclaimer: I'm about 75% likely to put my money to some degree of where my mouth is, but see me after CEDIA for exactly what that means

Amazing that only the PS3 and Trinnov have seriously looked at PC-based processing instead of DSPs for a "mainstream" home audio product. You would think that eventually someone would stumble into an HTPC solution that's in-between the hunk of metal AVR world and the Trinnov hi-end model, maybe on a subscription model for updates like Microsoft provides for some of its flavors of Office. Or someone that would also do a hook up with a financing institution as part of selling a processor for the ambitious types who have some, but not all of the cash for a product like the Altitude. Imagine a "Fannie Mae" for AVSers.....the mind reels.

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post #4280 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:16 PM
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We're all not rich or even in the 5%, but this is exactly why the Trinnov Altitude is such an appealing product. Scalability from 8/16/24/32 channels, and a PC-core based processor allowing for software instead of DSP implementation of codecs, and ala carte codec upgrade packages possibly (e.g. you can get Atmos and Auro one year, and add UHD the next to that bundle). Plus you have the heavily customizable parameters of the Trinnov Optimizer, and a ton of presets and ability to generate configuration-specific target curves. Of course, it's a $20K+ solution, and closer to $40K or more potentially as you creep up toward 32 channels. :eek. OTOH you can build your 24.1.10 speaker model if you're ambitious enough LOL.


As I said somewhere else, think of what people spend on boats, or a motorcyle or some vanity thing, and the time value of money. Buying those three new AVRs, if you have a frequent case of upgraditis and tend toward the flagship products like a Marantz 8802, means that over enough time, you'll spend a good deal of the amount on those incremental new AVRs that you might spend on an eight or ten year lifespan of the Trinnov pre/pro.


Amazing that only the PS3 and Trinnov have seriously looked at PC-based processing instead of DSPs. You would think that eventually someone would stumble into an HTPC solution that's in-between the hunk of metal AVR world and the Trinnov hi-end model, maybe on a subscription model for updates like Microsoft provides for some of its flavors of Office. Or someone that would also do a hook up with a financing institution as part of selling a processor for the ambitious types who have some, but not all of the cash for a product like the Altitude. Imagine a "Fannie Mae" for AVSers LOL.
Subscription based like Adobe Premiere and Photoshop, and what MS wants to do with the Windows OS? No thank you!

However, this traditional receiver and pre-amp nonsense needs to end with the advent of object based surround. The equipment needs to be upgradeable and modular.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #4281 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:25 PM
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Subscription based like Adobe Premiere and Photoshop, and what MS want to do with the Windows OS? No thank you!

However, this traditional receiver and pre-amp nonsense needs to end with the advent of object based surround. The equipment needs to be upgradeable and modular.
Agreed - but it works in some contexts as long as there's strong support staff and a stream of updates in response to user issues. I'm in marketing research, and most of the software products I use (SAS, SPSS, and those from specialized companies like Sawtooth Software) are on subscription models, and downloadable Internet updates with push notification, these days, are more of a norm than ever. MS Windows isn't the best example, since Windows OS is in the "if it's not broke, why try to fix it" mode. Maybe someone like an Oppo might go for it, if the user is willing to pay for maintenance and/or rent specific options (codecs?) as needed, with an option to buy? Assuming a software-based processing world, though, not hardware as we know it.

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post #4282 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:27 PM
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Just received the information below from KEF US regarding the "R50 Atmos speakers"


KEF US:


"Right now the KEF R50 Atmos speakers are pre-official-launch. These match perfectly with our current R series of Floorstanding and bookshelf speakers.
Their US debut will be at the B-to-B CEDIA show in Denver, but they will not be active.
Keep an eye on www.kef.com as the information on these will be posted in the next few weeks.
They will begin shipping to dealers for display and sale in the October time period."


I am looking forward to a demo of these in October
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post #4283 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:30 PM
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Just received the information below from KEF US regarding the "R50 Atmos speakers"


KEF US:


"Right now the KEF R50 Atmos speakers are pre-official-launch. These match perfectly with our current R series of Floorstanding and bookshelf speakers.
Their US debut will be at the B-to-B CEDIA show in Denver, but they will not be active.
Keep an eye on www.kef.com as the information on these will be posted in the next few weeks.
They will begin shipping to dealers for display and sale in the October time period."


I am looking forward to a demo of these in October

Oh fun: something ELSE to check out at CEDIA! I hope there's a few more manufacturers planning a rollout of Atmos-capable, top-firing speakers as well. Hello PSB

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post #4284 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:35 PM
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Agreed - but it works in some contexts as long as there's strong support staff and a stream of updates in response to user issues. I'm in marketing research, and most of the software products I use (SAS, SPSS, and those from specialized companies like Sawtooth Software) are on subscription models, and downloadable Internet updates with push notification, these days, are more of a norm than ever. MS Windows isn't the best example, since Windows OS is in the "if it's not broke, why try to fix it" mode. Maybe someone like an Oppo might go for it, if the user is willing to pay for maintenance and/or rent specific options (codecs?) as needed, with an option to buy? Assuming a software-based processing world, though, not hardware as we know it.
I don't want to rent codecs either. I would, however, pay a little more if a new audio codec (like DTS-UHD) comes out and my DSP can be flashed to include it. However, A/V codecs don't come out very often, so I wouldn't have to keep paying over and over and over and over and... like some of these "pay all the time or you lose the ability to use our product" types of services that are popping up right and left like greedy weeds.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #4285 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:40 PM
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Oh fun: something ELSE to check out at CEDIA! I hope there's a few more manufacturers planning a rollout of Atmos-capable, top-firing speakers as well. Hello PSB
I hope, though, that everyone elses' Atmos related products will be all wired up and allowed to "do their thing." I would rather not have just a bunch of mockups to stare at while I'm at CEDIA.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #4286 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:43 PM
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I don't want to rent codecs either. I would, however, pay a little more if a new audio codec (like DTS-UHD) comes out and my DSP can be flashed to include it. However, A/V codecs don't come out too often, so I wouldn't have to keep paying over and over and over and over and... like some of these "pay all the time or you lose the ability to use our product" types of services that are popping up right and left like greedy weeds.

What I was thinking of was a model where you could "try" a new codec (e.g. Auro or DTS-UHD) for, say, 7 or 14 days, either for free as part of a maintenance package, or for a small fee, enough to try some streamed content or possibly a rented shiny disc or two, and decide if it was for you. If so, you pay for the full version either perpetually (if you really want it) or a specific amount of time (i.e. a longer trial, or if you want to see if a meaningful degree of content comes out).

The problem IMO with the whole Atmos thing is that you've got to shell out a few thousand bucks + two/four new speakers, and it's going to be useless to you unless a) there's Atmos content you want to buy/stream or b) Dolby Surround provides enough benefit and uses those Atmos speakers to simulate the Atmos effect, which is a huge unknown right now. And it doesn't hurt to have the patience to wait until the stuff you really want to experience in true Atmos hits the market.

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Last edited by sdrucker; 08-15-2014 at 03:47 PM.
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post #4287 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
What I was thinking of was a model where you could "try" a new codec (e.g. Auro or DTS-UHD) for, say, 7 or 14 days, either for free as part of a maintenance package, or for a small fee, enough to try some streamed content or possibly a rented shiny disc or two, and decide if it was for you. If so, you pay for the full version either perpetually (if you really want it) or a specific amount of time (i.e. a longer trial, or if you want to see if a meaningful degree of content comes out).


The problem IMO with the whole Atmos thing is that you've got to shell out a few thousand bucks + two/four new speakers, and it's going to be useless to you unless a) there's Atmos content you want to buy/stream or b) Dolby Surround provides enough benefit and uses those Atmos speakers to simulate the Atmos effect, which is a huge unknown right now. And it doesn't hurt to have the patience to wait until the stuff you really want to experience in true Atmos hits the market.
However, if you want to trial rent a codec... especially something like Atmos... you would still need to buy the extra speakers and install them or you wouldn't be able to try it out anyway.

And again, I'm not going to pay perpetually to keep my surround processor running. Companies can just stuff that idea.
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post #4288 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 03:56 PM
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However, if you want to trial rent a codec... especially something like Atmos... you would still need to buy the extra speakers and install them or you wouldn't be able to try it out anyway.

And again, I'm not going to pay perpetually to keep my surround processor running. Companies can just stuff that idea.

True - but you can buy a pair of those Onkyo add-ons for $500 at a Best Buy, try Atmos in my hypothetical purchase model, and still be within the return policy. Or if you already have the speakers, you might be able to use one configuration (not optimal, but better than nothing) for a given set of speakers and try it for different codecs, i.e. UHD, Auro, the newish version of Atmos if/when a second generation comes to the consumer A/V market, etc. In that sense it would be no different than using DTS True-HD vs. DD Plus for a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, as long as you have the speakers to support 9/11 channels.

Not as nuts as it sounds if you think about how some of us demo speakers or subs in our home, and still potentially cheaper than the hunk of metal you're buying just to have Atmos. But you need something other than a DSP-based AVR or pre/pro to make it work, or at least more powerful chips than the Japanese manufacturers use. That also helps avoid tradeoffs like the one Onkyo made: dumping Audyssey so they wouldn't have to add another DSP or swap DSPs to include Atmos. Just as stupid as the 32-bit Windows memory limitation to 4 GB RAM being a bottleneck to software app development for many years, in my view, until Microsoft developed stable versions of 64-bit Windows 7. The consumer A/V world needs to step up to the plate and join the proverbial 64-bit processing world.

Well, off of the soapbox and back to the usual discussion hijinks.....

Audio Gear: Sherwood R-972 (Trinnov Altitude - coming soon!), NAD M27 amp
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini
Misc.: Oppo 103, Apple TV, JRiver ID NUC
PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds; HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

Last edited by sdrucker; 08-15-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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post #4289 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 04:01 PM
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Glad you found it useful. Front Heights + Top Middles as an 'approved' combination is also great news for me! ....
If you are talking about having Front Height speakers in the same location I've been using them for PLIIz that is great news for me as well...also if Top Middle means right above our MLP we could be good to go.

Unfortunately a new Monitor is going to be our first concern and convincing my wife that whatever she remembers about me saying about the Denon AVR-4311ci being the last piece of audio equipment we will need until the warranty runs out hopefully will be forgotten, but my guess is I won't be an early adapter...

Thanks Keith for all of your effort and excitement.
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post #4290 of 18285 Old 08-15-2014, 04:08 PM
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I hope, though, that everyone elses' Atmos related products will be all wired up and allowed to "do their thing." I would rather not have just a bunch of mockups to stare at while I'm at CEDIA.
Yes, I will be sorely disappointed if I don't get to hear an actual demo or two at CEDIA. Including, preferably, at least one in a room outside the main floor. Even the sound rooms on the main floor have quite a lot of background noise to deal with.

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