The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 145 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 09:46 PM 08-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Strange as Gary Reber sat across from me at the press Q and A..... wonder why they haven't mentioned it on their site yet but then post a reprint of an 8 month old CES DTS press release...
During it's heyday, Widescreen Review whipped readers into a frenzy, creating something for DTS that no lossy compression codec had before or since: a fan following. Yup, for a lossy compression codec. Reber even petitioned the FCC to get DTS on HDTV broadcasts.

markus767's Avatar markus767 02:54 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
No good; highly compressed audio (lossy @ 640kbps). ...Anything less than multich hi-res audio won't do.
Blu or go home.
You're talking about Dolby Digital but streaming Atmos will be encoded in Dolby Digital Plus
westmd's Avatar westmd 02:59 AM 08-16-2014
What I find quite odd about the Denon diagram is the height level of the side surrounds. From my knowledge they should be quite high in the room. (I have a Jamo THX setup and they suggest min. 2 meters). Question is now if Denon always suggested to bring side surrounds at ear level or if this an "Atmos effect" as airspace now belongs to the ceiling/Atmos speakers?
westmd's Avatar westmd 03:04 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Here again the diagram!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 03:51 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
But if it's anything like the audio streaming quality of Netflix, then my excitement will be quite tempered. They tend to further compress the sound beyond what the studios give them as downloadable files (not just the video).

We need a disc based approach as a primary means of delivering a premium experience. That goes for UHD as well.
Couldn't agree more. All my movie content is on shiny disc and is likely to be that way until the day comes when I can stream the exact same quality. But that's me...
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 03:56 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
If you are talking about having Front Height speakers in the same location I've been using them for PLIIz that is great news for me as well...also if Top Middle means right above our MLP we could be good to go.
If your existing Front Heights fall within the angle range of 30-45 degrees, then you can leave them where they are, and add another pair of top speakers and you are good to go. That other pair could be Top Middle, and the range for TM is 65-100 degrees, so do a quick diagram of your room and see where they fall in relation to your seating position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Thanks Keith for all of your effort and excitement.
Kind of you to say so - thanks.
luca_frontino 03:56 AM 08-16-2014
Anybody care to speculate if these upcoming Atmos soundtracks will retain the original volume level when played on a non-Atmos 7 ch AVR or will there be attenuation, like when 7.1 tracks get lowered by 3dB on 5 ch AVRs?
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:02 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Could you tell how the in-ceiling speakers were oriented? Were they straight down as in previous demos, or aimed toward the MLP? If the former, thus far we have not heard of a demo where the ceiling speakers were aimed toward the MLP. Would that not factor in at all?
They were pointing directly down, Roger. They also looked, as far as I could tell from a quick glance when the AT cover was briefly pulled back, as if they were conventional designs and not dual concentrics. I am expecting, as you are, that DC designs, with a wide, 90 degree all-round dispersion, oriented towards the MLP, will make a good difference and perhaps close the gap between the spaciousness of the Atmos speakers and the in-ceiling speakers I heard at both my demos. Then we will have the best of both worlds - the terrific spaciousness which the Atmos speakers create, plus the extra precision which the ceiling speakers create.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:06 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Well, not really. I believe FilmMixer said that he remains skeptical regarding the use of heights in any configuration for Atmos rendering. I'd still like to hear more on this subject from him unless it's moot pending an actual demo.
I believe he was referring to Heights mounted in the conventional 'height position' (ie top of the front or rear wall). You can of course mount a speaker on the ceiling and designate it as Front Height or Top Front thanks to the angle overlap: 30-45 vs 30-55 respectively.

Denon and Dolby say that their posted combinations will work well, even when FH speakers are used in the regular FH position, which is closer to the 30 degrees than anything else. Personally, I feel that the speakers should all be on the ceiling for the best result, even if one pair is designated in the AVR as Front Height, and I suspect that is what Marc meant. No doubt he will confirm or otherwise in due course.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:08 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Bonjour Keith,

BRAVO + merci².

Amts,

Hugo
Merci bien, Hugo. Rien du tout!

And thanks for the nice mention on the French AV site too!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 04:32 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
What I find quite odd about the Denon diagram is the height level of the side surrounds. From my knowledge they should be quite high in the room. (I have a Jamo THX setup and they suggest min. 2 meters). Question is now if Denon always suggested to bring side surrounds at ear level or if this an "Atmos effect" as airspace now belongs to the ceiling/Atmos speakers?
At both demos I have attended the surrounds were all at ear height. The reason, I believe, is to create the maximum separation between the surrounds and the ceiling speakers (or just the ceiling in the case of Atmos speakers). The requisite phantom imagine between 'sets' of speakers won’t work well if some of the speakers are very close to some of the others - eg if the surrounds and the Top Rears are only separated by a couple of feet.

I am lowering my own surrounds for this reason. Incidentally, if more than one listener has to be considered it may be worth lowering the surrounds but still ensuring that they fire over the heads of the listeners, to prevent a listener on the left from having the surround speaker 'blocked' by the listener to the right, and vice-versa.
Kwikas's Avatar Kwikas 05:03 AM 08-16-2014
I think this might have been covered earlier in the thread but I can't locate it.

Can someone tell me.....what happens if you put 5 screen speakers up front? I believe atmos does/can allow for this.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 05:16 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikas View Post
I think this might have been covered earlier in the thread but I can't locate it.

Can someone tell me.....what happens if you put 5 screen speakers up front? I believe atmos does/can allow for this.
In the cinema but not, AFAIK, at home. At home, typical screen widths would make it less useful than in a cinema where the screens are so much wider.

Dolby may have allowed for it in the home Atmos spec, but the real question is whether any AVR manufacturers will enable it as an option. So far, none of the mainstream manufacturers has.
ss9001's Avatar ss9001 05:18 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by luca_frontino View Post
Anybody care to speculate if these upcoming Atmos soundtracks will retain the original volume level when played on a non-Atmos 7 ch AVR or will there be attenuation, like when 7.1 tracks get lowered by 3dB on 5 ch AVRs?
since the Atmos objects are metadata and contained in the existing TrueHD /DD+ track, I would expect no change. non-Atmos AVR's will ignore the metadata & just process the TrueHD track as they normally would. that's my interpretation.

remember, part of Atmo is still the 7.1 conventional channels anyway.
erwinfrombelgium's Avatar erwinfrombelgium 06:56 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
What I find quite odd about the Denon diagram is the height level of the side surrounds. From my knowledge they should be quite high in the room. (I have a Jamo THX setup and they suggest min. 2 meters). Question is now if Denon always suggested to bring side surrounds at ear level or if this an "Atmos effect" as airspace now belongs to the ceiling/Atmos speakers?
The reason for the recommended 6' height was that this height allowed for a more immersive soundfield within the limitation of only one available surround height. Now there are two heights, this no longer holds value.

As Keith wrote, the effect will be less if the side Surounds and Overheads are very close to each other.

Think of it as a hemisphere where you try to spread out the speakers as even as possible, but within the guidelines of Atmos and the way it's implemented into the hardware at this point. Meaning you cannot put speakers anywhere it suits you, since the positions are preset into the hardware. It may come, though, if the processor can figure out where you have put the speakers via triangulation from multiple microphone points in the room.

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tjenkins95's Avatar tjenkins95 07:18 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
Totally agree look at gravity incredible sound and video but the movie was horrible
It received a 97% rating among viewers and all of those awards so you must have been in the 3% that didn't like it.
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar J_Palmer_Cass 07:30 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
It received a 97% rating among viewers and all of those awards so you must have been in the 3% that didn't like it.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...ef=mostpopular
Nightlord's Avatar Nightlord 07:35 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
It received a 97% rating among viewers and all of those awards so you must have been in the 3% that didn't like it.
Well, I doubt avs constitutes as much as 3% of the population, so there you have it.

Haven't seen it yet, but since that guy also dislikes matrix and avatar, I would not grant him a second more of attention for the remainder of my life..
tjenkins95's Avatar tjenkins95 07:35 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


That's only one person's opinion and obviously another member of the 3%.
kriktsemaj99's Avatar kriktsemaj99 08:19 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
With regard to hardware, I asked Stephen and JJ some questions about the way Atmos is being implemented in current AVRs from the mainstream manufacturers such as Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha and Pioneer.

JJ went into some detail to answer my question concerning the angles that the rendering engine will render to and how current units handle this. JJ confirmed that Dolby are giving full capability to the AVR manufacturers to be able to use full speaker positional information. It is entirely up to the manufacturer to implement this or not, either by allowing the user to enter details manually or allowing the AVR to handle it through the measuring process which is part of the setup routine. Currently, as we know, none of the mainstream manufacturers is giving us this capability in their first generation Atmos units.

I'm beginning to think Yamaha might surpise us with the RX-A3040, because why else would they have just modified their angle meaasuring device? They've measured angles for years but only using 3 mic positions, and now they added a 4 position out of the plane so they can measure everything needed by Atmos. So for sure they will be measuring actual speaker angles, and if the rendering engine can use this information it's trivial for them to make use of it.

Also adding Atmos support in a later FW update means they can keep their powder dry and spring this as a surprise after everyone else is committed to fixed angles.
Nightlord's Avatar Nightlord 08:22 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
I'm beginning to think Yamaha might surprise us with the RX-A3040, because why else would they have just modified their angle meaasuring device? They've measured angles for years but only using 3 mic positions, and now they added a 4 position out of the plane so they can measure everything needed by Atmos. So for sure they will be measuring actual speaker angles, and if the rendering engine can use this information it's trivial for them to make use of it.
Very interesting. Yamaha has never been in the game for me before, but perhaps they just got into it.
westmd's Avatar westmd 08:28 AM 08-16-2014
So how do I use this Denon sheet exactly? I calculated that if I would go for installing front heights at between 45 and 30 degrees to the main listening position I would have a distance between 170 and 207 cm as distance between main listening position and ceiling is around 120 cm. Now my main speakers are at about 400 cm distance to the listening position. That means I would have to install the front heights somewhere in the middle between main listening position and main speakers. Are these tboughts correct?
BTW I found a really nice tool to calculate distances from the angles. It is in german but I think self explanatory:

http://www.arndt-bruenner.de/mathe/s...rechnungrw.htm
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 08:33 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
It received a 97% rating among viewers and all of those awards so you must have been in the 3% that didn't like it.
I loved everything about it. I found it to be one of the most involving, immersive movie experiences of the year. I was on the edge of my seat half of the running time. The incredible sound and visuals perfectly complemented the story IMO. And to hear it in Atmos... well....
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 08:35 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
I'm beginning to think Yamaha might surpise us with the RX-A3040, because why else would they have just modified their angle meaasuring device? They've measured angles for years but only using 3 mic positions, and now they added a 4 position out of the plane so they can measure everything needed by Atmos. So for sure they will be measuring actual speaker angles, and if the rendering engine can use this information it's trivial for them to make use of it.

Also adding Atmos support in a later FW update means they can keep their powder dry and spring this as a surprise after everyone else is committed to fixed angles.
I do hope you are right. It would be great to see at least one of the mainstream manufacturers using the features Dolby have provided.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 08:40 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Very interesting. Yamaha has never been in the game for me before, but perhaps they just got into it.
I've been a longtime fan of Yamaha going back decades. My very first 'proper' stereo amplifier was a Yamaha, decades ago. I sold it to a friend in the late '70s and, amazingly, he still uses it to this very day. How's that for build quality?

I only moved away from Yamaha with the advent of AV units because I attach so much importance to Audyssey's XT32 in my system. I am sure that if Yamaha had XT32, it would be my go-to brand. I am not all that familiar with the latest version of YPAO but I understand that it is much improved over earlier incarnations. Add that to the ability to measure speaker locations (if this comes off) and Yamaha might just be coming back on to the radar of a lot of people.
westmd's Avatar westmd 08:42 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thanks. Yes, so long as you are within the required angle specification (30-45 degrees for Front Height) then you can use them in any combination allowed by your AVR. The permitted combinations which Denon are offering are:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height

Dolby have now confirmed, and even praised Denon for the fact, that those combinations will all work well.
So that means Dolby Atmos would be possible with neither ceiling speakers nor Dolby Atmos enabled speakers just by using front and rear heights at an angle firing about straight into your direction. This could solve my "low ceiling dilemma" as ceiling height should not matter that much! I wonder how this will sound!

And if the next gen of processor come out and support more channels I buy 4 Dolby Atmos enabled speakers additionally!
bargervais's Avatar bargervais 08:44 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
It received a 97% rating among viewers and all of those awards so you must have been in the 3% that didn't like it.
For me too Hollywood Sandra Bullock almost dies, I don't know how many times to miraculously make it then get to that Chinese space station and reenter the atmosphere..
Remember she was tumbling in space out of control screaming and flailing she should have died then.
The sound and video were amazing and that's what got me through it but the content was just too unbelievable..
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 08:48 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
So how do I use this Denon sheet exactly? I calculated that if I would go for installing front heights at between 45 and 30 degrees to the main listening position I would have a distance between 170 and 207 cm as distance between main listening position and ceiling is around 120 cm. Now my main speakers are at about 400 cm distance to the listening position. That means I would have to install the front heights somewhere in the middle between main listening position and main speakers. Are these tboughts correct?
BTW I found a really nice tool to calculate distances from the angles.
Yes, you are correct. In my room, using a 42 degree angle from the MLP, the Top Front or Front Height speakers on the ceiling fall in between the MLP and the front wall, which is perfect.

I just drew a scale rectangle on a piece of paper, using the scale 1mm = 2cm, to represent the room, measured where my ears are in the room and marked them on the diagram and then used my schoolboy protractor to draw a line at the relevant angle until it intersected the ceiling. Easy then to measure the distance from that point to the front wall - and bingo - you have your speaker position. If it isn't quite where you want it, then repeat using any angle in the permitted range for the speaker pair you are concerned with and you are good to go. Then repeat the whole process for the Top rear or Top Middle etc...
westmd's Avatar westmd 08:49 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I've been a longtime fan of Yamaha going back decades. My very first 'proper' stereo amplifier was a Yamaha, decades ago. I sold it to a friend in the late '70s and, amazingly, he still uses it to this very day. How's that for build quality?

I only moved away from Yamaha with the advent of AV units because I attach so much importance to Audyssey's XT32 in my system. I am sure that if Yamaha had XT32, it would be my go-to brand. I am not all that familiar with the latest version of YPAO but I understand that it is much improved over earlier incarnations. Add that to the ability to measure speaker locations (if this comes off) and Yamaha might just be coming back on to the radar of a lot of people.
My first Dolby surround unit was also from Yamaha in the early nineties. Then I moved to Lexicon but they have just become too slow so I am looking into Yamaha again. I am going to the IFA in Berlin in three weeks where Yamaha apperently will announce /demonstrate a CX A5000 sucessor which will have Dolby Atmos!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701 08:55 AM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
So that means Dolby Atmos would be possible with neither ceiling speakers nor Dolby Atmos enabled speakers just by using front and rear heights at an angle firing about straight into your direction. This could solve my "low ceiling dilemma" as ceiling height should not matter that much! I wonder how this will sound!

And if the next gen of processor come out and support more channels I buy 4 Dolby Atmos enabled speakers additionally!
In Denons at least, and supported by Dolby for Atmos, you can use Front Height and Rear Height speakers so long as they comply with the angles to the listening ears which are laid down in the specs (see the oft-posted diagram).

Both FilmMixer and myself have recently commented that this configuration might not be as effective as overhead speakers, but neither of us has currently heard such a configuration so we could be surprised. And Dolby specifically support that configuration so it must be, at the very least, a reasonable way to go or, presumably, it would not be a supported configuration. In my reply to this specific question (see my report) Stephen from Dolby said that while they (Dolby) are recommending a 'standard' configuration (using Top Front, Top Middle and Top Rear in 5/7.1.2 or 5/7.1.4 configurations) they also allow for the full Atmos experience with other configurations and indeed he commended Denon for making these other configurations available.

In your case, with your room, the configuration you are considering might be less than ideal, but still much better than no Atmos at all. I wish you well with it and would love to read a report of how it sounds if you do go that way.
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