The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1508 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #45211 of 46466 Old 05-22-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
I "was" gong to move those in-ceilings to 84" center to center so that the separation would not be so great that it lost the left right effect. But I'm not to sure little 6.5 in-ceiling speakers could hang with that much separation? Thoughts?
For the most part, the L & R mains, as you suggest serve to create a " sound stage"...a reference mostly to 2 channel music/stereo. The "height" speakers serve to place overhead effects and objects anywhere in 3D space (front to back, side to side, and everywhere in between including diagonal space) to supplement the immersive environment created by the 5.1/7.1 channels and primarily for movies. In this regard, the center to center distance is less critical and any necessary fine turning could be accomplished by pivoting your speakers and/or by manually trimming the speaker levels. BTW...the goal for the overhead speaker is to achieve wide dispersion and avoid hot spotting.

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post #45212 of 46466 Old 05-22-2017, 09:31 PM
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Thanks for all the help from the folks in this thread; I just had my first atmos experience and it was EPIC. Interstellar was amaZing!


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post #45213 of 46466 Old 05-22-2017, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by The Hotness View Post
Thanks for all the help from the folks in this thread; I just had my first atmos experience and it was EPIC. Interstellar was amaZing!


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And just think... that movie wasn't even in Dolby Atmos (theatrically or on home video). The Blu-ray packaging is in error. You were probably hearing the 5.1 track bumped up via Dolby Surround upmixing.

If you want a really good real Atmos mix, try finding a copy of Gravity's Diamond Luxe Edition.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #45214 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 01:34 AM
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Mono objects vs Stereo objects: How does it work?

My understanding is that objects in Atmos are usually mono-sounds, which are being positioned in 3D-space by the Atmos playback renderer present in any Atmos capable AVR/processor. This Atmos renderer either sends this mono-sound to specific speaker designations, or pan-pots it (applying volume controls) over the available speakers to get it as close as possible to the intended position or trajectory. While doing this (and contrary to the way (surround) bed channels are best arrayed) there is no de-correlation applied.

The phantom image of such mono-aural sound positioned between two speakers is only stable in the very center. Generally speaking, you could say that pan-pot isn’t the greatest tool for filling up the sound stage between speakers. Yet, Atmos does allow the re-recording engineer to apply so-called stereo-objects, which are basically two interlinked (uncorrelated) mono-objects.

And this brings me to my question: How is such "stereo object" being positioned? In particular how is the L/R separation secured, as a stereo phantom image needs sound coming from both sides of our head with a certain spread. Are these stereo objects being tagged with specific speaker designations, or can they in turn be positioned anywhere in 3D space using the pan-pot method described above?
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post #45215 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
And just think... that movie wasn't even in Dolby Atmos (theatrically or on home video). The Blu-ray packaging is in error. You were probably hearing the 5.1 track bumped up via Dolby Surround upmixing.

If you want a really good real Atmos mix, try finding a copy of Gravity's Diamond Luxe Edition.


It's cause I said the wrong damn movie! Haha Oblivion is what was viewed..


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post #45216 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
My understanding is that objects in Atmos are usually mono-sounds, which are being positioned in 3D-space by the Atmos playback renderer present in any Atmos capable AVR/processor. This Atmos renderer either sends this mono-sound to specific speaker designations, or pan-pots it (applying volume controls) over the available speakers to get it as close as possible to the intended position or trajectory. While doing this (and contrary to the way (surround) bed channels are best arrayed) there is no de-correlation applied.

The phantom image of such mono-aural sound positioned between two speakers is only stable in the very center. Generally speaking, you could say that pan-pot isn’t the greatest tool for filling up the sound stage between speakers. Yet, Atmos does allow the re-recording engineer to apply so-called stereo-objects, which are basically two interlinked (uncorrelated) mono-objects.

And this brings me to my question: How is such "stereo object" being positioned? In particular how is the L/R separation secured, as a stereo phantom image needs sound coming from both sides of our head with a certain spread. Are these stereo objects being tagged with specific speaker designations, or can they in turn be positioned anywhere in 3D space using the pan-pot method described above?


If Dolby re-used the 'stereo object positioning logic' from Atmos in the Dolby AC-4 codec, you might look in [Section 5.10.2.3 ?] of ETSI TS 103 190-2 V1.1.1 (2015-09) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard Part 2: Immersive and personalized audio (link) for some indication of the processing...?!

Also: the attached slide from an MPEG-H 3D Audio presentation (link) shows use of a 5.0 personalization object which appears to be static and spatially co-existent with 5 channel locations in the delivery stream layout.


_
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[Home Office system schematic]
"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."


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post #45217 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In commercial Atmos cinemas and Atmos dubbing stages (where most of the Atmos mixes you hear were created), the height arrays are at the quarter points of the L/R speaker spread (25% inward of the L/R speakers). The home Atmos install guide exaggerates this spread to make stereo separation more obvious in the overheads.
How often would such overhead stereo separation (between the top arrays) at home be part of an effect intended by the re-recording engineer/director, given that in the typical commercial Atmos cinema the top surround arrays are too close together for this to work well, and - on top of that - half of the audience has both arrays are at one side (left or right) of their heads?

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post #45218 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 05:53 PM
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Because most of the watchers have no idea........there are only a handfull of really great seats in a normal theater and about the same or less in a atmos theater......some where in the center 1/3rd and about center of that for atmos.

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post #45219 of 46466 Old 05-23-2017, 09:34 PM
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Because most of the watchers have no idea........there are only a handfull of really great seats in a normal theater and about the same or less in a atmos theater......some where in the center 1/3rd and about center of that for atmos.
Yes, but in the typical Atmos Cinema (as displayed in Dolby specs) almost 30% of the prime seats in the so-called Central Listening Area have no Top Speaker on both (L/R) side. I am just curious if/how filmmixers deal with this fact when positioning overhead sounds that are supposed to be perceived either left or right from listener, or traveling in-between. @FilmMixer ?

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post #45220 of 46466 Old 05-24-2017, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
If Dolby re-used the 'stereo object positioning logic' from Atmos in the Dolby AC-4 codec, you might look in [Section 5.10.2.3 ?] of ETSI TS 103 190-2 V1.1.1 (2015-09) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard Part 2: Immersive and personalized audio (link) for some indication of the processing...?!
Thanks for that.

In that document the panning of stereo signals is described only for the channel based renderer, which works for speakers in the horizontal pane. There is no specific mentioning of stereo signals (objects) in the description of the spatial (Intermediate Spatial Format) renderer, which includes the height layers. If Atmos works on these same principles, this would at least suggest that there are no stereo signals present in the overhead speakers. And how such panning/positioning/processing of stereo signals/objects works in the horizontal pane... ? This doc is mostly over my head, as I do not understand all nomenclature and am having difficulties going through some of those formulas ...

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post #45221 of 46466 Old 05-24-2017, 08:54 AM
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Thanks for that.

In that document the panning of stereo signals is described only for the channel based renderer, which works for speakers in the horizontal pane. There is no specific mentioning of stereo signals (objects) in the description of the spatial (Intermediate Spatial Format) renderer, which includes the height layers. If Atmos works on these same principles, this would at least suggest that there are no stereo signals present in the overhead speakers. And how such panning/positioning/processing of stereo signals/objects works in the horizontal pane... ? This doc is mostly over my head, as I do not understand all nomenclature and am having difficulties going through some of those formulas ...
Hello,

Apologies as I'm sure this has been answered before.

Have an existing 7.1 set-up. All speakers same model (pioneer bookshelves), all equal distance from primary listening position at (0, 30, 90, 135 degrees). Have a Pioneer 9.2 SC-85 and have two pair of Atmos enabled speakers (only using one pair at this time).

Question - with one pair of Atmos enabled speakers, what is the most effective placement of the Atmos enabled speaker? I was thinking in the surround position at 90 degrees (top middle)?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

Howard
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post #45222 of 46466 Old 05-24-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Thanks for that.

In that document the panning of stereo signals is described only for the channel based renderer, which works for speakers in the horizontal pane. There is no specific mentioning of stereo signals (objects) in the description of the spatial (Intermediate Spatial Format) renderer, which includes the height layers. If Atmos works on these same principles, this would at least suggest that there are no stereo signals present in the overhead speakers. And how such panning/positioning/processing of stereo signals/objects works in the horizontal pane... ? This doc is mostly over my head, as I do not understand all nomenclature and am having difficulties going through some of those formulas ...
I was under the impression that the "stereo" aspect of the Atmos overheads came from the two bed channels that are normally arrayed in the cinema to come out of all of the left and right overhead speakers just like the stereo channel beds to the sides and rear of the auditorium. Home Atmos doesn't have stereo bed channels for the overheads, so if they're present in the theatrical mix, two available object "slots" are fixed in space and operate in the same manner as channels. Mono objects can then pan through any of the speakers the renderer "sees" based upon panning metadata... creating "stereo" movement, though maybe not stereo imaging.

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post #45223 of 46466 Old 05-24-2017, 11:57 AM
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@maikeldepotter

Don't think of 'stereo objects' as having or requiring any imaging between them at all.

They are simply a pair (or more) or singular objects that are locked to one another.

There is no requirement for them to have a phantom image and "where they go" is a simple matter of their positional metadata and the Atmos decoder doing it's job with that data.
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post #45224 of 46466 Old 05-25-2017, 03:14 PM
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using Def Tech DT 6.5R in-ceiling for my atmos speakers.. 7.1.2 setup
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post #45225 of 46466 Old 05-26-2017, 08:56 AM
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using Def Tech DT 6.5R in-ceiling for my atmos speakers.. 7.1.2 setup
How are you liking your setup, and those DefTechs?

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post #45226 of 46466 Old 05-29-2017, 03:49 PM
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A question: if my MLP is close to a back wall, should I just stick with a 5.1.2 setup, or can I use one set of ceiling speakers as front heights, and another pair over listening position as top middle?
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post #45227 of 46466 Old 05-29-2017, 03:53 PM
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A question: if my MLP is close to a back wall, should I just stick with a 5.1.2 setup, or can I use one set of ceiling speakers as front heights, and another pair over listening position as top middle?
Front Heights and Top Middle are a permissable Atmos combo.
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post #45228 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 05:46 AM
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Will there be any difference between assigning the speakers as 'Top Front & Top Rear' instead of 'Front Height & Rear Height'?
My front 2 speakers are above my floor towers (a few inches infront) and angled toward the MLP my back speakers are just behind the MLP angled down towards it (MLP seating is close to back wall).
I'm unsure what I should set them as in amp assign or if it will make any difference anyway.

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post #45229 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 11:08 AM
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I currently have a pair of JBL 590's, 520c center, and I have a couple of old Polk's acting as my surrounds. I also have a couple of Pioneers SP T-22A-LR add-on speakers for atmos.

I am now building a dedicated media room, so looking to upgrade to in-ceiling atmos speakers. I also upgraded my AVR to a Denon X4300H, which is capable of doing 5.1.4 or 7.1.2. I am trying to figure out if I should go with 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

I would really appreciate suggestions regarding which ceiling speakers to purchase and should I go with 4 or 2 ceiling speakers. Also, for the surrounds (and/rears), any specific speakers that will go well with my 590 and 520 setup?

Thanks much!
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post #45230 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 12:01 PM
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I currently have a pair of JBL 590's, 520c center, and I have a couple of old Polk's acting as my surrounds. I also have a couple of Pioneers SP T-22A-LR add-on speakers for atmos.

I am now building a dedicated media room, so looking to upgrade to in-ceiling atmos speakers. I also upgraded my AVR to a Denon X4300H, which is capable of doing 5.1.4 or 7.1.2. I am trying to figure out if I should go with 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

I would really appreciate suggestions regarding which ceiling speakers to purchase and should I go with 4 or 2 ceiling speakers. Also, for the surrounds (and/rears), any specific speakers that will go well with my 590 and 520 setup?

Thanks much!
how was your experience with the pioneer atmos modules?
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post #45231 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
I am now building a dedicated media room, so looking to upgrade to in-ceiling atmos speakers. I also upgraded my AVR to a Denon X4300H, which is capable of doing 5.1.4 or 7.1.2. I am trying to figure out if I should go with 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

I would really appreciate suggestions regarding which ceiling speakers to purchase and should I go with 4 or 2 ceiling speakers. Also, for the surrounds (and/rears), any specific speakers that will go well with my 590 and 520 setup?
Go 5.1.4 if your space can fit them! You'll get more out of the experience with 4 Atmos, than the two extra rear surrounds will provide. Some might disagree. But that's what I'd do. I thought that receiver did 7.1.4?? Have to add an extra amp though?? I could be wrong....

You don't need anything too fancy for the Atmos speakers (or the surrounds for that matter). Get the best you can buy within your budget of course, but your budget doesn't need to be large for this. There are a number of good manufacturers for in-ceilings. Be sure to check out the Best In-Ceiling Speakers for Atmos thread!

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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Sony BDP S-470, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #45232 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 12:39 PM
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so for in wall and in ceiling, which speaker out performs: KEF Ci series thx, or DT DI series, or DT UIW RCS enclosed?
Current cost KEF ci 4100 THX $500 ea, DT DI 5.5 about 200, DT UIW about 400.
Will open back always sound worse than enclosed?
Since the KEF specs are published at 4ohms and the rest 8, will that mean my denon 7200 will work harder?
dt certainly appears beefier, but are the KEF's more refined and would atmos work better with them?
All comments welcome.
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post #45233 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
I currently have a pair of JBL 590's, 520c center, and I have a couple of old Polk's acting as my surrounds. I also have a couple of Pioneers SP T-22A-LR add-on speakers for atmos.

I am now building a dedicated media room, so looking to upgrade to in-ceiling atmos speakers. I also upgraded my AVR to a Denon X4300H, which is capable of doing 5.1.4 or 7.1.2. I am trying to figure out if I should go with 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.

I would really appreciate suggestions regarding which ceiling speakers to purchase and should I go with 4 or 2 ceiling speakers. Also, for the surrounds (and/rears), any specific speakers that will go well with my 590 and 520 setup?

Thanks much!
If you are building a dedicated room & already have an X4300H, I would definitely wire it for overhead (downward firing) 7.1.4 at a minimum no matter what you do, just need to add a 2 channel amp to that receiver to support it. Retrofitting overhead Atmos speakers will be a bigger PITA later, and the recommended positioning between 2 & 4 speakers is different. Several threads on AVS talk about recommendations for adding 2 channel amps for Atmos enabled AVRs, decent models seem to go for about $200. If you can't afford to set up 7.1.4 right out of the gate, I'd go with 5.1.4 (regardless of upward/downward firing) & can add the 2 channel amp & the rear surrounds later. If your room/ceiling dimensions supports it, I think you'll be happier with downward firing - a lot easier to deal with adjustments. I hate my upward firing models, have complex room setup that is holding me back from downward firing at the moment.
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post #45234 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 01:47 PM
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how was your experience with the pioneer atmos modules?
so so, but I think that's because I have a popcorn ceiling, not sure though.

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Go 5.1.4 if your space can fit them! You'll get more out of the experience with 4 Atmos, than the two extra rear surrounds will provide. Some might disagree. But that's what I'd do. I thought that receiver did 7.1.4?? Have to add an extra amp though?? I could be wrong....

You don't need anything too fancy for the Atmos speakers (or the surrounds for that matter). Get the best you can buy within your budget of course, but your budget doesn't need to be large for this. There are a number of good manufacturers for in-ceilings. Be sure to check out the Best In-Ceiling Speakers for Atmos thread!
Thanks for the suggestion about 5.1.4, which is very useful. I was quite confused about it. You are right in that if I add an amp, I can convert it to a 7.1.4, which is what I will likely do. I was leaning towards the JBL in-ceiling speakers since the rest of my speakers are JBL, but I am reading that the RSL's are vastly better, but I am still trying to confirm if this is the case.

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If you are building a dedicated room & already have an X4300H, I would definitely wire it for overhead (downward firing) 7.1.4 at a minimum no matter what you do, just need to add a 2 channel amp to that receiver to support it. Retrofitting overhead Atmos speakers will be a bigger PITA later, and the recommended positioning between 2 & 4 speakers is different. Several threads on AVS talk about recommendations for adding 2 channel amps for Atmos enabled AVRs, decent models seem to go for about $200. If you can't afford to set up 7.1.4 right out of the gate, I'd go with 5.1.4 (regardless of upward/downward firing) & can add the 2 channel amp & the rear surrounds later. If your room/ceiling dimensions supports it, I think you'll be happier with downward firing - a lot easier to deal with adjustments. I hate my upward firing models, have complex room setup that is holding me back from downward firing at the moment.
Yep, the plan is to have it wired for downward firing. Initial plan was for 7.1 system, but I will now have it wired for 7.1.4. Yes with an additional amp, I should be able to drive 7.1.4 with the X4300H. Regarding the downward firing speakers, I am torn between the JBL (because the rest of my speakers are JBL) vs the RSL. Any thoughts?
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post #45235 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 01:49 PM
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.4 is the way to go no matter what.


I have .2 and it is alright.


With .4 you get all the feautures of atmos.......left to right pans and front to back.........even a big movie house with 20 ceiling speakers only get ,left to right and frot to back, they just have more speakers to cover multiple rows.


I will be upgrading in my tiny 12x12 room to .4 soon.


I set above/slightly behind against the wall on the ceiling and the second set as middles, but cheated towards the MLP. That way I get the front to backs pans I am missing with a .2 system.


My current .2 reciever asks if they are front ceiling,middle ceiling or rear ceiling as the 3 possible locations for the .2

I am sure a .4 will ask the same questions.......


So, .4 gets you all the content features of Atmos, even if you have to run them a little off spec as far as location, it will be better than not having the second set overhead.....somewhere...

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post #45236 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
Yep, the plan is to have it wired for downward firing. Initial plan was for 7.1 system, but I will now have it wired for 7.1.4. Yes with an additional amp, I should be able to drive 7.1.4 with the X4300H. Regarding the downward firing speakers, I am torn between the JBL (because the rest of my speakers are JBL) vs the RSL. Any thoughts?
From everything I have read, voicing/matching of Atmos speakers to the rest of your speakers doesn't matter much, if you go with .4, just get 2 pairs of the same model. There is a massive thread about Atmos speakers with lot of recommendations, I'm not a good source as I have bottom-of-the-line upward firing .2 setup at the moment - playing with Atmos Helicopter demo this weekend made it painfully obvious how bad my room/ceiling is for upward firing. If you get 4 decent downward firing speakers positioned properly and calibrated using Audessey, Atmos will sound great.

Main system: Samsung UN65JS8500, Denon X4300H, Oppo UDP-203, DirecTV HR54 w/4K mini, XBox One S, Audio-Technica AT-LP60-USB, Toshiba HD-XA2, ancient Fisher cassette deck & rarely used JVC HR-S4800U S-VHS because I can't part with electronics
7.1.2 speaker setup: B&W DM601 S2 (FL/FR & SBL/SBR), CC6 S2, Onkyo SKH-410 (Atmos), Atlantic Technology 254 (SL/SR), SVS PB-2000
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post #45237 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
.4 is the way to go no matter what.


I have .2 and it is alright.


With .4 you get all the feautures of atmos.......left to right pans and front to back.........even a big movie house with 20 ceiling speakers only get ,left to right and frot to back, they just have more speakers to cover multiple rows.


I will be upgrading in my tiny 12x12 room to .4 soon.


I set above/slightly behind against the wall on the ceiling and the second set as middles, but cheated towards the MLP. That way I get the front to backs pans I am missing with a .2 system.


My current .2 reciever asks if they are front ceiling,middle ceiling or rear ceiling as the 3 possible locations for the .2

I am sure a .4 will ask the same questions.......


So, .4 gets you all the content features of Atmos, even if you have to run them a little off spec as far as location, it will be better than not having the second set overhead.....somewhere...
Awesome - thanks for the detailed response. Any thoughts between JBL vs. RSL for the in-ceiling speakers?

Also, any specific recommendations on speakers for surrounds and rears? I am currently using my old & tiny Polks for surrounds...
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post #45238 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9985 View Post
From everything I have read, voicing/matching of Atmos speakers to the rest of your speakers doesn't matter much, if you go with .4, just get 2 pairs of the same model. There is a massive thread about Atmos speakers with lot of recommendations, I'm not a good source as I have bottom-of-the-line upward firing .2 setup at the moment - playing with Atmos Helicopter demo this weekend made it painfully obvious how bad my room/ceiling is for upward firing. If you get 4 decent downward firing speakers positioned properly and calibrated using Audessey, Atmos will sound great.
I see. Thanks for the heads up regarding the speaker thread - I will make sure to go through it.
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post #45239 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9985 View Post
From everything I have read, voicing/matching of Atmos speakers to the rest of your speakers doesn't matter much, if you go with .4, just get 2 pairs of the same model. There is a massive thread about Atmos speakers with lot of recommendations, I'm not a good source as I have bottom-of-the-line upward firing .2 setup at the moment - playing with Atmos Helicopter demo this weekend made it painfully obvious how bad my room/ceiling is for upward firing. If you get 4 decent downward firing speakers positioned properly and calibrated using Audessey, Atmos will sound great.


I am FWIW will be trying the SVS Prime elevations. I am not a fan of in ceiling for me it had to be on ceiling. Those speakers with their angled baffle and mounting flush to ceiling seems interesting.


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post #45240 of 46466 Old 05-30-2017, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
so so, but I think that's because I have a popcorn ceiling, not sure though.
Definitely a contributor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
Thanks for the suggestion about 5.1.4, which is very useful. I was quite confused about it. You are right in that if I add an amp, I can convert it to a 7.1.4, which is what I will likely do. I was leaning towards the JBL in-ceiling speakers since the rest of my speakers are JBL, but I am reading that the RSL's are vastly better, but I am still trying to confirm if this is the case.
So, for Atmos duty - I don't think it is nearly as critical - I think sticking with JBLs is fine. RSLs, though I've never heard them, have a lot of happy owners on this forum. Company has great policies and philosophy, and not expensive so absolutely worth considering. YES - I'd worry about in-ceiling speakers a lot more IF they were my only option - in other words - in-ceilings as my main music listening speakers, center channel. I certainly can't say they are vastly better, RSLs vs. JBLs, I'd let somebody with actual experience with both make that claim.
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5.2.4 System....Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60; Power Distribution: Panamax M5400-PM;
Mains:
Paradigm 85F and 55C (Piano Black); Side Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III (Dusk); Amplification: D-Sonic M3-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w);
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Sony BDP S-470, Pioneer CLD-59
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