The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 152 - AVS Forum
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post #4531 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Except it is in the AVR. At least that is what I was told - straight question, straight reply. And as Roger points out, if it was in the speakers, then Audyssey etc would do it's darndest to EQ it out. Obviously I wasn't there when Scott asked his question but I see no reason to suppose that the reply from Dolby, LA somehow trumps the reply from Dolby, London, especially when the latter makes the most sense.

But yes, one could say there was some inconsistency between the answer Scott received and the answer I received - but I wasn't referring to Scott of course as, until now, I hadn't seen his answer

The other point of course is what sense does it make to do DSP in the speaker when it can easily be done in the AVR, thus removing a potential source of problem and error? By which I mean that Dolby are licensing AVR makers and checking they are conforming to specs. That is impossible wrt to speakers as anyone can make a speaker that looks like an Atmos module - do we think Dolby would allow their entire upward firing Atmos concept to be FUBARed by a speaker maker who didn't 'bother to include' the required DSP?

and


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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I asked Dolby, London, on Wednesday. I have already told you what they said. If you don't believe them, or me, then you will have to find out for yourself from a source you do believe. Meanwhile, you aren't really adding much to the discussion.



Kind of hard to miss Scott's and Sanjay's conversation about the issue when you responded to posting #4422 earlier today!


Posting 4422 on this thread:

The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
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post #4532 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
I would move the couch forwards by 2' which would make 7.1 possible. Prime* RS/LS should be slightly ahead of MLP at +/- 78 degs.

Back surrounds will probably need to be closer to eachother than theory dictates sitting this close, perhaps at 160-170 degs and a bit higher up.

* any more speakers for those channels should arrive somewhat later in time by having longer distances.
Thank you, if I ever feel like adding BSR and BSL and I see if I can make it work. For now though I'm rockin crystal clear 5.1 with Klipschorns.

Sony KDL-70R550A (passive 3D tv)
Denon x4000 (amazing sound correcting software)
Klipsch RF-62IIs (amazing horns)
Klipsch RC-62II (so clear)
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post #4533 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UKTexan View Post
Mogorf,


I'm sure Keith is well aware what DSP stands for. Your statement is a little sweeping, arguably some of the best loudspeakers in the world are digital and use DSP internally, Meridian.........


https://www.meridian-audio.com/en/co...oudspeaker/47/


Thank you for your attention.
Digital speakers make digital sound for digital people to enjoy digital.
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post #4534 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
They should, because sound is 50% of the total movie experience. ...Spatial Immersion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It's more like 60%...
I think it's even more; compare the emotional impact of an action scene with picture and no sound vs. sound and no picture.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Just don't be surprised when speakers in front of you and behind you don't sound like they're above you.
Are phantom images not created for height speakers forward and behind the listening position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
The actual size of the space is not really relevant. Two ceiling speakers only form a one-dimentional line so they can only produce sound coming from the line between them. Four ceiling speakers form a two-dimentional plane, hence the sound they produce can come from anywhere on that plane. It will be far superior.
I don't think it will be that bad; together with front and back speakers sounds can occur on an arced surface.
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post #4535 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:01 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Digital speakers make digital sound for digital people to enjoy digital.

"Sometimes I park in handicap spaces
while handicapped people
make handicapped faces. I'm an ***hole!"

--Dennis Leary
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post #4536 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Yes, DD+ can do higher bitrates and it might even do more single objects than TrueHD.
It is lossy but who cares if it's good enough.
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Markus never said he likes it. Please stick to what I've said and don't make up things.
Ok Markus.
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post #4537 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
You're saying DD+ is like MP3? That's like saying HEVC is like MPEG1.

DD runs from 32kbps to 640kbps. DD+ goes from 32kbps to 6144kbps but is designed for extremely low bitrate applications (i.e. streaming) and to overcome the 5.1 channel limitation of DD
Hi Peter,

THX for the info.
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post #4538 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Are phantom images not created for height speakers forward and behind the listening position?
From the front wall to the back wall? Try it some time.

Sanjay
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post #4539 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It is true that the AVR manufacturers can choose not to implement Dolby Surround if they wish - I covered that in my last report. The question is, why would they not want to implement it? If any of them made an Atmos unit and chose not to include DS, then they would presumably incorporate Prologic, but I really can’t see the point of that - you'd have an Atmos-capable AVR but no ability to upmix legacy content to Atmos speaker sets. Who would buy an AVR like that?
Very true, without Dolby Surround "upmixer" you are not 'elevated' no more. ...With legacy audio content. ...Which makes no sense to be a first generation Dolby Atmos adopter, and not having it.

_______


* bargervais; in your new onkyo 737 Dolby Atmos ready AV receiver,
do you have a Dolby Surround decoder/upmixer? /// If not, too bad. IMO
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post #4540 of 15452 Old 08-17-2014, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Ah yes, "Dolby Surround". Not to be confused with Dolby Surround!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround
The former, from 1982. ...The later, from 2014, with Dolby Atmos receivers and surround sound processors.
...Same name, different times, different technologies, different advancement, more elevated now, 3D sound.
...Before, 2D horizontal. ...Today, horizontal, plus vertical, 3D.
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post #4541 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:00 AM
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On a complete departure from all of this back and forth (which isn't going to change how the products or codec work IMO ) I'm happy to finally report I've finally got some audio bliss coming back in my life.

We moved in March and had to liquidate all of my HT gear. Since I knew what was coming there was no sense to buy anything... Until now.

Yamaha RX-A3040 on the way.

Pioneer 5.1.4 speakers pre-ordered.
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post #4542 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
None taken. In the grand scheme of things, if it works, it works irrespective of where the extra height effects processing is done. I agree. I would also think that this would take place in the receiver or pre-amp/processor and not in the "Atmos" speaker itself. It just seems more logical.

And yet, if you look at what some reports of experiences and thoughts from these Dolby demo/meet n' greet press events have talked about, like Scott Wilkinson's, they were getting some inconsistent information from Dolby (compared to what you and others have talked about on this and other threads), and the presentations themselves seemed to have 100% totally different opinions and outcomes about what were the better height effect speakers ("enabled" or in-ceiling), etc. based on said home theater demos. That makes me curious as to what caused this total 180 discrepancy.

The placement and "calibration" of their ceiling speakers didn't seem to be as well thought out either (compared to discussions on this board). They're aimed straight down at the ground, for one thing. Are they consciously trying to play-up the Atmos enabled speakers? I'm just not sure what their motivation was here? And yet Scott's "team" agreed that the ceiling surrounds were the more effective means of reproducing the height effects. Again, a complete reversal of Keith's (and others') group experiences.

More than one person has mentioned that the movie demo material (especially the Star Trek clip) didn't highlight Atmos' benefits very well (compared to the other "unmentionable" movie clip that Keith heard) and their cinema auditoriums were playing material too loudly and were harsh sounding. That diminished the effectiveness of the demos.

You would admit that Dolby needs to address some of these issues, if this is indeed the case. Wouldn't they want to show home Atmos (a fine technology, I'm sure) and the Atmos format in general in the best light possible?
In the NorthSky of things it would make the utmost (atmos) sense.

Also because if people can build their own speakers: If them Dolby Atmos speakers were DSPed inside their own enclosures from the crossover network in the analog domain, then we wouldn't be able to choose our own designated or custom-made build coaxial speakers for Dolby Atmos overhead speakers or up-firing module Dolby Atmos speakers.

Maybe! Maybe the overhead ceiling speakers are DSP processed (digital domain) in the Dolby Atmos receivers, and the up-firing modules are ASP processed (analog domain) in the speaker modules themselves? ...Or vice versa?

Do the Dolby Atmos people know what's happening exactly? ...We've got to know some more...
And the same with Dolby Surround; like having demos with it because it is one of the most (atmos) important features in the first generation of Dolby Atmos AV receivers and Surround Sound Processors (SSPs). If some manufacturers decide to not include this very important surround sound audio decoder in their first gen products, then they'll be doing a big disfavor to their first customers. ...Me truly thinks.
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post #4543 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Dan.. no offense but this detail (how they process audio for the enabled speakers) is hardly important to how the system works as whole (except for those that think they can build their own up firing speakers, which would be relegated to the few here..)
Perhaps more than you'd think Marc.
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post #4544 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post
So for people going with physical in or on ceiling speakers, is in ceiling poor choice if they can not be aimed? Ideally they should not point straight down? Or it's ok if the dispersion angle is wide?

Thanks
Dolby Atmos people seem to aim them straight down. I'm sure they know what they're doing because those overhead speakers have their own mounting brackets with the option to be aimed @ different places.
So if they chose a straight down aiming it has to be a logical reason. ...My guess is that they are of the wide dispersion type speakers, and if aiming them @ the MLP (main listening area position) they might be too prominent and less immersing. ...And perhaps the reason why some people prefer the up-firing modules instead, with a greater sense of envelopment without calling due attention as to their directional origin.

Is that make some reasonable sense, anyone?

* Plus my previous theory (she still stands, by my own account) on the dual beams effect (sound beam).
...The first beam of sound going towards the ceiling, and the second beam of sound, being reflected by the ceiling's surface, going towards the MLP and its surroundings. ...Two beams of sound multiplied by four up-firing speakers are much more immersing/enveloping 3D wise than just one beam of sound multiplied by four overhead speakers. It's acoustical physics, covering a wider area in a more diffuse/infuse sound envelopment without precise localisation and with better object rendition in a more spatial three-dimensional cocoon.
Our brain is part of the entire processing with DSP in an HRTF (Head-Related Transfer Function) derivative algorithm.

ASP (Analog Signal Processing); I just don't know.

And we also know about the notch filter applied @ 10kHz. ...And the 180Hz crossover.
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post #4545 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Perhaps more than you'd think Marc.
No... Not really IMO.

For the majority of the targeted consumer base, very few of which know what an AVS even is, they won't have the inclination or the where with all to do it.

As much as we all get wrapped up in this forum, I've never made the mistake to think it's indicative of the "real world" consumers.

Looking at this thread, the majority of constant, frequent contributors numbers in the teens... Even with the lurkers, I have a feeling there isn't a large base of people who are interested in building their own speakers vs. consumers who will buy them at Best Buy, etc. afrer getting demos there....

Just my .02.
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post #4546 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Dan.. no offense but this detail (how they process audio for the enabled speakers) is hardly important to how the system works as whole (except for those that think they can build their own up firing speakers, which would be relegated to the few here..)
Not just building... anyone who have a few speakers leftofter that the might want to use even if they aren't optimal... but if there is a need of some complex network inside the speakers, it would be good to know it's not even worth trying.

"My dad has an old pair of bookshelves that he doesn't use, why don't we use those?"

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post #4547 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:06 AM
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Arrow Phantom imaging...

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
From the front wall to the back wall? Try it some time.
With your head turned sideways @ 90° in either direction,
from facing straight forward @ the front center channel speaker (screen display)?
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post #4548 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Keith, kind of hard to miss Scott's and Sanjay's conversation about the issue when you responded to posting #4422 earlier today!

Posting 4422 on this thread:

The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
As I already mentioned: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26625329
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post #4549 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
On a complete departure from all of this back and forth (which isn't going to change how the products or codec work IMO ) I'm happy to finally report I've finally got some audio bliss coming back in my life.

We moved in March and had to liquidate all of my HT gear. Since I knew what was coming there was no sense to buy anything... Until now.

Yamaha RX-A3040 on the way.

Pioneer 5.1.4 speakers pre-ordered.
I love Yamaha! ...Always have. ...Congratulations Marc!

♦ And Andrew Jones is a smart speaker's designer. ...For the common mortals, down-to-earth value oriented people; us. ...Quality sound performance not missing one bit.
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post #4550 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
No... Not really IMO.

For the majority of the targeted consumer base, very few of which know what an AVS even is, they won't have the inclination or the where with all to do it.

As much as we all get wrapped up in this forum, I've never made the mistake to think it's indicative of the "real world" consumers.

Looking at this thread, the majority of constant, frequent contributors numbers in the teens... Even with the lurkers, I have a feeling there isn't a large base of people who are interested in building their own speakers vs. consumers who will buy them at Best Buy, etc. afrer getting demos there....

Just my .02.
Yes, but AVS is only a glimpse of the entire full picture; there are about six thousand+ other audio/video forums on the Wide World Web.

Just my two and half senses.
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post #4551 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Not just building... anyone who have a few speakers leftover that the might want to use even if they aren't optimal... but if there is a need of some complex network inside the speakers, it would be good to know it's not even worth trying.

"My dad has an old pair of bookshelves that he doesn't use, why don't we use those?"
E.x.a.c.t.e.m.e.n.t.e. ------ ...And save some m.o.n.e.y.
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post #4552 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:40 AM
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Some Atmos first impressions from 'Sound & Vision' Magazine ...

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/dolby-atmos-moves
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post #4553 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
And yet, if you look at what some reports of experiences and thoughts from these Dolby demo/meet n' greet press events have talked about, like Scott Wilkinson's, they were getting some inconsistent information from Dolby (compared to what you and others have talked about on this and other threads), and the presentations themselves seemed to have 100% totally different opinions and outcomes about what were the better height effect speakers ("enabled" or in-ceiling), etc. based on said home theater demos. That makes me curious as to what caused this total 180 discrepancy.
I wonder if it's because both statements are true. Per the blog:
Quote:
The drivers are band limited, and special processing takes place within the Atmos engine to alter select frequencies in order to create the psychoacoustic effect
The bandlimiting function (high-pass filter) is probably inside the crossover so as to protect the little drivers in case they are fed some normal audio signal. The psychoacoustic effect is in the DSP.

Certs is a breath mint. Certs us a candy mint. Both correct.
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post #4554 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I wonder if it's because both statements are true. Per the blog: The bandlimiting function (high-pass filter) is probably inside the crossover so as to protect the little drivers in case they are fed some normal audio signal. The psychoacoustic effect is in the DSP.
That's the first thing said about use of passive components in the speakers that made sense compared to being done in the DSP.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #4555 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:56 AM
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Today I installed a set of 4 Agnos™ ceiling speakers (short for "format agnostic" ). They will first be used for Illusonic Immersive Audio Processing. Then for Atmos, and who knows what may come after that. The closest one on the right is the front-right-height.


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Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs

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post #4556 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambientcafe View Post
Some Atmos first impressions from 'Sound & Vision' Magazine ...

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/dolby-atmos-moves
I like Tom; he's a straight shooter.
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post #4557 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 02:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I wonder if it's because both statements are true. Per the blog: The bandlimiting function (high-pass filter) is probably inside the crossover so as to protect the little drivers in case they are fed some normal audio signal. The psychoacoustic effect is in the DSP.

Certs is a breath mint. Certs us a candy mint. Both correct.
Does a simple high pass filter qualify as "Dolby Atmos-certified special network"?

"The handsome black modules contain a Dolby Atmos-certified special network that allows the angled full-range driver to beam sound "objects" -such as birdcalls or an aircraft- off your ceiling and into your ears."

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/mod...urce=prodClass

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #4558 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 02:45 AM
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^ That webpage also says a 3.25" driver is full range. We'll just have to wait to see what's really happening.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #4559 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 03:16 AM
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Those $249/pair full range loudspeakers are for the HTIB crowd. ...With Dolby Atmos-Certified Spatial Network Inside. ...Wall-Mount Capability! ...For people without any speakers @ all, I guess.

...They're not for the big men, with caves full of bats.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-18-2014 at 03:23 AM.
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post #4560 of 15452 Old 08-18-2014, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
As a side nit Keith, please do not use DSP in connection with speakers. DSP stands for Digital Signal Processing and as such it can only be done in the AVR until the signal is in the digital domain, while speakers are fed with analog signals, so, technically speaking in this context DSP'ing a speaker makes no sense. Thank you for your attention.
I should have said the "height cue filter in the speaker" of course, but I doubt if anyone was confused by my post.

Of course, as you probably know, I do understand what DSP is but thanks for the lesson.
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Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-18-2014 at 04:41 AM.
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