The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1522 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #45631 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Native atmos uses wides. The upmixer does not.
I didn't know that native Atmos took account of wides. Thanks for contributing to my continuing education. The idea of front wide speakers is purely academic for me anyway because, even if I had a receiver capable of driving them, I wouldn't have room for them. My current 7.2.4 setup pretty much fills us my family room, which doubles as my home theater room.
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post #45632 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 07:25 AM
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I'm having a tough time finding answers to specific questions in this monstrous thread.

For a multi-row theater, is the idea to try to put top speakers so that they fall within the 30 degrees to 55 degrees range for both rows? That is, the middle set of speakers in a 7.1.6 setup would ideally be 45 behind the front row and 45 in front of the second row? My setup would actually put the speakers about 37 degrees behind the front row and 35 degrees in front of the second row.

The Dolby diagrams don't seem to match once you get above 7.1.4. E.g., the layout on the dolby site for a 24.x.10 looks like they've evenly spaced the top speakers, with no regard for where they fall with respect to the listener. My guess is, as you add more tops, specific location doesn't matter as much, but that's just a guess.

I'm only going to be running a 7.1.4 setup, so would I be better off just optimizing for the front row where my MLP is?

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post #45633 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
For a multi-row theater, is the idea to try to put top speakers so that they fall within the 30 degrees to 55 degrees range for both rows? That is, the middle set of speakers in a 7.1.6 setup would ideally be 45 behind the front row and 45 in front of the second row?
IF both rows are important to you, then I wouldn't worry about specific numbers and instead approach the placement problem by thinking of what I want all the listeners to hear. Three pairs of heights is an opportunity to separate sounds above that are in front, behind, and directly overhead. So one pair of heights should go well forward of both rows. The second pair should be heard as clearly rearward of both rows. The third pair should sound like it's overhead; so maybe mount that pair in between the rows. Yeah, it won't be directly above anyone's head, but it will sound more "overhead" than the other two pairs. This will allow you to sit in either row and clearly separate sounds above you as being in front, behind and overhead. You don't need to use specific elevation numbers or angles to figure that out. Atmos doesn't.

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post #45634 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
IF both rows are important to you, then I wouldn't worry about specific numbers and instead approach the placement problem by thinking of what I want all the listeners to hear. Three pairs of heights is an opportunity to separate sounds above that are in front, behind, and directly overhead. So one pair of heights should go well forward of both rows. The second pair should be heard as clearly rearward of both rows. The third pair should sound like it's overhead; so maybe mount that pair in between the rows. Yeah, it won't be directly above anyone's head, but it will sound more "overhead" than the other two pairs. This will allow you to sit in either row and clearly separate sounds above you as being in front, behind and overhead. You don't need to use specific elevation numbers or angles to figure that out. Atmos doesn't.
This is exactly how my 3 pairs of overheads are positioned for my two rows of seating...
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post #45635 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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For now, I want the best sound I can get for the front row with only four overhead speakers, but I'd like to position my speakers as best I can should I ever get to upgrade to a 7.1.6 setup.

That in mind, assuming I'll be stuck with only 7.1.4 for several years, would you recommend I use that middle row of speakers between the two rows or go ahead an put my rear overheads behind the 2nd row? Will putting the rear overheads that far back from the front row give me poor results?

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post #45636 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I never implied that my FW were at or even near 60° azimuth (remember what I said about compromises?). In fact, they are at the front of the room alongside the mains; but they serve my purpose to enlarge the front sound stage for orchestral music and to partially compensate for my rearward side surrounds.



Hmm.

Why not... place the left and right where the wides are then? That will certainly decrease the size of the gap from front to side surrounds.

EDIT: Sorry. Not trying to critique your system with this. Just wondering, since you are doing it the way you are, if you can maybe get the sound you want with two less speakers. I was pretty happy when I found that I could get the sound I wanted with only four overhead speakers instead of six. I thought six would be the way to go but I actually thought less sounded better. Possibly because the six were of slight compromise too? Hard to say... without trying for yourself, I mean.

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post #45637 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I didn't know that native Atmos took account of wides. Thanks for contributing to my continuing education. The idea of front wide speakers is purely academic for me anyway because, even if I had a receiver capable of driving them, I wouldn't have room for them. My current 7.2.4 setup pretty much fills us my family room, which doubles as my home theater room.
Native Atmos supports up to 34 speakers for HT's, 24 around and 10 above.

I love the immersive bubble produced in my 9.1.6 system.

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post #45638 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
For now, I want the best sound I can get for the front row with only four overhead speakers, but I'd like to position my speakers as best I can should I ever get to upgrade to a 7.1.6 setup.
You already know that with a 5.1 set-up, the single pair of surrounds go somewhere between the sides and rears of a 7.1 set-up. Upgrading to 7.1 isn't just a matter of placing a second pair of surrounds in the back, you also move the original pair of surrounds forward to get some rear-vs-side separation in the surround field. Same with going from 7.1.4 to 7.1.6: it isn't just a matter of dropping a third pair between the original two. The original two pairs will also move locations.
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That in mind, assuming I'll be stuck with only 7.1.4 for several years, would you recommend I use that middle row of speakers between the two rows or go ahead an put my rear overheads behind the 2nd row? Will putting the rear overheads that far back from the front row give me poor results?
Speaker placement is usually based on the location of the listener(s), so placement for one row will be different than placement for two rows. IF you want to optimize for a single row, then I would do the typical placement of roughly 45 degrees elevation forward & rearward of that row, without worrying about how it will sound in the other row. Understand that this placement will be different when using 6 speakers above AND optimizing for both rows. You're changing two variables.

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post #45639 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 10:11 AM
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Awesome! Thanks for the feedback. Now I just have to get it all put together

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post #45640 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Hmm.

Why not... place the left and right where the wides are then? That will certainly decrease the size of the gap from front to side surrounds.

EDIT: Sorry. Not trying to critique your system with this. Just wondering, since you are doing it the way you are, if you can maybe get the sound you want with two less speakers. I was pretty happy when I found that I could get the sound I wanted with only four overhead speakers instead of six. I thought six would be the way to go but I actually thought less sounded better. Possibly because the six were of slight compromise too? Hard to say... without trying for yourself, I mean.
As they say, great (and weak) minds think alike.

I have already anticipated doing just that if my next AVR does not support FW; and in that case I would take those floorstanding Polk Audio RTiA5's and substitute them for the OWM5 satellites in my surrounds (thereby moving the surrounds forward another 9 or 10 inches due to the increased cabinet depth). But in the meantime, "mo' speakers, mo' better" (© batpig).

Eventually I will probably swap out the surrounds anyway, whether with the repurposed RTiA5s or with a second pair.

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post #45641 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
For now, I want the best sound I can get for the front row with only four overhead speakers, but I'd like to position my speakers as best I can should I ever get to upgrade to a 7.1.6 setup.

That in mind, assuming I'll be stuck with only 7.1.4 for several years, would you recommend I use that middle row of speakers between the two rows or go ahead an put my rear overheads behind the 2nd row? Will putting the rear overheads that far back from the front row give me poor results?
Installing 3 pairs of overheads as described by @sdurani and myself above provides some flexibility as well. If your current preference is first row importance, configure the TF's and TM's as front and rear overheads for the first row. If your preference later changes to include both rows, then designate the TF's and TR's as the front and rear overheads. If and when 7.X.6 becomes a reality, TF's, TM's, and TR's will all be in place to accommodate it. It may be beneficial to consider wiring and installing all six overheads at this point.

Note: As @sdurani indicated, this will not be optimal for 7.X.6 but will put you in the ballpark and provide a "real world feel" for what final/ultimate placement should be.

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post #45642 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 11:23 AM
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Installing 3 pairs of overheads as described by @sdurani and myself above provides some flexibility as well. If your current preference is first row importance, configure the TF's and TM's as front and rear overheads for the first row. If your preference later changes to include both rows, then designate the TF's and TR's as the front and rear overheads. If and when 7.X.6 becomes a reality, TF's, TM's, and TR's will all be in place to accommodate it. It may be beneficial to consider wiring and installing all six overheads at this point.

I like it.

It must be somewhat obvious that if you are building a multi-row theater that one of those rows will be your "favorite". I would optimize for that row.
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post #45643 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 11:31 AM
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I like it.

It must be somewhat obvious that if you are building a multi-row theater that one of those rows will be your "favorite". I would optimize for that row.
Yep...afterall...the MLP is the MLP!
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post #45644 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 11:54 AM
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Yep...afterall...the MLP is the MLP!
Sometimes I wonder about the wonderful and continuous guest list people have for their HT's....

I can't even fill my own couch all the way.
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post #45645 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 12:27 PM
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I like it.

It must be somewhat obvious that if you are building a multi-row theater that one of those rows will be your "favorite". I would optimize for that row.
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Yep...afterall...the MLP is the MLP!

Well, yes and no. I've found that I like the front row best for movies, but I'm leaning a bit towards the second row for gaming. I only have a little time with any gaming, so I may gravitate back to the front row with that as well, but it's a BIG screen for gaming!

But in general I have been dialing everything in for the front row and letting the second row get what they get.

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Sometimes I wonder about the wonderful and continuous guest list people have for their HT's....

I can't even fill my own couch all the way.
haha! Yeah, we have the same problem. The only exception is when we have friends over with kids. We'll turn on a movie in the theater for the kids to keep them occupied.

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post #45646 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 01:08 PM
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I need to surface mount four volt-6 speakers to my ceiling for ATMOS. My room is built with isolation clips, hat channel, and double drywall, so I can't screw directly into the joists above. Does anyone have any clever ideas for how to do that? Right now I'm leaning towards toggle bolts.


I had to do similar but I found an issue, because the ceiling is floating it resonates at around 147Hz in my case!

Something to watch out for.
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post #45647 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 01:16 PM
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I had to do similar but I found an issue, because the ceiling is floating it resonates at around 147Hz in my case!

Something to watch out for.
That's interesting. Did the resonance start after you added the speakers, or was it just more apparent?

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post #45648 of 46465 Old 07-14-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I need to surface mount four volt-6 speakers to my ceiling for ATMOS. My room is built with isolation clips, hat channel, and double drywall, so I can't screw directly into the joists above. Does anyone have any clever ideas for how to do that? Right now I'm leaning towards toggle bolts.



as some have done . . .

remove the driver, mount the toggle bolts thru the back panel . . .

or bodacious anchors
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post #45649 of 46465 Old 07-15-2017, 12:13 PM
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Passengers: cool sound effect :)

Did anyone else notice a totally awsome panning sound effect in this scene from Passengers?

It start at the 1 minute of this clip, and is a Rrrrrrr kind of sound in the music, pitching up and down. And it pans TOTALLY seamless and stable around you in a complete circle, over and over. Coolest thing ever!

Unfortunately it is low level, a little in the background, but when you notice, it is wicked




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post #45650 of 46465 Old 07-15-2017, 02:30 PM
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I am currently laying out my dedicated home theater for a 5.2.4. I already have all the speakers as the Atmos was an after thought. My question is, will it be fine to have dipoles as side surrounds? I don't have an Atoms capable AVR right now so want the best of both worlds until that happens.

Also does anyone know if 2 rear in ceiling speakers should be placed behind or slightly in front of the side surrounds???
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post #45651 of 46465 Old 07-15-2017, 03:17 PM
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I am currently laying out my dedicated home theater for a 5.2.4. I already have all the speakers as the Atmos was an after thought. My question is, will it be fine to have dipoles as side surrounds? I don't have an Atoms capable AVR right now so want the best of both worlds until that happens.

Also does anyone know if 2 rear in ceiling speakers should be placed behind or slightly in front of the side surrounds???
They need to be placed slightly in front of the side surrounds, according to the atmos guide.

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post #45652 of 46465 Old 07-15-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
I am currently laying out my dedicated home theater for a 5.2.4. I already have all the speakers as the Atmos was an after thought. My question is, will it be fine to have dipoles as side surrounds? I don't have an Atoms capable AVR right now so want the best of both worlds until that happens.
Well, maybe. You already have them though, so I guess you will find out!! Depends somewhat on environment and taste.

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Also does anyone know if 2 rear in ceiling speakers should be placed behind or slightly in front of the side surrounds???
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They need to be placed slightly in front of the side surrounds, according to the atmos guide.
Although that is how it is shown pictorially, the angular realities might be different. My "side" surrounds are well-forward of the rear Atmos speakers, and the rear Atmos speakers are forward of their ideal location based on the Dolby recommendations. It sounds excellent. Would it be better if they were behind the rear Atmos speakers? Dunnon, I'll never know as that placement is totally impossible in my situation.

Jer, this is a personal opinion, but I'd place your Atmos speakers as close to ideal per the Dolby spec. as you can. Are your sides going to be wall-mounted, or on stands? If the later, just play with it! See where it sounds best to YOU. I'm going to bet it'll sound just fine if they are forward of the rear Atmos speakers.

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post #45653 of 46465 Old 07-15-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Well, maybe. You already have them though, so I guess you will find out!! Depends somewhat on environment and taste.





Although that is how it is shown pictorially, the angular realities might be different. My "side" surrounds are well-forward of the rear Atmos speakers, and the rear Atmos speakers are forward of their ideal location based on the Dolby recommendations. It sounds excellent. Would it be better if they were behind the rear Atmos speakers? Dunnon, I'll never know as that placement is totally impossible in my situation.

Jer, this is a personal opinion, but I'd place your Atmos speakers as close to ideal per the Dolby spec. as you can. Are your sides going to be wall-mounted, or on stands? If the later, just play with it! See where it sounds best to YOU. I'm going to bet it'll sound just fine if they are forward of the rear Atmos speakers.
Yes, I agree, it's just how close you can get to the atmos spec as possible. Sometimes it's not possible, based on your room and have to o with what you can.

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post #45654 of 46465 Old 07-16-2017, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
That's interesting. Did the resonance start after you added the speakers, or was it just more apparent?


The resonance only shows in the ceiling mounted speakers and only appeared when they were installed. YPAO puts a huge null there which helps but not really a full solution. I started to notice after I got the atmos version of gravity, George Clooney's voice really sets it off.
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post #45655 of 46465 Old 07-16-2017, 10:32 PM
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Are any/all of the receivers out there with Atmos capable of defining where you put your speakers? In other words, if you bought a 7.1.2 receiver could you tell it to have one (mono) height speaker in the front of the room and one in the back of the room instead of left/right (stereo) only in the front? I'm looking at receivers now but it's not clear to me how flexible the system is (as currently implemented).

I was under the impression that Atmos itself doesn't care what kind of crazy arrangement of speakers you want to set up; you just tell it where the speakers are for a given number of channels and if a given sound effect is in that area it pans between the nearest speakers as needed for the effect. But reading any number of Atmos receiver threads, it sounds like most models are set up with RIGID configurations that are nearly exactly like the channel based rigidity that Atmos was supposed to eliminate (i.e. if you buy a receiver with 5.1.4 capability, you MUST use 4 channels for height and they MUST be left/right pairs; you can't just space wider dispersion speakers in a straight line across a 30 foot room and tell the receiver to do ultra-smooth pans down a 4 speaker line in a row. It seems like that should be EXACTLY what you could do with 4 height channels, but then why should a 5.1.4 setup need to have 4 height channels? Why not two extra pairs of side surrounds on a long room or some floor speakers? Just tell the Atmos decoder where you put your speakers and it uses them as-is, right? No? If not, what's the freaking point of an effect based system instead of a channel one if you have to use some pre-defined rigid standards?

The problem is, of course, that 7.1.4 systems aren't exactly cheap and yet 5.1.4 isn't entirely desirable when you've already set up for a 6.1 or 7.1 setup and you have more movies in 7.1 than Atmos, but having 7.1.2 instead leaves you with height only in the front of the room (the helicopter suddenly sounds like landed/crashed when it moves into the back of the room because the only speakers back there are at ear level?)

I'm currently using a 6.1 setup because that's what fits in my room (there's a sliding door and an addition behind it in the back of the room that all but makes it impossible to do a 7.1 setup without blocking the doorway area, but 6.1 works well with a center rear speaker). I'm using an old Yamaha receiver that pre-dates Atmos and even HD-MA/True-HD formats and I'm looking to upgrade my sound system now that I upgraded my projector from a 10-year old Panasonic PT-AX100U to an Epson 3100. My speakers are PSB Image models (3 identical L/C/R B12 satellites with S50 side-wall bipole surrounds and another B12 in the rear center position) with a Def Tech Powerfield 1500 sub. There is a Imagine S surround by PSB I could swap out to that offers a "7.1" mode (front baffle drivers are side surround and back baffle drivers are rear surround) that could get around my 7.1 issue in a way, but I don't really know how "good" that would sound like that (it might just sound more like a two foot difference between the channels for all I know instead of sounding like it's coming from the back area of the room). I don't really want to mount height channel speakers on the ceiling either. PSB makes a newer XA Atmos enabled speaker that bounces off the ceiling and in my room would probably work well, but given the expense of the 7.1.4 receivers (often needing another amp to boot) it seems like you could get 80% of the effect of 7.1.4 if you could only set a 7.1.2 receiver to use the height channels as mono front/back instead of stereo one zone left/right. But somehow I doubt the likelihood that many (if any) receivers can configure such a setup. So I figure this is the place to ask from people that have used these Atmos based receivers and know what their capabilities are.

Ideally, a 6.1.2 configuration would work best in my room with an XA speaker on the center middle and the rear middle to reflect evenly back to the listening area for height. 7.1.2 would require getting the aforementioned Imagine S surrounds (only real place there's room for them) and 7.1.4 would need two sets of XAs and again, I'd have the placement issue in the back of the room (either little to no separation of the speakers or I'd be blocking the sliding glass door which opens to one side of the back wall, not in the middle or anything). It's not ideal, but then that far back in the room the side surrounds panning to a rear center gives some left/right clues and up until now 90% of my movies don't even make use of 7.1 or 6.1 (I think I have 5 DTS-ES 6.1 titles, several EX faked ones and maybe two dozen 7.1 titles (with or without Atmos and/or DTS:X) that I can't take advantage of until I get a new receiver.

While 5.1.4 might work (although with some placement issues of the rear speakers unless I could aim them from behind my couch area to bounce the ceiling in reverse and still sound right somehow), going down from even 6.1 to 5.1 is a loss (e.g. Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children does have a DTS-ES core (at least my 3D BD does) and and an object lands in the back of the room at one point in the movie. In 5.1 it couldn't land anywhere but just behind my couch instead at best (room layout has couch in center, surrounds on side walls just behind the couch and a rear center speaker in the back of the room and normal L/C/R identical channels sitting underneath the 93" dropdown screen in the front of the room).
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post #45656 of 46465 Old 07-16-2017, 11:18 PM
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Well I suppose you can put the ceiling speakers anyway you want it, but the really are meant to be on the right or on the left for best accurate positioning immersion. On my receiver, it gives you the option to either do height(in top of the front speakers) and of course 2 more on the rear, overhead mode which is the atmos way, and Dolby enabled sp(those speakers you place on top of the mains and shoot up bouncing the sound down). I also come from a 6.1 setup that I liked very much and didn't want to give up when I go new receiver and do 5.2.4. Ran 6.2.2 for a while and I found a cheap pair of detects to add up top and dock 4 ceiling speakers. I can honestly say I don't regret it one bit. I thought I would miss the rear back channel, but the rear ceiling speakers kind make up for it and just fills up the top so nice. Now I know why people kept saying to go with 5.2.4 for the full immersion, and of course, they were right.

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post #45657 of 46465 Old 07-17-2017, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
The resonance only shows in the ceiling mounted speakers and only appeared when they were installed. YPAO puts a huge null there which helps but not really a full solution. I started to notice after I got the atmos version of gravity, George Clooney's voice really sets it off.
Sorry if you have already analyzed this. Is there a way to tell if this is due to the ceiling movement vs the acoustics of the speaker/room? If it's the ceiling moving, then bracing it with something like a pole to the floor (just for a temporary test) would significantly reduce it. If doing so does not alter the sound quality, then it's not the ceiling's vibration, but something else. I'd be very curious to better understand the mechanism affecting the sound.
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post #45658 of 46465 Old 07-17-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Sorry if you have already analyzed this. Is there a way to tell if this is due to the ceiling movement vs the acoustics of the speaker/room? If it's the ceiling moving, then bracing it with something like a pole to the floor (just for a temporary test) would significantly reduce it. If doing so does not alter the sound quality, then it's not the ceiling's vibration, but something else. I'd be very curious to better understand the mechanism affecting the sound.


I don't have a suitable pole although I guess a broom handle might damp it a bit and give some idea!

I have the same speakers for surround and rear surround and they don't resonate in the same way, that's why I'm blaming the suspended ceiling.
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post #45659 of 46465 Old 07-17-2017, 02:59 PM
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Red face ATMOS movie availability

Sorry, but I haven't read the 2 million posts in this thread. Where do I rent Atmos movies - streaming, Redbox, but not buying?

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post #45660 of 46465 Old 07-17-2017, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rondog32837 View Post
Sorry, but I haven't read the 2 million posts in this thread. Where do I rent Atmos movies - streaming, Redbox, but not buying?
Redbox and Netflix (mail delivery) rental services will have Atmos.... EXCEPT for titles from Lionsgate which is the only studio that "cripples" the audio of their rentals to regular Dolby Digital 5.1.

Bookmark this page which lists all BD titles with Dolby Atmos: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=248132

If you click on an image of a title it will take you to the details page which will list the studio. Lionsgate = no bueno. However, anything else (Universal, Warner, Paramount, Sony, Fox, etc) will still have Atmos on the rental.

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