The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1536 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #46051 of 46465 Old 08-17-2017, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
but they are bass managing only the surrounds and using subwoofers physically co-located with their respective surround speakers (i.e. left side of the auditorium for left surround, right side for right, ceiling for the ceiling arrays).
Does the CP850 also has a feed for a ceiling subwoofer? The Atmos Specifications only mention a left and right surround sub woofer as part of its bass management.

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post #46052 of 46465 Old 08-17-2017, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Does the CP850 also has a feed for a ceiling subwoofer? The Atmos Specifications only mention a left and right surround sub woofer as part of its bass management.
That is probably a mistake on my part - my local Atmos cinema has the surround subwoofers in the ceiling, but now that you mention it I think those are the subs for the left and right surrounds as well.
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post #46053 of 46465 Old 08-17-2017, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
That is probably a mistake on my part - my local Atmos cinema has the surround subwoofers in the ceiling, but now that you mention it I think those are the subs for the left and right surrounds as well.
And I didn't even had my first coffee yet...

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post #46054 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 03:23 AM
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Question Did you notice any vertical on-screen sound steering yet?

Monitoring the activity of all 7 front speakers simultaneously (LCR, Lsc/Rsc, Lc/Rc), I have noticed horizontal on-screen sound steering, where sounds are connected to visual objects positioned between L/R and Center speaker. Since with larger projection screens the first pair of overheads (at home the front heights speakers) are positioned close to the screen, mixers might have started using those for positioning sound objects connected to visual objects close to the top of the screen. Anyone who did actually already witness such vertical on-screen sound steering in a commercial venue or at home?

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post #46055 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Monitoring the activity of all 7 front speakers simultaneously (LCR, Lsc/Rsc, Lc/Rc), I have noticed horizontal on-screen sound steering, where sounds are connected to visual objects positioned between L/R and Center speaker. Since with larger projection screens the first pair of overheads (at home the front heights speakers) are positioned close to the screen, mixers might have started using those for positioning sound objects connected to visual objects close to the top of the screen. Anyone who did actually already witness such vertical on-screen sound steering in a commercial venue or at home?
No way to monitor such activity on consumer level products.

I have however noticed something like that on two ocasions:

Red Tails(Auro 3D), where a plane moved at the top of the screen, and the sound followed it exactly.

Power Rangers(Atmos), when they first discover the underground/water layer, and as they move out of the water(diving downwards), the camera is shooting 90 degrees vertically(?), so up is right(on the screen), and down is left. And so the whole soundfield is rotated 90 degrees, and as such use the heights as the "right" side sounds(according to what is happening on screen). Very cool effect.
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post #46056 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Power Rangers(Atmos), when they first discover the underground/water layer, and as they move out of the water(diving downwards), the camera is shooting 90 degrees vertically(?), so up is right(on the screen), and down is left. And so the whole soundfield is rotated 90 degrees, and as such use the heights as the "right" side sounds(according to what is happening on screen). Very cool effect.
Would be interesting to check whether the '90 degrees turned right-side sound' comes exclusively from the front heights and not from the Top Fronts with both pair activated (on the same processor that is.. <for Nalleh>). Have to get that disk to check it though...

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post #46057 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
We should be very careful with our terminology here - cinemas are *still* not bass managed in the way that most of us think of as bass management. Yes, Atmos uses bass management for the surround arrays, but they are bass managing only the surrounds and using subwoofers physically co-located with their respective surround speakers (i.e. left side of the auditorium for left surround, right side for right, ceiling for the ceiling arrays). The screen channels are still full-range, and the primary subwoofer arrays are still reproducing only the LFE channel, not reproducing re-directed bass from the entire soundtrack.
Yep!

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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
It sort of did, though, at least with theatrical mixes. DTS explicitly high-passed the surrounds at 80hz, but even for Dolby Digital or, later, 5.1 or 7.1 PCM for digital cinema there was some recognition that surround arrays tended to not be full-range. I mean there may have been some mixers who disregarded this and mixed full range surrounds, but in general standard practice was to accept that the surrounds were not full range and to mix accordingly. It was only with the advent of Atmos that the mixers were told explicitly by Dolby that now the surrounds (both channels and object reproduction) are full range (because the surrounds are bass managed), and could be utilized more fully in a creative way.
Again... increased in output of these better mixes, sure. But I can go through my entire catalog of movies dating back 20 years old that have full range use of surrounds. Maybe not as much as a movie from right now but still. It's not new. Just ...better utilized now.

We have had full range surrounds, officially in digital format, since 1992. Objects didn't change anything here.


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Agreed! And despite what I said above, I really doubt whether Atmos is leading to tighter bass in our home video mixes.
Exactly.

This entire tangent sparked from a thought that Atmos increased bass tightness and even lowered in room ringing compared to non-Atmos.

But objects and surround bass management. Yeah.
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post #46058 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Yep!



Again... increased in output of these better mixes, sure. But I can go through my entire catalog of movies dating back 20 years old that have full range use of surrounds. Maybe not as much as a movie from right now but still. It's not new. Just ...better utilized now.

We have had full range surrounds, officially in digital format, since 1992. Objects didn't change anything here.




Exactly.

This entire tangent sparked from a thought that Atmos increased bass tightness and even lowered in room ringing compared to non-Atmos.

But objects and surround bass management. Yeah.


Tangents, around here? Nah, ooh look, a squirrel.
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post #46059 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 09:08 AM
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Has anyone considered the speaker location relative to the screen? At many movie theaters (less so with stadium seating), the screen is well above ear height, especially the center point. Should the surround speakers (which until Atmos and/or 7.1 weren't called "side" surrounds as directly to the sides isn't always optimal for the more diffuse effects, especially with 5.1 which is why we saw dipole and bipolar models for the home to simulate something closer to arrays of speakers and those did do better closer to the sides.

But the idea of a car going along side the listener only really makes sense if the screen is closer to eye/head level since the car position is on the screen. If that screen is well above ear level then it makes no sense to have it drive "down hill" as it moves into the back of the room. Combined with obvious benefits to avoiding hot spotting I don't see why the older rules wouldn't still apply for such installs (i.e. About 2/3 up the wall). My home theater currently still using 6.1 has bipoles (PSB S50) mounted at about 105 degrees and 2/3 up the wall. My screen center is also about even with the bottom of these speakers. Generally surround effects are in line with the screen and things like the pirate flag flapping on the Disney castle in On Stranger Tides opening sound just above my head as it flies into view on the screen from behind, right where it appears to be.

If anything, it's my front speakers sitting just under the screen that don't perfectly align with what's happening on screen, although one's brain tends to place the sound where you see it when it's close (only way to get it perfect is with an audio transparent screen with the speakers behind it like at the theater. But putting my surrounds lower will definitely lower the height relative to the screen for all effects, especially if I went with direct pointing speakers which would localize even more. Height effects are already technically overhead, although not as high as ceiling speakers would place them.

So what's more important? Do you want things to align with visuals or have more separation between surrounds and ceiling speakers with a screen that's not right at eye level? I don't think it's quite as formulaic cut and dried as some comments suggest. Clearly, some theater installs have reasons for what they're doing. That photo clearly has a projector. The screen height from that angle isn't immediately apparent in that one photo, but if it's higher than eye level like many theaters it might make at least some sense to have the surrounds higher than just above ear level so it aligns with the plane of the screen.
My screen center is 2 1/2 feet above eye/ear level. I have two center speakers with one just under the screen pointed at my ears and one at the top of the screen (5' up) pointed at my ears. Each is fed with it's own volume-adjustable amp from a "Y" connector to the pre-pro Center out. The volumes were adjusted manually to give a phantom image roughly from the center of the screen and then Eq'd by Audyssey with the rest of the speaker array. Works well for dialog, but in the example of the car moving from front to sides to rears, car sound starts high and then drops to ear level (all surrounds are at ear level) as it progresses. I have to listen for this. All in all, since dialog is the dominant mode for the center, I'm happy to lose a little vertical directionality for a front to side pan.

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post #46060 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Works well for dialog, but in the example of the car moving from front to sides to rears, car sound starts high and then drops to ear level (all surrounds are at ear level) as it progresses. I have to listen for this. All in all, since dialog is the dominant mode for the center, I'm happy to lose a little vertical directionality for a front to side pan.
You could try the surrounds at the same height as the centers for a consistent sound field. As long as they're not too high up you'll still have plenty of separation for the height channels. My bipoles are around two feet above ear level and they don't sound like a ceiling speaker or "hat" and line up with the action on the screen plus aircraft are at least overhead and not at ear level even without Atmos.

It's a little odder for some music only surround (e.g. DTS or SACD surround music discs) as the screen isn't used. A track from Alan Parsons On Air has the vocalist walking around the room with a guitar and singing and it sounds like he's about seven feet tall but then I have another system upstairs with Carver ribbons I use for music only most of the time.

Guidelines are just that. Ultimately, use what you like best not what someone else thinks you should. You're the one that's going to be listening to it not them.
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post #46061 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Would be interesting to check whether the '90 degrees turned right-side sound' comes exclusively from the front heights and not from the Top Fronts with both pair activated (on the same processor that is.. <for Nalleh>). Have to get that disk to check it though...
Agreed. But as i can not have front height and top front from one processor, i can't answer that.

In my setup, with 2 processors, both front height and top front, has to have those sounds, because as we know, all overhead sounds gets extracted from ear level, regardless of designation.

Nevertheless a very cool and creative way of doing that sound scene(i believe @FilmMixer did the sound on this movie).

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post #46062 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 12:45 PM
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Would you guys say 7.1.4 is a "handicapped" version of Atmos and that you really need a Trinnov with more than a 7.1.4 setup to accurately convey what Atmos is all about? Or is 7.1.4 adequate enough for you to "hear the whole picture"?
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post #46063 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 01:11 PM
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Would you guys say 7.1.4 is a "handicapped" version of Atmos and that you really need a Trinnov with more than a 7.1.4 setup to accurately convey what Atmos is all about?
Absolutely not.

Thankfully when the hardware supports it, one can achieve even better spatial precision if 7.1.4 doesn't do it for you.



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Or is 7.1.4 adequate enough for you to "hear the whole picture"?
I consider the four discrete overhead outputs as quite a significant upgrade from 7.1 audio.
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post #46064 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 02:35 PM
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My screen center is 2 1/2 feet above eye/ear level.
Just curious, why? What's the height of the lower C speaker?

Anyway, if voices image at ear level but cars image higher, rolling off the high frequencies of the upper speaker might help. Easier said than done, I realize. I have various analog EQs sitting around, so something like that might be worth a try. Or aiming the speaker straight out rather than down toward you. Or drop the level on the upper speaker a wee bit. Might strike a good compromise between dialog and cars. Just a thought.

If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.

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post #46065 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Would you guys say 7.1.4 is a "handicapped" version of Atmos and that you really need a Trinnov with more than a 7.1.4 setup to accurately convey what Atmos is all about? Or is 7.1.4 adequate enough for you to "hear the whole picture"?
Height speakers with 4" drivers with tweeters measured in centimeters is the handicap of Atmos. With a proper speaker that has a proper dispersion pattern, 7.1.4 should be sufficient for most rooms.
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post #46066 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 02:50 PM
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Wow. Unbelievable. That cost should be absorbed into the cost of the hardware by Microsoft.
Dolby atmos for movies & games on xbox one don't need a license fee, its only for dolby atmos headphones, i hope you UNDERSTAND what i said?
all xbox one consoles are capable of DOLBY ATMOS for films & video games for Free, can't make myself more clear now. Does ps4 have dolby atmos support for movies & games?
i m not sure it does, also for surround sound it uses some lame sony format that sounds crap.

Cheers.
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post #46067 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 02:51 PM
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Or drop the level on the upper speaker a wee bit. Might strike a good compromise between dialog and cars. Just a thought.
I use that solution. I lower the channel level on the center speaker above the screen to where it can't be heard, and then increase it again to where speach is lifted to the center of screen. Works very well, kind of like Yamaha's dialog lift.
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post #46068 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
.
If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.
I think DSP manipulation can simulate speakers in different positions to some extent, especially short distance differences.

But replace projectors? I don't see all of them being replaced at home ever really as they are so much more flexible for rooms that won't support a hanging set (or where the spouse won't allow it).

For example, my screen drops down in front of closing blackout drapes that sit in front of a window. You can't put a TV there no matter how thin or light it is, but a drop down screen works great and can be retracted completely out of the way, allowing the window to be used when not watching the projector.

You can even get screens that retract into the attic, leaving only a slit in the ceiling and projector boxes that retract into the ceiling as well leaving a room virtually untouched in appearance (speakers mounted in wall flush and equipment in a closet).

Thin screens emulate a picture frame very well, but they still have limits.
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post #46069 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.
Yamaha has had their 'Dialog Lift' feature for a long, long time.

It uses the front "presence" speakers to help push the image of the CC up higher.
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post #46070 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Would you guys say 7.1.4 is a "handicapped" version of Atmos and that you really need a Trinnov with more than a 7.1.4 setup to accurately convey what Atmos is all about? Or is 7.1.4 adequate enough for you to "hear the whole picture"?
Not by a long shot 7.1.4 should get the job done! If ever in doubt grab an Atmos demo disc as it will point to the real handicap
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post #46071 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 04:27 PM
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If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.
Hi Roger, I've always thought about that. Displays are getting larger and will probably replace projectors. However, I really appreciate a projected image, I find it soothing and easy on the eyes.

Furthermore, I still prefer DPLII for up-mixing 2 channel music to 7.1 channels, I really don't like how DSU up-mixes music to any number of channels. Can you shed some light on this Roger, I know you were part of the DPLII DNA.
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post #46072 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.

Like refining the new Sony A1 OLED screen based acoustic surface for a larger screen...

Or Samsung Cinema Screen with Harman Audio (I assume they must be leveraging some kind of Trinnov tech in there...).

The Iosono technology that let you use multiple speakers to render bed audio so there no sweet spot should be able to be fairly well suited as a starting point.

Exciting times for sure...



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post #46073 of 46465 Old 08-18-2017, 05:34 PM
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Furthermore, I still prefer DPLII for up-mixing 2 channel music to 7.1 channels, I really don't like how DSU up-mixes music to any number of channels. Can you shed some light on this Roger, I know you were part of the DPLII DNA.
I can shed on this, but it might not be light. I'm not going to do this subject justice, but that won't stop me from providing an answer.

1) The goals of the DSU and PLII designers were significantly different. PLII was designed by Jim Fosgate first as a music processor, the culmination of his many years in that pursuit. It was aimed at processing 2-ch sources into 5 outputs (and a couple years later to 7 with PLIIx). Based only on my speculative observations, DSU appears to have been designed to take 5.1 movies to "new heights" with 7.1.4 or more speakers. It does that admirably well.

2) The underlying upmixing techniques are very different. PLIIx uses wideband logic steering. The dominant sounds control the process, so less dominant sounds fall where they may -- which usually means they are redistributed. For example, the main singer stays up front but background singers spread into the surrounds. If you listen to the surrounds with the fronts muted, you still get a stereo effect.

DSU uses multiband processing. It's very sophisticated in its ability to "de-compose" sounds based on spectrum and correlation index. In some senses it works like magic, it's so adept at separating coherent elements from spatial, uncorrelated elements. That, in my opinion, is its undoing for stereo music applications. I suspect it was tasked with handling 2-ch music, partly because PLIIz could not go far enough, and partly because it was time to use technology originated within Dolby.

At the risk of gross oversimplification, with DSU the vocalist and background singers stay up front, and what is left for the surrounds is the pure uncorrelated stuff. That tends to be a directionless, amorphous cloud of sound with a tilt toward the higher frequencies (where things are naturally less correlated). If you listen to the surrounds alone, it's not mono, but it's not stereo in the usual sense either.

I hope this makes sense.

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post #46074 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 05:33 AM
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Some comments on the alleged requirement for ceiling speakers to be of the same brand/make/model as the other speakers in the room.

My experience suggests otherwise. I am no speaker designer but do have a couple of functioning ears. I have heard home theaters with "matching" ceiling speakers and those that do not have "matching' speakers. With proper placement, some rational decisions on what ceiling speaker to purchase (dispersion pattern and efficiency are important considerations) AND a reasonable room correction system (which most are), I have yet to hear ANY issues that suggest that the ceiling speakers must be of the same brand/make/model.

Up until yesterday, I was using Tannoy DI6 DC ceiling speakers and just changed them out for RSL C34E ceiling speakers. As you can see from the following plot (ignore the blue line), the FR (uncorrected - red line) at the MLP is more than satisfactory.



These are certainly not the only two speaker brands/models that will work, but only an indication that the "celling speakers MUST match" is an inaccurate position in real world applications. And, FWIW and IMHO, the RSL's are a steal at $250 per pair, shipped. And, the efficiency of both the Tannoy's (89) and the RSL's (88) were less than that of my Triad base level speakers (92).
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post #46075 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I use that solution. I lower the channel level on the center speaker above the screen to where it can't be heard, and then increase it again to where speach is lifted to the center of screen. Works very well, kind of like Yamaha's dialog lift.
This is exactly the method I used to get a phantom center of screen image.
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post #46076 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 08:04 AM
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Just curious, why? What's the height of the lower C speaker?

Anyway, if voices image at ear level but cars image higher, rolling off the high frequencies of the upper speaker might help. Easier said than done, I realize. I have various analog EQs sitting around, so something like that might be worth a try. Or aiming the speaker straight out rather than down toward you. Or drop the level on the upper speaker a wee bit. Might strike a good compromise between dialog and cars. Just a thought.

If someone could figure out a great way to get dialog to image where there's no speaker (vertically), it would be a boon to the next gen direct view screens that will eventually replace projectors.
Height of the lower center is 30" (just below the screen) angled up to ear level. I've adjusted the upper center speaker level to give a phantom image from the center of the screen, which is 2 1/2 feet above the lower center and 2 1/2 feet below the upper center. Since the surround speakers are all at ear level, a front to side to rear pan starts from the center of the screen and drops to ear level as the object moves. My observation of movies is that the moving objects tend to be at the bottom of the screen, while dialog is from the center. A single center at the usual position at the lower edge of the screen would position the sound of a moving object (car) in the right place, but wrong for dialog. I've chosen to bias for dialog, since that's always present; while moving objects are less frequent.

I was hoping that the Sony OLED with the panel as sound transducer would have an analog external input for mono use as a center speaker. It doesn't. That feature, alone, would bias me to paying the Sony premium over LG for a 79" panel for my Living Room. I see that as the best fix for a center channel for large flat panels.

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post #46077 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 08:17 AM
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Agreed. But as i can not have front height and top front from one processor, i can't answer that.
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post #46078 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Some comments on the alleged requirement for ceiling speakers to be of the same brand/make/model as the other speakers in the room.

My experience suggests otherwise. I am no speaker designer but do have a couple of functioning ears. I have heard home theaters with "matching" ceiling speakers and those that do not have "matching' speakers. With proper placement, some rational decisions on what ceiling speaker to purchase (dispersion pattern and efficiency are important considerations) AND a reasonable room correction system (which most are), I have yet to hear ANY issues that suggest that the ceiling speakers must be of the same brand/make/model.

Up until yesterday, I was using Tannoy DI6 DC ceiling speakers and just changed them out for RSL C34E ceiling speakers. As you can see from the following plot (ignore the blue line), the FR (uncorrected - red line) at the MLP is more than satisfactory.



These are certainly not the only two speaker brands/models that will work, but only an indication that the "celling speakers MUST match" is an inaccurate position in real world applications. And, FWIW and IMHO, the RSL's are a steal at $250 per pair, shipped. And, the efficiency of both the Tannoy's (89) and the RSL's (88) were less than that of my Triad base level speakers (92).

I don't remember anyone saying they MUST match. But it is always a good choice to match speakers when possible.

I think with "proper placement, some rational decisions on what ceiling speaker to purchase (dispersion pattern and efficiency are important considerations) AND a reasonable room correction system" you can get good sound out of almost any speaker combination.

Not really sure what point the FR graph is doing but I'm glad you are getting nice results with new speakers. My room has three different sets of speakers. Mains, surrounds and overheads yet with enough calibration I can achieve a mostly cohesive surround "bubble".

So you had Tannoy overheads .... what is the rest of your system? Also Tannoy DI6 DC's?
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post #46079 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 10:50 AM
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I don't remember anyone saying they MUST match. But it is always a good choice to match speakers when possible.
I read that somewhere which prompted my post.

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Not really sure what point the FR graph is doing
Now that I think about it, neither do I.

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So you had Tannoy overheads .... what is the rest of your system? Also Tannoy DI6 DC's?
LCR's: Triad Platinum LCR's; Surrounds: Triad Silver In-Room Monitors; SUBS: 8 Seaton F18 subs (2 Masters and 6 Slaves driven by 4000 watt amp in each Master -- 2 in each of the front two corners) and (4) F18's located along the rear wall; 3D Audio ceiling speakers: (4) RSL C34E's
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post #46080 of 46465 Old 08-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Height of the lower center is 30" (just below the screen) angled up to ear level. I've adjusted the upper center speaker level to give a phantom image from the center of the screen, which is 2 1/2 feet above the lower center and 2 1/2 feet below the upper center. Since the surround speakers are all at ear level, a front to side to rear pan starts from the center of the screen and drops to ear level as the object moves.
I totally respect your decision to add an upper center speaker, especially if it works for you, as you are keenly attuned to the elevation aspects. Just offering my observations, if I may:

Screen center (vertically) is not a strict requirement for cinema movie presentation. Can be ~1/3 to 1/2 from the bottom.

Human hearing is much more acute laterally than vertically. Evolution and all that rot. A moderate vertical misalignment (say, less than 10 deg) between C and L/R passes without notice.

Thanks to "ventriloquist effect," the power of eyes dominating ears in determining locations of on-screen sources, our brains conspire to convince us that the apparent position of the actors' faces is the source of their voices, when it often is not. And even though we are more sensitive along the horizontal axis, it turns out to be distracting if the dialog is jumping back and forth "accurately", so positional dialog is used with care.

30" above the floor is higher than I have my center speaker, at 26", with the L/R at ear level (40"), about a 7 deg difference. When the lights are out, no one realizes the speaker is below the screen. Not saying it would not be ideal to have the C speaker behind the screen. I left room for that in my build, but decided in the end to use a non-AT screen in favor of picture quality.

Carry on!
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