The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1537 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #46081 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 01:18 PM
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Could someone please explain how to get the over head speakers correctly configured? I understand the 30/45/55 degree angle from MLP, but what confuses me is the distance between each? And how or what angle to the L/R speakers. I would imagine the wider apart the overheads are to each other the wider the bubble. I look at the dolby guidelines and still can not figure it out.
I been reading and looking at these.





Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just started to set my room up and looking into this before I order speakers and equipment.
thanks
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post #46082 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 01:34 PM
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One thing that has always bothered me is how many films stick dialog in the center and call it quits. On a small TV at home that might make sense as left/right speakers are probably to the left and right of the TV, but on larger screens a voice could be several feet to the left or right of center and given lateral sensitivity this sounds strange.

Fortunately, not all films and studios do that. Disney comes to mind for proper vocal placement relative to screen placement. But if you haven't watched one in awhile it can almost be a bit of a shock to notice dialog tracking position correctly. With all the extra space on Blu-Rays, I'd rather see some "small screen" and "large screen" mixes to select in a home theatre versus a living room or bedroom system than eight foreign languages I'll never use.
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post #46083 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 01:42 PM
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I can read all of the above wrt the center channel(s) and decorrleation and beyond and I will also have to say . WHEW!.

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting science stuff . .

my "experimenting" this spring while convincing myself that I needed to upgrade my surrounds from the DIYSG F4's to a pair of "88 Specials",
the left at about 7+ ft and the right at 6+ wrt MLP,
was (finally - a verb!)
to play "Marble Halls, the Enya version (stereo) , for one, without a center channel and , iirc, using DSU and a few other modes . . .

Then I read this today:

" At the risk of gross oversimplification, with DSU the vocalist and background singers stay up front, and what is left for the surrounds is the pure uncorrelated stuff. That tends to be a directionless, amorphous cloud of sound with a tilt toward the higher frequencies (where things are naturally less correlated). If you listen to the surrounds alone, it's not mono, but it's not stereo in the usual sense either"

EXACTLY , my what I was hearing

In DSU, iirc, The bed layer all sounded identical, like a mono signal, "a directionless, amorphous cloud " all around and quietly so. boosting the MV really didn't change anything

Kick in the CC and it all came back. the spaciousness exploded and the voice dominating / projecting out into the room . .

Thanks for a great discussion . .keep it coming

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post #46084 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 01:56 PM
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Spacing of tops,

maybe helpful to @BCRSS

short version: 3 years ago Sanjay visited me to hear the Submaximus sub. The he asked me if I'd heard the good news.

ATMOS.

We spent an hour, him directing, and me up and down a step ladder.

Using the 45 degrees , it happened that my 4 tops formed a 7 foot square with the MLP in the center. and mostly inline with the fronts and rear surrounds

that's 45 degrees front , back and left and right . .

as my room is about 14.5 wide there, there a notion of a good degree of "symmetry" wrt separation form each other and the bed layer.

so maybe that helps with the planning

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post #46085 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I totally respect your decision to add an upper center speaker, especially if it works for you, as you are keenly attuned to the elevation aspects. Just offering my observations, if I may:



Screen center (vertically) is not a strict requirement for cinema movie presentation. Can be ~1/3 to 1/2 from the bottom.



Human hearing is much more acute laterally than vertically. Evolution and all that rot. A moderate vertical misalignment (say, less than 10 deg) between C and L/R passes without notice.



Thanks to "ventriloquist effect," the power of eyes dominating ears in determining locations of on-screen sources, our brains conspire to convince us that the apparent position of the actors' faces is the source of their voices, when it often is not. And even though we are more sensitive along the horizontal axis, it turns out to be distracting if the dialog is jumping back and forth "accurately", so positional dialog is used with care.



30" above the floor is higher than I have my center speaker, at 26", with the L/R at ear level (40"), about a 7 deg difference. When the lights are out, no one realizes the speaker is below the screen. Not saying it would not be ideal to have the C speaker behind the screen. I left room for that in my build, but decided in the end to use a non-AT screen in favor of picture quality.



Carry on!


After considerable experimentation, some of it with very capable dedicated center speakers, I've had great success in my theater room with tower speakers in phantom mode. I recognize that comb filtering can be an issue and proper setup is essential, but I now use my best, most capable speakers for front and center duties, and they now sound superior to any dedicated center I've owned. I'm currently using Golden Ear Triton 5's, which image very well, but I've also used this method with other speakers and dialogue comes right where it's supposed to and the Triton's superior imaging make the voices exceptionally realistic. I personally will never go back to a horizontally oriented center speaker.


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post #46086 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
After considerable experimentation, some of it with very capable dedicated center speakers, I've had great success in my theater room with tower speakers in phantom mode.

I personally will never go back to a horizontally oriented center speaker.
A perfectly valid choice for centrally situated listener(s). Do you keep a center speaker on hand when you have people seated off-axis? Or is thus a solo operation?

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post #46087 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
A perfectly valid choice for centrally situated listener(s). Do you keep a center speaker on hand when you have people seated off-axis? Or is thus a solo operation?


I have a row of 3 seats, and I've sat on the ends with no discernible deficit. To make this work, each front speaker needs to be the same distance from the mlp, and appropriately toed in. I actually discovered this by accident, I was listening to some 2 channel material which I had assumed was multichannel, and was struck by how much BETTER it sounded than my dedicated center setup, particularly with voices. The tweeters on my fronts are close to seated ear level, so I think this also helps to place dialogue appropriately.


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post #46088 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
Spacing of tops,

maybe helpful to @BCRSS

short version: 3 years ago Sanjay visited me to hear the Submaximus sub. The he asked me if I'd heard the good news.

ATMOS.

We spent an hour, him directing, and me up and down a step ladder.

Using the 45 degrees , it happened that my 4 tops formed a 7 foot square with the MLP in the center. and mostly inline with the fronts and rear surrounds

that's 45 degrees front , back and left and right . .

as my room is about 14.5 wide there, there a notion of a good degree of "symmetry" wrt separation form each other and the bed layer.

so maybe that helps with the planning

So I am assuming you picked a few points on ceiling that were 45 degrees from MLP and created a circle around those points on the ceiling?

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post #46089 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 02:51 PM
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Question: I sit about 10.5 feet from my LCR's and my surrounds are at about 90 degrees. Couch is about a foot off back wall, no option to move it forward. If I go Atmos, am I limited to just 2 overheads, or can I do 4? If I can do 4, where do I put them?
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post #46090 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post
Could someone please explain how to get the over head speakers correctly configured? I understand the 30/45/55 degree angle from MLP, but what confuses me is the distance between each?
The "??? distance" on your 2nd picture is simple Pythagoras. You have the angle, the distance which comes out of the Pythagoras calculation depends on the height of the ceiling above your head, which is specific to your room.

Ie, this result will then be used for the distance forward between point 1, MLP, and the mid-point between the two speakers (6). Call this "x". the distance between the mid-point of the no. 6's and the mid-point of the no. 7's on your second picture, will be "2x".

Then, for Atmos, you take that distance in front of you on the ceiling, and then trace a line left/right of it until you're in line with the front left/rights and put your top speakers there. So to the question how far apart the two no. 6 (top front) speakers are - that's easy, it's "the same distance apart as your no. 2 front speakers".

There was a "Atmos_Speaker_Placement" spreadsheet that's linked from one of the posts here. It does all the calculations (to get "x" etc) for you. Hopefully someone else will remember where it is. It's excellent.

EDIT: The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
aaranddeeman's Atmos Speaker Placement Calculator and Validator spreadsheet.

The distance in front/behind the MLP is calculated slightly differently between Atmos and DTS:X but in many rooms they are pretty close to each other so as to make no difference.
Atmos only uses the elevation angle, shown on your second diagram as ranges of possible angles you can use. DTS:X uses not only an elevation angle but it specifies an azimuth angle of 45deg. This is why it is different to the Atmos "forward distance x, then across in line with your fronts" way of doing it.

HTH
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post #46091 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 03:30 PM
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I want to ask a question, which I think regular posters to this thread are more likely to be able to answer because some of you are audio professionals and many are gifted hobbyists.

Over the past couple of days, I have been watching an old BBC series, MI-5, on Hulu. The native audio codec is PCM 2.0. When I use my Yamaha 3060's Enhanced DSP, the 2.0 audio upconverts to 7.2..4, as expected, so there are surround and immersive effects, albeit fairly minor. Here's the rub, though. When I use the Dolby Surround Upmixer builtin to the 3060, the native 2.0 audio matrixes to only 7.2. The overheads remain silent. This puzzles me because a lot of programming I have heard was upconverted to 7.2.4 just fine with the Digital Surround DSP. Can anyone suggest why the Digital Surround DSP isn't giving me 7.2.4 with MI-5's PCM 2.0 audio? Thanks in advance for any advice.
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post #46092 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 03:45 PM
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@BCRSS

So I am assuming you picked a few points on ceiling that were 45 degrees from MLP and created a circle around those points on the ceiling?

We picked points 45 degrees ahead, behind and also to the left and right , following interpretation of the guidelines,

circles were never mentioned

I suppose the assumption of being equi-distant from the mlp seemed self explanatory and good science. . .

and yes I assume its possible to draw a circle that would include the placement of the tops as a 7 ft sq. with the vertices of that square on the circumference of the circle.

breaking ti down . .
half that square would be a 7 x 7 right triangle. a^2 + b^2 = c^2 - 49 +49 = 98, call C = 9.9 ft.

9.9 / 2 =4.95, which would be the radius, if one were to need to draw a circle wherein the circumference intersected the points that are the corners of the square .

now for SCATMOS, if one were going for all tops equi-distant from 1 central point, a circle makes perfect sense.
I didn't do that but now I lowered my surrounds and mover them forward to about 75-80 degrees, I
I can revisit that geometry .

the sides of the square would put my TM's at a linear 3.5 feet from the mlp, a opposed to the 4.95 for the TF and TR . working as a plane measurement

maybe I can work with settings in the SCATMOS amps and add some delay, or change the distance, and check with a SPL meter ., etc.
or
break out the tape measure and see how things measure up for keeping good spacing of the TM's relative to the base layer and particularly the surrounds

as my tops are Volt6's, turning a co-axial on its side is not much of a change

I like the "look" of the klipsch SLX as TM's, they tuck up there like it was almost a real plan.

rabbit hole -What rabbit hole?

HTH
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post #46093 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 03:51 PM
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my "images" files was playing hide and seek after I re-did this laptop . .

so , once again -

SCATMOS
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post #46094 of 46496 Old 08-19-2017, 03:52 PM
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Thank you for the explanations. @asarose247 & @mrtickleuk I think I am ready to layout a rough idea of my placements now.


Hopefully by the end of this year I will have a fine setup.


Thanks again
Curt
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post #46095 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post
Question: I sit about 10.5 feet from my LCR's and my surrounds are at about 90 degrees. Couch is about a foot off back wall, no option to move it forward. If I go Atmos, am I limited to just 2 overheads, or can I do 4? If I can do 4, where do I put them?


You're realistically limited to 2, and I'd recommend placing them directly overhead. You'd still get a good effect, just no panning in the coronal plane. You're also going to have bass issues sitting that far back, but that's another conversation.


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post #46096 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
You're realistically limited to 2, and I'd recommend placing them directly overhead. You'd still get a good effect, just no panning in the coronal plane. You're also going to have bass issues sitting that far back, but that's another conversation.
Agreed but some judicial use of EQ should ameliorate it to a great extent.
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post #46097 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
You're realistically limited to 2, and I'd recommend placing them directly overhead. You'd still get a good effect, just no panning in the coronal plane. You're also going to have bass issues sitting that far back, but that's another conversation.


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So if that's the case, am I better off with 4 atmos enabled speakers or 2 overheads?
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post #46098 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
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One thing that has always bothered me is how many films stick dialog in the center and call it quits. On a small TV at home that might make sense as left/right speakers are probably to the left and right of the TV, but on larger screens a voice could be several feet to the left or right of center and given lateral sensitivity this sounds strange.

Fortunately, not all films and studios do that. Disney comes to mind for proper vocal placement relative to screen placement. But if you haven't watched one in awhile it can almost be a bit of a shock to notice dialog tracking position correctly. With all the extra space on Blu-Rays, I'd rather see some "small screen" and "large screen" mixes to select in a home theatre versus a living room or bedroom system than eight foreign languages I'll never use.
Studios don't mix films.. mixers do. The real, only practice effect the studios directly have on how a film sounds has to do with the amount of money they have budgeted to post sound... they also have a strong voice in who the mixers will be, but that usually has more to do with the relationship the mixer has with the director and/or producers.

There are many reasons why you can't/don't pan dialog...... the main practical one being that on films that aren't animated, the production sound usually contains a lot of extraneous noise/ambience that doesn't lend well to panning.

And even when you can, you don't always want to... film is a flat 2 dimension image with spatial and temporal disruptions (picture cuts and camera placement changes)... so while in real life, voices follow people, it can be extremely disconcerning when an actor moves from one side of the screen to the extreme other on a cut.. completely un-natrual, and panning dialog sometimes calls attention to that... we're supposed to help tell the story and not call attention to the sound..

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

That reason alone should explain why it's prevalent on "Disney" films (I think you can use that term to talk about animated films in general...) All of the dialog is recorded in a controlled studio environment. You have complete control over the sound of the voices. I honestly found a lot of the early Disney/Pixar pan fests distracting, and also very disjointing depending on where you sat in the theater...

You can't solve for everyones setup via a different mix... some TV's have speakers on the LR of the screen, some tv's don't.. some home theaters do, some don't

It would be impractical (and foolish) to try and chase that down.. are you then supposed to re-pan all of the effects and music? You must mix it for the intended aspect ratio....

Just my .02.
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post #46099 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
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So if that's the case, am I better off with 4 atmos enabled speakers or 2 overheads?


My initial reaction would be the 2 overheads. Some have reported good results with AE speakers, but the ceiling material, distance and other variables make it very unpredictable from setup to setup. It's easier to get good results with overheads and the consensus is that the audio experience is superior.


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post #46100 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 02:49 PM
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@filmmixer

I read an article on panning dialog at some point which is when I started noticing when it was used. It seems like 70mm films had something to do with it. A search shows that's when they first experimenting with it and I gather it's commonly used in Imax documentaries due to the extreme screen size. Perhaps Disney was mentioned or I noticed it there since I believe Tron used it (it was 70mm) and certainly Pixar (e.g. Cars). Gravity makes extensive use of it as well.

The question of what is realistic versus "distracting" seems to come up with surround sound a lot. Using mostly mono type surround effects when 5.1 first came out was often attributed to not wanting to distract viewers from the screen (some argued Pro Logic was all that was needed) while others realized that's not distraction, but immersion. People go to great lengths to create ceiling 'distractions' these days, for example. Whether someone likes the effect or not is subjective. I know someone that prefers mono for everything and wishes explosions weren't so darn loud, but others live for it. To each their own.

Personally, I think some people are just so used to dialog in the center only they forget how totally unrealistic it is (while apparently wanting more "realism" with ceiling speakers and the like and yet locked tight dialog is somehow OK?) You've got people putting center speakers both above and below their screens to get phantom image dialog centered on the screen and yet they don't mind the guy on the left talking to the guy on the right with both their voices coming from the middle where neither is at? Yeah, I have to disagree with that practice.

And no you (obviously) wouldn't remix everything for panned dialog. Just dialog. (sigh)
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post #46101 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 03:55 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
@filmmixer

I read an article on panning dialog at some point which is when I started noticing when it was used. It seems like 70mm films had something to do with it. A search shows that's when they first experimenting with it and I gather it's commonly used in Imax documentaries due to the extreme screen size. Perhaps Disney was mentioned or I noticed it there since I believe Tron used it (it was 70mm) and certainly Pixar (e.g. Cars). Gravity makes extensive use of it as well.

The question of what is realistic versus "distracting" seems to come up with surround sound a lot. Using mostly mono type surround effects when 5.1 first came out was often attributed to not wanting to distract viewers from the screen (some argued Pro Logic was all that was needed) while others realized that's not distraction, but immersion. People go to great lengths to create ceiling 'distractions' these days, for example. Whether someone likes the effect or not is subjective. I know someone that prefers mono for everything and wishes explosions weren't so darn loud, but others live for it. To each their own.

Personally, I think some people are just so used to dialog in the center only they forget how totally unrealistic it is (while apparently wanting more "realism" with ceiling speakers and the like and yet locked tight dialog is somehow OK?) You've got people putting center speakers both above and below their screens to get phantom image dialog centered on the screen and yet they don't mind the guy on the left talking to the guy on the right with both their voices coming from the middle where neither is at? Yeah, I have to disagree with that practice.

And no you (obviously) wouldn't remix everything for panned dialog. Just dialog. (sigh)

What if the guy and the left and right talk at the same time? Then you can't separate them.

Did I say to never do it? No I did not... go listen to Power Rangers...

Yes... it works great in Gravity... a film that was designed with many locked down (and physically impossible to do in real life) camera shots.

You seem to be the only one actively complaining... you shouldn't ascribe your gripe with everyone else on these boards (for example those with upper and lower C speakers.)

You're entitled to your opinion. So you can disagree (or 'sigh') all you want.

But I make a living for giving mine .

Not every mixer agrees... but you seem fairy incapable of reading what I said and understanding that they are valid point and limitations.... discretion is always a factor... as is every other of the thousands and thousands of decisions that go into a mix.

Regarding your last point... what about foley, or sound effects that accompany the dialog? So no, it's not "obviously..."

Sorry... to say you only need to redo the dialog is a grossly uniformed statement IMO.
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post #46102 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 05:06 PM
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Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just started to set my room up and looking into this before I order speakers and equipment.
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Review the Atmos Home Theater guide (PDF) as it explains everything. Your Tops should be in-line with your L & R..that will set their wide distance. Then they should be at 45 angle from MLP. Measure your ear height to the ceiling and put them at that distance (front & back) from the MLP. If impractical, do your best to stay close.
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post #46103 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Personally, I think some people are just so used to dialog in the center only they forget how totally unrealistic it is (while apparently wanting more "realism" with ceiling speakers and the like and yet locked tight dialog is somehow OK?) You've got people putting center speakers both above and below their screens to get phantom image dialog centered on the screen and yet they don't mind the guy on the left talking to the guy on the right with both their voices coming from the middle where neither is at? Yeah, I have to disagree with that practice.
I actually agree with you here. It seems that dialog is "locked" to the center, no matter where the person speaking is placed in the scene. And i find that unrealistic too.
Another example: two people talking, one on the screen, the other out of screen, in the back of the room(behind where you sit and watch the movie). But still both voices come from the center.

I find it spectacular when what happens on screen is followed by what you hear. Like the opening scene in Power Rangers, when he drives and crashes the car, the camera changes all around, and the sounds mirror that change. Very cool, and as it should be, in my opinion.

The very famous scene in a episode of Daredevil, where the camera pans 360 degrees in a car, while a man in the backseat sings, is also a "textbook" example of how what you see and hear is in sync.

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post #46104 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 07:05 PM
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Studios don't mix films.. mixers do. ... we're supposed to help tell the story and not call attention to the sound..
As it happens my wife and I just this minute finished watching (for the very first time) Matt Dillon's City of Ghosts (2002). It's hard for me to believe that this was Dillon's sole feature film as writer/director. Everything about it--story, dialogue, acting, direction, character development, camera work, locations, and editing--was just stunning. As you say, the soundtrack put us right in the exotic settings where the action takes place without calling attention to itself.

And, lo and behold, whose name did we spot in the end credits but our very own @FilmMixer! Well done, sir!
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post #46105 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
What if the guy and the left and right talk at the same time? Then you can't separate them.
You're making up hypothetical scenarios without a lot of variables provided. How were these people miked on separate sides of the viewing screen and yet have no separation in their vocals? Are you implying they didn't record in stereo, which provides separation automatically and can be widened artificially? Why didn't they? If a movie is filmed with panned vocals in mind, you wouldn't use a mono mike to film dialog with two people talking at the same time on opposite sides of the screen. What do they do if there's too much noise or other issues? Do they not re-record the dialog in a studio room while watching the film bit to line it up? Or did you think I want all old movies redone as opposed to the idea of using modern speaker systems to their actual capability instead of the 1980s?

What I'm saying is that panned vocals CAN work when they're planned for. A technical issue for one scene or a problem with the way a movie was filmed and audio recorded is a technical would be an issue, yes. But clearly there are ways to do things and when a movie is being made to re-record vocals over top a noisy scene, etc.

Thus, what I'm saying is that my comments on PREFERRING correlation of sounds on screen with their position in the soundtrack are not a commentary on how to do your job or whether you're good at it, etc. I've never watched Power Rangers (what else have you done?) and I have no interest in watching that movie due to the subject matter. My comments are in general about movies I've seen with more (maybe not "all") vocals correlated versus the many many movies I've seen where everything is just thrown into the center whether it matches the screen or not. That strikes me as both lazy and unrealistic. I know there are other reasons given for why it's done (clear vocals for the entire audience in a theater, etc.), but that's less of a problem now with say 5 speakers across the screen than 3. Certainly, Atmos could have added even more if they wanted to make it even more seamless for all seats. But while "Cars" might place a vocal off-screen in my living room TV with speakers off to the sides, it does a great job in my home theater where the speakers are at the left/right screen edges and everything comes pretty close to where it's at on-screen.

Some movies only move the dialog when it's at the extreme edges, but that's better than nothing, IMO. Maybe it's not always possible to put them perfectly where they are due to how it was recorded, etc. and certainly going back and editing old movies might be difficult to do at this point, but then we live in an age where they are often able to go back and take a movie that was only in stereo in the 1970s and make it 5.1 or 7.1 or even Atmos TODAY.

I've been trying to point out how "taste" for mixes has changed over the years. Where the thought of stereo surround speakers was once distasteful for many people (it would be a distraction!), it's now commonplace and many people seem to enjoy it. How many would enjoy panned dialog if it were the norm instead of the exception? How much of that "unnatural" feeling is due to being used to what is common now rather than an actual problem with what is clearly more realistic (i.e. sound coming from where the source is on-screen)? You might hate it. That's OK. I didn't say you had to agree with me. I simply voiced an opinion.

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Did I say to never do it? No I did not... go listen to Power Rangers...
I really don't want to watch Power Rangers (nothing to do with your mix; I simply never got into Power Rangers as a kid and have zero interest in the movie in general and I'm not going to buy it just to hear an example of your mix).

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You seem to be the only one actively complaining
I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with anything? Why is giving my opinion "complaining" anyway? Do 1 million people have to agree with me for someone to bring something up on these forums? How many people have even thought about it? People take it for granted that dialog comes from the center. But when you watch a movie where it comes from the source on the screen, it's an ear opener. I happen to think it's better that way. Clearly, you seem to disagree enough to argue about it. I really didn't post the comment to create an argument.

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... you shouldn't ascribe your gripe with everyone else on these boards (for example those with upper and lower C speakers.)
That has nothing to do with it. I'm pointing out that some people are very picky about sound placement to the nth degree where it really doesn't even matter (height or y-axis isn't as noticeable as left/right x-axis) but apparently don't notice or care (as you seem to think) how dialog sound placement never moves in many films. I simply pointed out that it does move in several films and I think it makes a lot more sense for sounds to come from the source that made them than the middle of the screen (at least when "possible").

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You're entitled to your opinion. So you can disagree (or 'sigh') all you want.
I'm sighing because you implied I wanted a whole new soundtrack made from scratch. We have headphone mixes now and even DTS NEO: X mix in at least one case, but the idea that we could have an option for accurate dialog placement is just impossible? Actually, it would probably be best to mix for accurate dialog placement and then dump everything to center for the old-fashioned mix. It's not hard to put things in the center, after all. If I delete a pan in Logic Pro, it goes back to the center default placement. We can make 5.1 or 7.1 mixes from movies that were originally released in stereo only, but panning a vocal apparently is too much to ask for.

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But I make a living for giving mine .
The fact other mixers have panned dialog tells me that I'm arguing with little more than the opinion of one person. And I don't even know why I'm arguing. I made a comment about preference and you attacked it. Hey, have at it. You've got your fan entourage here to agree with every post you make where I'm loathed for giving a contradictory opinion. And so I'm "all alone" in that opinion on the whole wide planet? That's why movies like Gravity and Cars use panned dialog. Because NO ONE else likes it? (and I mean film mixers, not the audience who is not asked what they would prefer!)

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Not every mixer agrees... but you seem fairy incapable of reading what I said and understanding that they are valid point and limitations.... discretion is always a factor... as is every other of the thousands and thousands of decisions that go into a mix.
Yes, I can't understand anything you say! You must speak more slowly!

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Regarding your last point... what about foley, or sound effects that accompany the dialog? So no, it's not "obviously..."
What about them? Where are they at? Are you telling me they're better off in the "center" than the left or right when the center is WRONG for the dialog where you can clearly see their mouths moving, but this supposed sound effect matters that much? What kind of sound effect? Where is it at? You just interject abstract examples and then complain you can't separate them when that's no worse than having sound that should be from the left side of the screen come out of the center instead! Why is THAT acceptable to you but having some "sound effect" in the wrong place isn't? Maybe you should edit out the sound effect that's causing the problem and insert another one in the mix instead if it's such a big problem (probably easier to do than getting the actors to re-record their dialog).

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Sorry... to say you only need to redo the dialog is a grossly uniformed statement IMO.
You asked if they were supposed to redo everything and I said no. That doesn't address every single possibility, obviously. But it doesn't mean redo every single sound effect used either! Apparently, you weren't asking a question but being sarcastic and nasty because I'm questioning sound mixes and that's your livelihood so therefore everyone else that isn't also a film sound mixer for a living is apparently incapable of talking about the subject or giving opinions.

Hey, don't worry. Everyone will agree with you anyway. I'm hated (and I don't care since I'm not in high school).
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post #46106 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I actually agree with you here. It seems that dialog is "locked" to the center, no matter where the person speaking is placed in the scene. And i find that unrealistic too.

Another example: two people talking, one on the screen, the other out of screen, in the back of the room(behind where you sit and watch the movie). But still both voices come from the center.



I find it spectacular when what happens on screen is followed by what you hear. Like the opening scene in Power Rangers, when he drives and crashes the car, the camera changes all around, and the sounds mirror that change. Very cool, and as it should be, in my opinion.



The very famous scene in a episode of Daredevil, where the camera pans 360 degrees in a car, while a man in the backseat sings, is also a "textbook" example of how what you see and hear is in sync.

My entire original point was :

1. Sometimes for technical reasons you aren't able to do that.

2. Sometimes you don't want to when you can because it doesn't serve the story, either visually or dramatically.
@MagnumX suggested we should offer 2 mixes for home heater. Which makes no sense.... you can't account for every setup. We all know where speakers are supposed to exist in relation to a the image in all of the various aspect ratios in which films are presented.

To creat a mix for one person who has speakers outside the LR and those who doesn't would be foolish.

And as he has again shown in his lengthy reply to me, he doesn't understand why it isn't simple... but I don't need to keep beating that red horse.

Both of those examples you listed of my work were prime example of the movement helping to tell the story and of me also being able to technically be able to do it (in daredevil the production sound was clean...).

Again... sometimes you can't separate two characters entirely so that dictates your choices. Sometimes you want characters to be in the same space dramatically, which is why both or more voices in the center makes sense (and the opposite holds true when you want to creat a divide between them ...)

Let me say something that I hope isn't taken as egotistical.... but I was hired for Daredevil exactly because I bring this kind of thought process and sensibility to my work.

So I'm not trying to dismiss what you or others may like. But I think it's a mistake to be critical of the practice without knowing all of the reasons what it is or isn't more ubiquitous.




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post #46107 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 07:37 PM
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As it happens my wife and I just this minute finished watching (for the very first time) Matt Dillon's City of Ghosts (2002). It's hard for me to believe that this was Dillon's sole feature film as writer/director. Everything about it--story, dialogue, acting, direction, character development, camera work, locations, and editing--was just stunning. As you say, the soundtrack put us right in the exotic settings where the action takes place without calling attention to itself.

And, lo and behold, whose name did we spot in the end credits but our very own @FilmMixer! Well done, sir!


Thanks Jeff.

That's certainly an interesting film with a really great score.

As a side note... Matt Dillon talked a lot about just being a huge study and sponge when was working as an actor on all those really great films he acted in.

He certainly had some good teachers
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post #46108 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
My entire original point was :

1. Sometimes for technical reasons you aren't able to do that.

2. Sometimes you don't want to when you can because it doesn't serve the story, either visually or dramatically.
@MagnumX suggested we should offer 2 mixes for home heater. Which makes no sense.... you can't account for every setup. We all know where speakers are supposed to exist in relation to a the image in all of the various aspect ratios in which films are presented.

To creat a mix for one person who has speakers outside the LR and those who doesn't would be foolish.

And as he has again shown in his lengthy reply to me, he doesn't understand why it isn't simple... but I don't need to keep beating that red horse.

Both of those examples you listed of my work were prime example of the movement helping to tell the story and of me also being able to technically be able to do it (in daredevil the production sound was clean...).

Again... sometimes you can't separate two characters entirely so that dictates your choices. Sometimes you want characters to be in the same space dramatically, which is why both or more voices in the center makes sense (and the opposite holds true when you want to creat a divide between them ...)

Let me say something that I hope isn't taken as egotistical.... but I was hired for Daredevil exactly because I bring this kind of thought process and sensibility to my work.

So I'm not trying to dismiss what you or others may like. But I think it's a mistake to be critical of the practice without knowing all of the reasons what it is or isn't more ubiquitous.




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Sure, i get it. And i think we agree about how it "should" sound. And then corporate gets in the way

I guess with all people just listen to TV speakers, they don't know any better, and finds it distracting when something sounds from any other place.

I prefer when it sounds "logical" in that sounds come from where they belong. And what i find distracting is when all voices is put in the same place in the center.

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post #46109 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 08:43 PM
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Sure, i get it. And i think we agree about how it "should" sound. And then corporate gets in the way

No..... we don't all don't agree.....

I certainly don't share your opinion.

What does "corporate" getting in the way have to do with this discussion? I don't understand that comment.
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post #46110 of 46496 Old 08-20-2017, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
My entire original point was :

1. Sometimes for technical reasons you aren't able to do that.
That would be understandable.

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2. Sometimes you don't want to when you can because it doesn't serve the story, either visually or dramatically.
That's where it's subjective and where things have clearly been changing over time, especially in regards to surround sound usage. It's only a matter of time before someone figures out that precision placement of dialog on screen makes more sense than putting everything in the center. You've got a theater with over 100 speakers in it and yet dialog is dead center all the time? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.... Treat the bird calls better than the actors voices.

However, given almost all films put the dialog dead center with no thought to anything else, I think it's safe to say most mixing people agree with you. I think that will change. Imagine VR where the voices come from a plant in the center instead of the people on the left. THAT is my point. And besides technical reasons where separation or whatever is an issue, there is no excuse for it other than "that's the way it's always been done" or "it's less distracting" and yet some movies choose to do more and I find them preferable for it.

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@MagnumX suggested we should offer 2 mixes for home heater. Which makes no sense.... you can't account for every setup.
Please. There are only TWO possible mixes needed to handle dialog for every single home theater out there!

Panned vocals require standardized fixed setup locations (edges and center of screen) to reasonably well place voices where they're supposed to be (nothing is perfect, obviously).

Anchored vocals can accommodate everything else imaginable out there (since they put ALL the vocals in the dead center where one would assume the screen would be unless someone likes having the TV on the far left).

I count exactly TWO mixes required there not one for "every setup" imaginable.

The ironic thing is that most films already use anchored vocals even though they were mixed for theaters, not homes. Thus, it's actually the cinema mixes I have an issue with, not what I would call the "home" mix in my suggested alternate choice setup. Yet even so, I don't recall tons of complaints about Cars or Gravity at home (you said I'm the only one complaining, but who complained when the opposite was done?). There may be lots of hybrid mixes as well (I haven't made a list).

In fact, in truth, "most" people don't care or notice such things as they play the sound out of their TV set speakers....

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So I'm not trying to dismiss what you or others may like.
Of course you are. That's the entire point of arguing to death over a simple opinion about existing soundtracks. You think things are fine the way they are and people smarter than me or my neighbor should make those decisions and we should probably just STFU and not imply things could be done more accurately than having voices come out of the dead center regardless of what's happening on screen.

Really, I'm not having any fun here. I have better things to do than argue about an OPINION I gave (and at least one other agreed with). I'd prefer more accuracy for dialog placement. You're defending the status quo and I really don't need your reasoning to defend it because I don't agree with your opinion that it's fine as it is.

If one mixed for panned dialog, making an anchored dialog version would be relatively simple by comparison (move everything dialog related to the center; Logic Pro did this for me by default if I removed my panning on my rock album (yes it's two-channel, but panning is panning and I did mix for placement using PLIIx processing as an option and that was more difficult than panning to actual discrete channels to get the results I wanted). CENTER is the default location for panning or the lack thereof in Logic Pro. Maybe there would be a few trouble spots along the way for making a panned dialog track, but that's not something I would call unsolved mystery worthy.

Clearly, several films have managed already. Whether it's worth doing, hey, that's a different question altogether than CAN it be done because for the most part, YES IT CAN. And there is no technical reason a panned dialog soundtrack couldn't be mixed to be an anchored dialog version. Include both and the home user can pick their poison (make anchored the default for most compatibility and people that don't know any better). Is it worth the bother? Probably not to the bean counters. But then asking for an HD version of Star Wars as it originally appeared in theaters is too much to ask as well (fortunately, someone else managed to do it on their own).
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