Originally Posted by FilmMixer
What if the guy and the left and right talk at the same time? Then you can't separate them.
You're making up hypothetical scenarios without a lot of variables provided. How were these people miked on separate sides of the viewing screen and yet have no separation in their vocals? Are you implying they didn't record in stereo, which provides separation automatically and can be widened artificially? Why didn't they? If a movie is filmed with panned vocals in mind, you wouldn't use a mono mike to film dialog with two people talking at the same time on opposite sides of the screen. What do they do if there's too much noise or other issues? Do they not re-record the dialog in a studio room while watching the film bit to line it up? Or did you think I want all old movies redone as opposed to the idea of using modern speaker systems to their actual capability instead of the 1980s?
What I'm saying is that panned vocals CAN work when they're planned for. A technical issue for one scene or a problem with the way a movie was filmed and audio recorded is a technical would be an issue, yes. But clearly there are ways to do things and when a movie is being made to re-record vocals over top a noisy scene, etc.
Thus, what I'm saying is that my comments on PREFERRING correlation of sounds on screen with their position in the soundtrack are not a commentary on how to do your job or whether you're good at it, etc. I've never watched Power Rangers (what else have you done?) and I have no interest in watching that movie due to the subject matter. My comments are in general about movies I've seen with more (maybe not "all") vocals correlated versus the many many movies I've seen where everything is just thrown into the center whether it matches the screen or not. That strikes me as both lazy and unrealistic. I know there are other reasons given for why it's done (clear vocals for the entire audience in a theater, etc.), but that's less of a problem now with say 5 speakers across the screen than 3. Certainly, Atmos could have added even more if they wanted to make it even more seamless for all seats. But while "Cars" might place a vocal off-screen in my living room TV with speakers off to the sides, it does a great job in my home theater where the speakers are at the left/right screen edges and everything comes pretty close to where it's at on-screen.
Some movies only move the dialog when it's at the extreme edges, but that's better than nothing, IMO. Maybe it's not always possible to put them perfectly where they are due to how it was recorded, etc. and certainly going back and editing old movies might be difficult to do at this point, but then we live in an age where they are often able to go back and take a movie that was only in stereo in the 1970s and make it 5.1 or 7.1 or even Atmos TODAY.
I've been trying to point out how "taste" for mixes has changed over the years. Where the thought of stereo surround speakers was once distasteful for many people (it would be a distraction!), it's now commonplace and many people seem to enjoy it. How many would enjoy panned dialog if it were the norm instead of the exception? How much of that "unnatural" feeling is due to being used to what is common now rather than an actual problem with what is clearly more realistic (i.e. sound coming from where the source is on-screen)? You might hate it. That's OK. I didn't say you had to agree with me. I simply voiced an opinion.
Did I say to never do it? No I did not... go listen to Power Rangers...
I really don't want to watch Power Rangers (nothing to do with your mix; I simply never got into Power Rangers as a kid and have zero interest in the movie in general and I'm not going to buy it just to hear an example of your mix).
You seem to be the only one actively complaining
I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with anything? Why is giving my opinion "complaining" anyway? Do 1 million people have to agree with me for someone to bring something up on these forums? How many people have even thought about it? People take it for granted that dialog comes from the center. But when you watch a movie where it comes from the source on the screen, it's an ear opener. I happen to think it's better that way. Clearly, you seem to disagree enough to argue about it. I really didn't post the comment to create an argument.
... you shouldn't ascribe your gripe with everyone else on these boards (for example those with upper and lower C speakers.)
That has nothing to do with it. I'm pointing out that some people are very picky about sound placement to the nth degree where it really doesn't even matter (height or y-axis isn't as noticeable as left/right x-axis) but apparently don't notice or care
(as you seem to think) how dialog sound placement never moves in many films. I simply pointed out that it does move in several films and I think it makes a lot more sense for sounds to come from the source that made them than the middle of the screen (at least when "possible").
You're entitled to your opinion. So you can disagree (or 'sigh') all you want.
I'm sighing because you implied I wanted a whole new soundtrack made from scratch. We have headphone mixes now and even DTS NEO: X mix in at least one case, but the idea that we could have an option for accurate dialog placement is just impossible? Actually, it would probably be best to mix for accurate dialog placement and then dump everything to center for the old-fashioned mix. It's not hard to put things in the center, after all. If I delete a pan in Logic Pro, it goes back to the center default placement. We can make 5.1 or 7.1 mixes from movies that were originally released in stereo only, but panning a vocal apparently is too much to ask for.
But I make a living for giving mine
The fact other mixers have panned dialog tells me that I'm arguing with little more than the opinion of one person. And I don't even know why I'm arguing. I made a comment about preference and you attacked it. Hey, have at it. You've got your fan entourage here to agree with every post you make where I'm loathed for giving a contradictory opinion. And so I'm "all alone" in that opinion on the whole wide planet? That's why movies like Gravity and Cars use panned dialog. Because NO ONE else likes it? (and I mean film mixers, not the audience who is not asked what they would prefer!)
Not every mixer agrees... but you seem fairy incapable of reading what I said and understanding that they are valid point and limitations.... discretion is always a factor... as is every other of the thousands and thousands of decisions that go into a mix.
Yes, I can't understand anything you say! You must speak more slowly!
Regarding your last point... what about foley, or sound effects that accompany the dialog? So no, it's not "obviously..."
What about them? Where are they at? Are you telling me they're better off in the "center" than the left or right when the center is WRONG for the dialog where you can clearly see their mouths moving, but this supposed sound effect matters that much? What kind of sound effect? Where is it at? You just interject abstract examples and then complain you can't separate them when that's no worse than having sound that should be from the left side of the screen come out of the center instead! Why is THAT acceptable to you but having some "sound effect" in the wrong place isn't? Maybe you should edit out the sound effect that's causing the problem and insert another one in the mix instead if it's such a big problem (probably easier to do than getting the actors to re-record their dialog).
Sorry... to say you only need to redo the dialog is a grossly uniformed statement IMO.
You asked if they were supposed to redo everything and I said no. That doesn't address every single possibility, obviously. But it doesn't mean redo every single sound effect used either! Apparently, you weren't asking a question but being sarcastic and nasty because I'm questioning sound mixes and that's your livelihood so therefore everyone else that isn't also a film sound mixer for a living is apparently incapable of talking about the subject or giving opinions.
Hey, don't worry. Everyone will agree with you anyway. I'm hated (and I don't care since I'm not in high school).