The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 16 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Receivers, Amps, and Processors

chi_guy50's Avatar chi_guy50
07:57 PM Liked: 230
post #451 of 20118
07-03-2014 | Posts: 1,230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post

Received my .4 speakers today. Going to wait for more details before installing them.
Nice choice. I'm using the 80F/X-RT's (from the same series) as surrounds and they are fabulous.
Orbitron's Avatar Orbitron
10:50 PM Liked: 183
post #452 of 20118
07-03-2014 | Posts: 655
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New Blu-ray titles will have the Dolby Atmos. Can the studios also remaster older titles to include Atmos?
DaJoJo's Avatar DaJoJo
11:04 PM Liked: 769
post #453 of 20118
07-03-2014 | Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Some of the literature for the newer Atmos "friendly" professional speakers talk about "wide dispersal" patterns. Models like the Klipsch surrounds use a kind of dual driver/bipolar configured tweeter assembly with a single woofer.
only the rs-42(II) use 1 woofer, the 52 and 62 use 2 woofers. wide dispersion patterns doesn't neccesarily mean wide radiating. besides that, the placement is in the corners and from bi-polar speakers you get sounds bouncing to the side-walls which to me doesn't benefit the soundfield for atmos and the positional soundfield they need to create.
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
11:07 PM Liked: 668
post #454 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
New Blu-ray titles will have the Dolby Atmos. Can the studios also remaster older titles to include Atmos?
If the original audio stems and individual sound elements are still available, sure they can. It's just like a fancier remix. Dolby experimented with the original (and best) "Die Hard" using Atmos.
DaJoJo's Avatar DaJoJo
11:12 PM Liked: 769
post #455 of 20118
07-03-2014 | Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
New Blu-ray titles will have the Dolby Atmos. Can the studios also remaster older titles to include Atmos?
they can but probably won't as it involves a redo of the audio tracks. i think movies that have been in a atmos theater and have a object based master allready will be re-issued in blu-ray format atmos though, ther is a soon to come huge market for them. you can also use the avr's surroundprocessors to create a atmos alike soundfield for older movies.
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
11:33 PM Liked: 668
post #456 of 20118
07-03-2014 | Posts: 9,726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
only the rs-42(II) use 1 woofer, the 52 and 62 use 2 woofers. wide dispersion patterns doesn't neccesarily mean wide radiating. besides that, the placement is in the corners and from bi-polar speakers you get sounds bouncing to the side-walls which to me doesn't benefit the soundfield for atmos and the positional soundfield they need to create.
From Klipsch's pro website, the VBAT surround models KPT-8-VB and KPT-12-VB have bipolar-like tweeters that fire in different directions (maybe not as wide a swath as a true bipole) with a single woofer. They say they're designed for the new audio formats like Atmos. There is, however, a much larger three-way KPT-4350-MS for really large auditoriums with dual woofers and dual tweeters.
Ethan Ong's Avatar Ethan Ong
08:33 AM Liked: 12
post #457 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 73
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I'm just wondering.
Currently my set-up is 9.2 (i.e. 7.2 + front height).

If I were to use 5.2.4, does it mean that in future when playing a blu ray movie encoded with 7.1, I'll lose the rear surround effect?

Thanks.
markus767's Avatar markus767
09:24 AM Liked: 534
post #458 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 6,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post
If I were to use 5.2.4, does it mean that in future when playing a blu ray movie encoded with 7.1, I'll lose the rear surround effect?
Yes. It will be redirected to the side surrounds.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
09:44 AM Liked: 675
post #459 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 9,329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post
True, but Dolby also specifies what the "recommended" configuration is for commercial environments versus "minimum" So a theater might have a recommendation speaker number of 30 points while having a number of 19 speakers you could conceivably get away with. And I'm sure we'll see some residential processors before too long that go for the 19 number that will certainly be cheaper than a high end one that allows 32.

One other thing about Atmos I've been thinking about. The system will obviously be a boon to customer installers. But not everyone is going to have a setup that will allow Atmos. There's an assumption in every diagram I've seen that says that people all have flat ceilings in their theater rooms. Many of us have vaulted ceilings. That would pose problems for most in-ceiling speaker designs, even for ones that allow some manual direction of the drivers. And reflective speakers on the ground wouldn't work at all.

And I've seen theaters in a couple of friends' McMansions that are located at the top of the house, underneath the main roof gable. The problem here is that often the ceilings are designed to be a pointed gable system too, which is just like having a vaulted ceiling, except you have 2 or 4 vaults to deal with. A solution might be to add a flat ceiling to the design at some point....a barn style ceiling as it were. My bonus room where my theater is has such a ceiling which would make installing ceiling mounted speakers possible. It would be a larger construction job, but if you have the budget, it may make sense for some people.
Speakers mounted on drop tubes, so that the speakers are in the correct position.
Schwa's Avatar Schwa
09:53 AM Liked: 318
post #460 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 2,101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post
I'm just wondering.
Currently my set-up is 9.2 (i.e. 7.2 + front height).

If I were to use 5.2.4, does it mean that in future when playing a blu ray movie encoded with 7.1, I'll lose the rear surround effect?

Thanks.
That's the way I understand it. However, per Denon's speaker positioning documents, front height speakers (assuming you're using bookshelves or in-walls on or close to the front wall aimed at the listening position) aren't in the proper location or configuration for Atmos.

I also have a 7.2 setup with two traditional front height speakers. I'm going to install an additional two in-ceiling speakers directly above the MLP. I'll then essentially have two speaker configurations to choose from -- one that uses the traditional 7.2 + front height speakers for DPLIIz/DSX/Neo:X, and one that uses the traditional 7.2 + in-ceiling speakers for Atmos.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani
10:15 AM Liked: 1205
post #461 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 20,395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
However, per Denon's speaker positioning documents, front height speakers (assuming you're using bookshelves or in-walls on or close to the front wall aimed at the listening position) aren't in the proper location or configuration for Atmos.
Denon's speaker positioning documents don't make sense when it comes to separating Height speakers (for Neo:X) from Top speakers (for Atmos).

For example: Height speakers can have anywhere from 30° elevation to 45° elevation while Top speakers can have anywhere from 30° elevation to 55° elevation. That's some overlap!

If the Denon document is to be believed, Atmos won't use a Height speaker mounted 45° up but will use a Top speaker mounted 45° up. Same speaker, same location.
Schwa's Avatar Schwa
10:31 AM Liked: 318
post #462 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Denon's speaker positioning documents don't make sense when it comes to separating Height speakers (for Neo:X) from Top speakers (for Atmos).

For example: Height speakers can have anywhere from 30° elevation to 45° elevation while Top speakers can have anywhere from 30° elevation to 55° elevation. That's some overlap!

If the Denon document is to be believed, Atmos won't use a Height speaker mounted 45° up but will use a Top speaker mounted 45° up. Same speaker, same location.
They make sense to me because I assume that height speakers and top speakers won't be used (maybe installed, but not used) at the same time. I think this is a reasonable assumption to make because Denon's document shows more than 11 speaker positions but we know that even the top-of-the-line Denon can't control more than 11 speakers at a time. Plus, Atmos "top" speakers are supposed to be in-ceiling, down-firing whereas height speakers are more traditional on-wall, in-wall, or bookshelf speakers. Nor could you since height speakers are typically mounted on-wall/in-wall whereas top speakers are in-ceiling.

IMO the overlap in the recommended speaker locations allows for more placement flexibility while preserving acceptable performance. Just because there's an overlap doesn't mean that their recommendations aren't valid. Some common sense has to be applied when installing speakers. If you want to use both heights and top speakers, clearly you can't install them both in the same location.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
10:35 AM Liked: 675
post #463 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 9,329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
So much so fast. I've been redoing my room over the last few monthsn and I'm now redesigning my baffle wall, and height speaker placement SINCE THE ATMOS news.

I had all planned and designed for front heights in the baffle wall behind the screen but now, in my readings and consulting with my designer, going to bring those front heights forward of my screen and point down to main listening area.

Fun times but a headache as things are still getting sorted out and few have any experience with these new surround codecs.

And I see no SSPs coming out soon with ATMOS.

I've committed to LCRS AND FRONT HEIGHT speakers doing at least 110 db at the main listening area as the front heights will get full, LCR like signals at times rather than 100% ambient sounds.
I have been building new LCR's and planning the rebuilding of my front baffle wall. I also was going to install front height speakers, but like you, will now use the speakers ceiling mounted for Atmos. I have a small room and have to decide if I want 5.1.4 or 7.1.2.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
10:50 AM Liked: 675
post #464 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 9,329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Sept. 10-13th in Denver, Colorado.

Anyone know if someone outside the industry, like me, can sign up to attend? I would LOOOOVE to go this time.
Info here: Forum Members going to CEDIA Expo
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
11:21 AM Liked: 668
post #465 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Thanks! Happy 4th!
sdurani's Avatar sdurani
12:00 PM Liked: 1205
post #466 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
They make sense to me because I assume that height speakers and top speakers won't be used (maybe installed, but not used) at the same time. I think this is a reasonable assumption to make because Denon's document shows more than 11 speaker positions but we know that even the top-of-the-line Denon can't control more than 11 speakers at a time.
Since Denon doesn't provide separate outputs for Heights and Tops, how would you switch between them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Just because there's an overlap doesn't mean that their recommendations aren't valid.
It does mean that the distinction they're trying to make between Heights and Tops doesn't exist from 30° elevation to 45° elevation .
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
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post #467 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Since Denon doesn't provide separate outputs for Heights and Tops, how would you switch between them? It does mean that the distinction they're trying to make between Heights and Tops doesn't exist from 30° elevation to 45° elevation .
Why not just have top speakers that comply with Atmos? There are upscaling modes coming out that work with Atmos' speaker layout. Whether or not they will be included in these first gen products, is up for debate I guess. I just don't see the need for doubling up on ceiling speaker locations for Atmos and a post-processing sound format that is probably now outdated.
FilmMixer's Avatar FilmMixer
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post #468 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaJoJo View Post
they can but probably won't as it involves a redo of the audio tracks. i think movies that have been in a atmos theater and have a object based master allready will be re-issued in blu-ray format atmos though, ther is a soon to come huge market for them. you can also use the avr's surroundprocessors to create a atmos alike soundfield for older movies.
Almost no studio wants to go in and remix with out the creatives being involved..

Home Atmos also adds up mixing (like PLIIx...)

From what I've heard of it, it's very impressive.
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
01:06 PM Liked: 668
post #469 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Almost no studio wants to go in and remix with out the creatives being involved..

Home Atmos also adds up mixing (like PLIIx...)

From what I've heard of it, it's very impressive.
It's weird that they would think this about audio, but seem to have no problem doing unsupervised video transfers. In many instances the original intent is screwed up... especially with new color timings, contrast boosting, etc.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering
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post #470 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 7,346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Almost no studio wants to go in and remix with out the creatives being involved..

Home Atmos also adds up mixing (like PLIIx...)

From what I've heard of it, it's very impressive.
Are you planning on attending CEDIA this year?
FilmMixer's Avatar FilmMixer
01:08 PM Liked: 618
post #471 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Are you planning on attending CEDIA this year?
Nope...

I'll be mixing away.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani
01:40 PM Liked: 1205
post #472 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 20,395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Why not just have top speakers that comply with Atmos?
That's fine by me. A pair of speakers at 45° elevation would comply with placement for both Atmos and Neo:X (for those want to continue using DTS' surround processing).
Schwa's Avatar Schwa
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post #473 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Since Denon doesn't provide separate outputs for Heights and Tops, how would you switch between them?
I asked JD about this since I want to run two different height/top speaker configurations: one 7.2 + middle tops for Atmos, and one 7.2 + front heights for DPLIIz/Neo:X/DSX. I'll be connecting a total of 11 speakers to my receiver but only using 9 at any given time. Here's what he told me:

The actual configuration selection will be handled by the AMP ASSIGN setting as is currently done.

What is unclear at this point is whether the X7200W will be able to remember two separate speaker configurations at the same time; otherwise, in order to switch between the two configurations I intend to use, I'd have to change the AMP ASSIGN setting every time I want to switch speaker configurations. I can connect all 11 speakers to the receiver at the same time, but there are only 9 amplifiers, hence the need to use AMP ASSIGN every time I switch active speaker configurations. If I have to change the AMP ASSIGN setting, then I assume I'd have to re-run Audyssey, and that's a huge pain. The other alternative would be to use an external amp and provide power to all 11 speakers at once....this way I'd only have to run Audyssey once and it could measure all 11 speakers in one pass. Presumably the receiver would then be smart enough to use the proper speakers depending on the sound mode that's engaged. I'm guessing this is the way this will work, but I won't know for sure until the manuals are published.
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
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How well will Atmos work/sound with vaulted ceilings, the right side is about 10ft and the left is about 16ft ?
Would I need to in some way hang the needed speakers on the left side, do all speakers need to be the same height?
sdurani's Avatar sdurani
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post #475 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
What is unclear at this point is whether the X7200W will be able to remember two separate speaker configurations at the same time; otherwise, in order to switch between the two configurations I intend to use, I'd have to change the AMP ASSIGN setting every time I want to switch speaker configurations.
Even if Amp Assign worked the way you wanted, how are you going to switch between Height speakers and Top speakers when the X7200W only has connections (speaker level or pre-out) for a single pair of heights up front and a single pair of heights behind? Or are you going to forego doing 4 heights?



Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
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post #476 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
How well will Atmos work/sound with vaulted ceilings, the right side is about 10ft and the left is about 16ft ?
Would I need to in some way hang the needed speakers on the left side, do all speakers need to be the same height?
You need to use posts mounted to the ceiling to equalize the height of the speakers.
Schwa's Avatar Schwa
02:58 PM Liked: 318
post #477 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Even if Amp Assign worked the way you wanted, how are you going to switch between Height speakers and Top speakers when the X7200W only has connections (speaker level or pre-out) for a single pair of heights up front and a single pair of heights behind? Or are you going to forego doing 4 heights?


I'm only going with two front heights and two in-ceiling (Atmos) tops. But I did ask JD how this would work, and this is what he said.
joehonest's Avatar joehonest
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post #478 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You need to use posts mounted to the ceiling to equalize the height of the speakers.
That's what i thought, and running the wiring and in this case the worse part , man thats a alot of work for me!
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
03:25 PM Liked: 668
post #479 of 20118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
That's what i thought, and running the wiring and in this case the worse part , man thats a alot of work for me!
But probably oh, so worth it!
Tom Grooms's Avatar Tom Grooms
04:06 PM Liked: 170
post #480 of 20118
07-04-2014 | Posts: 2,212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You need to use posts mounted to the ceiling to equalize the height of the speakers.
That would look ridiculous (imo). I'd try in-ceiling speakers and let the AVR adjust the distance.

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