The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 166 - AVS Forum
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post #4951 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The issue (not just the X4100W but the higher models is well) is that it appears they support a MAX of FOUR height/top speakers. The "Front Wide" outputs can't be configured to output a third pair of height speaker signals. The six outputs beyond the standard 7.1ch layout are for four height/top speakers and two front wide speakers.

So while it certainly appears possible to switch between an Atmos output with 4 top speakers and a Neo:X layout with wide + 2 height speakers, it does NOT appear possible to switch between 4 top speakers for Atmos and a SEPARATE pair of front height speakers for Neo:X or PLIIz (i.e. SIX total elevated speakers).

Or, in other words, the only way to switch between Atmos surround and "legacy" surround upmix is if the FIRST pair of elevated speakers are designated as Front Height so they can be "shared" between the modes. Thus it would only work with <Front Height + Top Middle / Top Rear / Rear Height> configs.
Thanks Sir batpig! (I have had you honored as a knight of the realm of Olde Englande for services to Denon - of the garter order, obviously ).

So I will be good to go, since my intended designation of the ceiling speakers at 42 degrees is Front Height, to be used with Top Middle.

It's not all that important to me TBH as I am expecting Dolby Surround will be better than any legacy upmixer, but as the speakers are there, and it is easier to leave them in place than remove them, I may as well give it a try. I have enough amps lying around here to do it.

Thanks again - you are truly an encyclopedic cornucopia of knowledge of all things Denon.


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post #4952 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Probably stating the obvious, but does anybody know if the new Dolby Surround also become available when the Atmos FW is ready? IOW will buyers of the new Atmos-ready AVR or pre/pros have a "head start" with Dolby Surround, or have to stay with their legacy upmixers until the firmware upgrade will be ready?
AIUI, DS will be part of the FW upgrade to Atmos. All Atmos units are mandated to have DS, but I doubt if DS will be available on its own.


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post #4953 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Probably stating the obvious, but does anybody know if the new Dolby Surround also become available when the Atmos FW is ready? IOW will buyers of the new Atmos-ready AVR or pre/pros have a "head start" with Dolby Surround, or have to stay with their legacy upmixers until the firmware upgrade will be ready?
That's a very good question. It hasn't been super clear really.

I believe that these devices will not have either full decoded Atmos and the upmixer at start and that both will be included when the updates roll out.

It would be interesting if we got the upmixer to play with beforehand. That doesn't appear to be the case and really it's up to the CE's to decide how to implement that feature.

My guess is that we will have to wait for the upmixer along with decoded Atmos.


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post #4954 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
That's a very good question. It hasn't been super clear really.

I believe that these devices will not have either full decoded Atmos and the upmixer at start and that both will be included when the updates roll out.

It would be interesting if we got the upmixer to play with beforehand. That doesn't appear to be the case and really it's up to the CE's to decide how to implement that feature.

My guess is that we will have to wait for the upmixer along with decoded Atmos.

Mine too, but we'll learn more @ CEDIA, hopefully, when at least some of us are there .


Slight raining on the parade: With all the enthusiasm about Atmos on AVS (at least among a bubble of hard-core hobbyists), the elephant in the room is Dolby Surround, as the vast majority of content in the near future will be upmixed and not native Atmos. Otherwise, no offense Keith and FM, but those top-firing or ceiling speaker modules aren't going to particularly useful when you get your new AVRs except as "front heights" with Neo:X or Audyssey DSX, maybe (as Dolby PLII is now dead technology in these AVRs, correct?).

From a marketing POV, what would be weird about the firmware for Dolby Surround coming down the pike is that as per FM, Pioneer's already announced the release of the Andrew Jones speakers and Elite AVRs with Atmos capability.

If Dolby Surround isn't ready for the release, you're asking consumers to take a chance that those shiny new Andrew Jones speakers they're buying will "eventually" be ready for prime time over buying conventional non-Atmos capable speakers or keeping existing speakers. If I were planning to buy a Pioneer Atmos-capable AVR (I'm not, for several reasons) I would buy them and wait, and many if not most of the folks here would do the same, but asking Joe Consumer shopping at Magnolia to wait is another thing. I know late August/September is roughly the traditional release schedule for Pioneer Elites, but they might be better off waiting until at least Dolby Surround is ready to keep up the momentum.


At any rate, I personally am not buying anything Atmos-related until after CEDIA.

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post #4955 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Mine too, but we'll learn more @ CEDIA, hopefully, when at least some of us are there .


Slight raining on the parade: With all the enthusiasm about Atmos on AVS (at least among a bubble of hard-core hobbyists), the elephant in the room is Dolby Surround, as the vast majority of content in the near future will be upmixed and not native Atmos. Otherwise, no offense Keith and FM, but those top-firing or ceiling speaker modules aren't going to particularly useful when you get your new AVRs except as "front heights" with Neo:X or Audyssey DSX, maybe (as Dolby PLII is now dead technology in these AVRs, correct?).

From a marketing POV, what would be weird about the firmware for Dolby Surround coming down the pike is that as per FM, Pioneer's already announced the release of the Andrew Jones speakers and Elite AVRs with Atmos capability.

If Dolby Surround isn't ready for the release, you're asking consumers to take a chance that those shiny new Andrew Jones speakers they're buying will "eventually" be ready for prime time over buying conventional non-Atmos capable speakers or keeping existing speakers. If I were planning to buy a Pioneer Atmos-capable AVR (I'm not, for several reasons) I would buy them and wait, and many if not most of the folks here would do the same, but asking Joe Consumer shopping at Magnolia to wait is another thing. I know late August/September is roughly the traditional release schedule for Pioneer Elites, but they might be better off waiting until at least Dolby Surround is ready to keep up the momentum.


At any rate, I personally am not buying anything Atmos-related until after CEDIA.
No offense taken here, Stuart, at all. I have always said that DS will be hugely important for the very reason you mention. I am guessing that it comes with the FW upgrade as it is part of the total package. And it would be bad marketing, IMO, to offer it independently of Atmos anyway - it would allow people to hear a 'less than perfect'. 'sort of' Atmos which could then prejudice their opinion of the real thing when it comes.

I have been hugely impressed at how this is all being marketed, and while there may be other reasons for not releasing DS as a standalone thing, the marketing angle alone is compelling IMO. It would certainly be my advice if I was involved in Dolby's marketing at all.

At any rate, I am 99.99% sure that DS will not be announced independently of Atmos and can't see any good reason why it should. To use DS properly, you need an Atmos speaker configuration and anyone doing that will also want a true Atmos experience from their AVR. IMO.
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post #4956 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:10 AM
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No offense taken here, Stuart, at all. I have always said that DS will be hugely important for the very reason you mention. I am guessing that it comes with the FW upgrade as it is part of the total package. And it would be bad marketing, IMO, to offer it independently of Atmos anyway - it would allow people to hear a 'less than perfect'. 'sort of' Atmos which could then prejudice their opinion of the real thing when it comes.

I have been hugely impressed at how this is all being marketed, and while there may be other reasons for not releasing DS as a standalone thing, the marketing angle alone is compelling IMO. It would certainly be my advice if I was involved in Dolby's marketing at all.

At any rate, I am 99.99% sure that DS will not be announced independently of Atmos and can't see any good reason why it should. To use DS properly, you need an Atmos speaker configuration and anyone doing that will also want a true Atmos experience from their AVR. IMO.

We can agree to disagree there: the wisdom of having all the Atmos-related firmware downloadable at one time as part of an integrated plan, vs. having Dolby Surround that can use the Atmos-capable speakers ahead of when home Atmos is ready. YMMV, but IMO if Dolby Surround is ready to go, and is "pretty good", I'd like to have it to get a taste of what Atmos might be like with those AJ or Atmos-oriented speakers, set up in the true Atmos speaker configuration.

At any rate, while that's what I'd want ideally as a buyer, you're probably right that it will all be ready and available at the same time.

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post #4957 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Otherwise, no offense Keith and FM, but those top-firing or ceiling speaker modules aren't going to particularly useful when you get your new AVRs except as "front heights" with Neo:X or Audyssey DSX, maybe (as Dolby PLII is now dead technology in these AVRs, correct?).
Remains to be seen whether the height processing and the three-way crossover are only active with Atmos decoding and DS upmixing but not Neo:X or DSX. I would guess/hope that the height processing and crossover are a condition of configuring the receiver for upward-firing speakers, not something that remains on only for Dolby modes. If it is as I hope, then Neo:X can benefit from virtual heights as well.

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post #4958 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:26 AM
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I'm waiting and listening.........ceiling cloud is all ready for Atmos implementation............




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post #4959 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:33 AM
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Remains to be seen whether the height processing and the three-way crossover are only active with Atmos decoding and DS upmixing but not Neo:X or DSX. I would guess/hope that the height processing and crossover are a condition of configuring the receiver for upward-firing speakers, not something that remains on only for Dolby modes. If it is as I hope, then Neo:X can benefit from virtual heights as well.
I may be missing something but I don't think you can use DSX, Neo:X, etc. with the "virtual" Atmos height speakers.

Taking the Denon as an example, you have to specifically designate that you are using "Dolby enabled" speakers when configuring your height speakers layout. And the surround output chart clearly indicates that these speakers only make noise in Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround modes.

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post #4960 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:40 AM
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I don't think you can use DSX, Neo:X, etc. with the "virtual" Atmos height speakers.
Too bad. There is a version of Neo:X that uses 4 heights in a 7.1.4 configuration that could benefit from virtual height speakers (even if their overhead spots are not in the ideal locations for Neo). Hope it becomes format agnostic in the future.

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post #4961 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:49 AM
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The issue (not just the X4100W but the higher models is well) is that it appears they support a MAX of FOUR height/top speakers. The "Front Wide" outputs can't be configured to output a third pair of height speaker signals. The six outputs beyond the standard 7.1ch layout are for four height/top speakers and two front wide speakers.

So while it certainly appears possible to switch between an Atmos output with 4 top speakers and a Neo:X layout with wide + 2 height speakers, it does NOT appear possible to switch between 4 top speakers for Atmos and a SEPARATE pair of front height speakers for Neo:X or PLIIz (i.e. SIX total elevated speakers).

Or, in other words, the only way to switch between Atmos surround and "legacy" surround upmix is if the FIRST pair of elevated speakers are designated as Front Height so they can be "shared" between the modes. Thus it would only work with <Front Height + Top Middle / Top Rear / Rear Height> configs.
As I read it, you can use Front Wide (page 168) while NEO:X is selected and (page 209) Wide/Height is set to Default while still be able to play 7.1.4 with 4 Top speakers.
My setup will be: Assign Mode 11.1 with 4 height speakers (Top Front and Top Rear) with Wide Height set to Front Wide and Pre Out set to Top Rear.
This means that 11 speakers are connected to the unit and the Top Rears are connected using a pre amp on Pre Out Height 2.
With this config I ass-u-me that I can play 9.1 with Front Wide from NEO:X and 7.1.4 with Dolby Surround.

Please correct me if I am wrong. This is how I am setup right now and if it cannot be done this way I guess my Front Wides will have to sit until some next gen Denon arrives at the scene.
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post #4962 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:54 AM
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Definitive Technology A60 module rated at 100W for maximum watt handling and 100W for peak power handling, something to keep in mind if you're considering doing A60s.

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post #4963 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 10:59 AM
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As I read it, you can use Front Wide (page 168) while NEO:X is selected and (page 209) Wide/Height is set to Default while still be able to play 7.1.4 with 4 Top speakers.
My setup will be: Assign Mode 11.1 with 4 height speakers (Top Front and Top Rear) with Wide Height set to Front Wide and Pre Out set to Top Rear.
This means that 11 speakers are connected to the unit and the Top Rears are connected using a pre amp on Pre Out Height 2.
With this config I ass-u-me that I can play 9.1 with Front Wide from NEO:X and 7.1.4 with Dolby Surround.

Please correct me if I am wrong. This is how I am setup right now and if it cannot be done this way I guess my Front Wides will have to sit until some next gen Denon arrives at the scene.

Again, I think there are two key restrictions that are inviolate:

1. You can only have FOUR elevated speakers (so you can't have four "top" speakers for Atmos and a separate pair of "Front Height" for Neo:X/DSX)
2. If you want to "share" one of those pairs of elevated speakers between Atmos and "legacy" non-Atmos height upmixers, the Height1 output must be designated as FRONT HEIGHT.

It may be academic if your forward pair of elevated speakers is placed within the angular range for BOTH the "Top Front" and "Front Height" assignments, but (based on the chart on pg 287) both DSX and Neo:X can only provide height output to the speaker pair designated as FRONT HEIGHT.

Beyond that, it appears to be free range to connect up to 13 speakers (4 high and 2 wide in addition to the standard 7.1) and switch among Atmos, Dolby Surround, Neo:X and DSX modes. Provided you have sufficient channels of amplification for all 13 speakers.

Anyway... all that being said, it sounds like you want to switch between 9.1 Neo:X (no height speakers, 7.1 + Front Wide) and Atmos in 7.1.4 (four "Top" speakers). This shouldn't be a problem, although again by designating the front pair of elevated speakers as "Front Height" instead of "Top Front" you could switch between 11ch DSX (7.1 + wide + height) and 7.1.4 Atmos. But if you prefer it that way to keep the Atmos config "ideal" with Top Front + Top Rear assignments, it will work.

However, unless I'm wrong it DOES appear you will need FOUR extra channels of external amps. This is based on the paragraph on pg 210:

When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back. Furthermore,
when two sets of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Audyssey DSX® or Neo:X are played back in addition to when
Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back.

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post #4964 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:19 AM
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We can agree to disagree there: the wisdom of having all the Atmos-related firmware downloadable at one time as part of an integrated plan, vs. having Dolby Surround that can use the Atmos-capable speakers ahead of when home Atmos is ready.
Yep It would be disastrous IMO.

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YMMV, but IMO if Dolby Surround is ready to go, and is "pretty good", I'd like to have it to get a taste of what Atmos might be like with those AJ or Atmos-oriented speakers, set up in the true Atmos speaker configuration.

That's the problem. You’d have a go and then think a) it's pretty good but I was expecting better or b) it's disappointing, I was expecting better. I just can’t see a single benefit in it from Dolby's POV.

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At any rate, while that's what I'd want ideally as a buyer, you're probably right that it will all be ready and available at the same time.
If it isn't, I will eat my best Panama hat without sauce.


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post #4965 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:20 AM
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post #4966 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:21 AM
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I'm waiting and listening.........ceiling cloud is all ready for Atmos implementation............
You can only imagine how much I hate you for that room! LOL
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post #4967 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:28 AM
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Reminds me of the song by Zager and Evans - "In the year 2525"
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I'm waiting and listening.........ceiling cloud is all ready for Atmos implementation............

Nice, vewy nice.
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post #4969 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
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Again, I think there are two key restrictions that are inviolate:

1. You can only have FOUR elevated speakers (so you can't have four "top" speakers for Atmos and a separate pair of "Front Height" for Neo:X/DSX)
2. If you want to "share" one of those pairs of elevated speakers between Atmos and "legacy" non-Atmos height upmixers, the Height1 output must be designated as FRONT HEIGHT.

It may be academic if your forward pair of elevated speakers is placed within the angular range for BOTH the "Top Front" and "Front Height" assignments, but (based on the chart on pg 287) both DSX and Neo:X can only provide height output to the speaker pair designated as FRONT HEIGHT.

Beyond that, it appears to be free range to connect up to 13 speakers (4 high and 2 wide in addition to the standard 7.1) and switch among Atmos, Dolby Surround, Neo:X and DSX modes. Provided you have sufficient channels of amplification for all 13 speakers.

Anyway... all that being said, it sounds like you want to switch between 9.1 Neo:X (no height speakers, 7.1 + Front Wide) and Atmos in 7.1.4 (four "Top" speakers). This shouldn't be a problem, although again by designating the front pair of elevated speakers as "Front Height" instead of "Top Front" you could switch between 11ch DSX (7.1 + wide + height) and 7.1.4 Atmos. But if you prefer it that way to keep the Atmos config "ideal" with Top Front + Top Rear assignments, it will work.

However, unless I'm wrong it DOES appear you will need FOUR extra channels of external amps. This is based on the paragraph on pg 210:

When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back. Furthermore,
when two sets of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Audyssey DSX® or Neo:X are played back in addition to when
Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back.
I want to play 7.1.4 = 11Ch in Atmos / Dolby Surround and play 9.1 in NEO:x. In NEO:X only the pair connected to Wide/Height2 speaker terminal and no Height 1 (Top Front) and Pre Out Height 2 (Top Rear). So the above statement is fully correct. I don't need 4 amps because I don't use 11.1 in NEO:X because I don;t have FH's combined with FW's. Page 287 tells me that NEO:X can output sound to FW and FW is connected to terminals Wide/Height2 and assigned as stated above. Again, time will tell but I really think this is going to work.
I cannot go for Atmos FH + Top Middle because that would place my Atmos Front Ceiling pair way to far out. I have 4 ceiling speakers connected and maintained my current Wide speakers and those I would still like to be able to use but without any of the Top speakers obviously because of limitations of the unit.

So yes, 13 speakers connected while using 9 or 11 at a time and when using 11, the Height 2 Pre Out for Top Rear is being used.

Last edited by Bumper; 08-21-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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post #4970 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:47 AM
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There is a version of Neo:X that uses 4 heights in a 7.1.4 configuration that could benefit from virtual height speakers (even if their overhead spots are not in the ideal locations for Neo). Hope it becomes format agnostic in the future.


That does seem possible when we look at the story behind the "X" in "Neo:X", as excerpted from a small 'puff piece' interview with DTS about Neo:X on TechRadar com (link):

Quote:
"When we showed 11.1, we came up with a concept called 'Neo:X' – where 'X' could be any number within reason. 'X' for CES was 11.

[11.1] was what we showed. It could be 11, it could be 9, it could be 13, it could be 366. The Master Audio algorithm is very expandable."
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post #4971 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:49 AM
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That was sort of the claim to fame of their algorithm that it would be expandable to essentially an unlimited amount of speakers. Hence the moniker Neo:X.

Will interesting to see what they bring to the table.


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post #4972 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:56 AM
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Hey guys,
Any opinions on Triad in-ceilings (silver or gold) for Atmos? Also, any idea on their approx cost?

Steve
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post #4973 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 11:58 AM
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Reminds me of the song by Zager and Evans...In the year 2525
I remember that song perfect for the 60's - very nihilistic.

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post #4974 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 12:20 PM
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Any opinions on Triad in-ceilings (silver or gold) for Atmos?
Triad might be making an announcement at CEDIA.

Sanjay
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post #4975 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 12:49 PM
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Please remind me to invite you over whenever mine is ready! Only a train trip away...

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post #4976 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 01:01 PM
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There's little chance but I wonder if older (2-3 year) AVR's will see the new Dolby Surround firmware update? That would be nice.

2015 it is.
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post #4977 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 01:03 PM
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There's little chance but I wonder if older (2-3 year) AVR's will see the new Dolby Surround firmware update? That would be nice.
They will not. It only works with Atmos speaker positions. ProLogic was designed to work with current speaker positions.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #4978 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 01:08 PM
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That's the problem. You’d have a go and then think a) it's pretty good but I was expecting better or b) it's disappointing, I was expecting better. I just can’t see a single benefit in it from Dolby's POV.

If it isn't, I will eat my best Panama hat without sauce.

Speaking as a relative Atmos insider (you've been to two more Dolby presentations than the vast majority of us have to date ), I can see you saying that. As a consumer, I'd take what I can get to get a taste of it, and I'd hope that the simulated product (DS) is good enough to compel me to want the real thing and look for Atmos specific mixes. But as we know, consumer convenience doesn't drive marketing decisions.


However, there's actually another consideration to support your POV: if you lead with Dolby Surround rather than the ability to decode Atmos natively, and it's as "very good" as indicated by some, less people will go out and buy Atmos mixes because they'll be satisfied with the DS upmixing (technical points about what DS is doing vs. Atmos aside being beyond the scope of Joe Consumer). That's a bad thing for studios, since for them, Dolby Surround is really just a curiosity to bridge people to Atmos until more Atmos mixes are available. Not that there's a cabal of profit maximizers, but I can see common interests converging toward Dolby Surround following Atmos (or released concurrently) vs. leading the way to get people into buying Atmos receivers.

Besides, only us enthusiasts worry about stuff like this. And we certainly don't drive the market.

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post #4979 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 01:17 PM
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^^
I think it's reasonable to expect Dolby Surround to be at least as good as PLIIx is on music as well as movies. Surely Dolby is going to deliver the goods for its new upmixing. But it is kind of interesting that no demo has included it.

(Also interesting - I asked Walkamo about it and unless I misunderstand him, he's not had the opportunity either. Apparently, demos to them as a mfg have been with Atmos tracks but not std material.)

That tells me it's still an unknown & we have to take Dolby's word that it will be "better". Not being negative at all, just kind of summarizing what people haven't heard who have been part of evaluations & demos.

Steve
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post #4980 of 9553 Old 08-21-2014, 01:19 PM
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There's little chance but I wonder if older (2-3 year) AVR's will see the new Dolby Surround firmware update? That would be nice.
Not possible

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