The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 173 - AVS Forum
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post #5161 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Most people I know that are still using DVDs. If they stopped making DVDs, they would not switch to BD. .
Not even if the BD discs were more or less the same price as current DVD discs?
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post #5162 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 05:38 AM
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Robin hood country, so are you a Forest or County fan?
Neither. But my mates, Alan-a-Dale and Will Scarlet, are. Although Much The Miller's Son is a rugby fan TBH
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post #5163 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
I've not read about any A vs B for the upmixer on non-atmos mix, why?
Because the only demos anyone has heard so far have been the Dolby 'industry & press' demos and at those they didn't have DS available on the laptop which fed the content out. I expect people will be clamouring for the demo you are after (me too) at CEDIA, and of course, as units are now shipping, we can expect some reports here on AVS from the very early adopters such as FilmMixer.
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post #5164 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
No, rather based on the region so USA model is 120v/60Hz.
Ah right - thanks JD. One less decision for me to make then.
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post #5165 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Note that although this demo disc exists, it is not shipping with the X5200W units, or rather at least not with the USA units.
Dolby, London weren't even aware of its existence. I told them that Dolby, Hong Kong had them, and that I'd seen pictures of them, and Dolby, London said they would 'look into it' and promised to send me one if they became available for the UK.
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post #5166 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 06:04 AM
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post #5167 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That would have applied to the change from cassette to CD as well though, but they still did it. Why? Because the content stopped being available on cassette. Same thing would be sure to happen if the content stopped being available on DVD. What would the car manufacturers do - carry on installing DVD players for an obsolete format, install nothing, or install players that could play the format in common use? I suspect the latter.

Your point makes perfect sense as long as there are DVDs. My postulation embraces a world where there are no more DVDs (being released).
Last point on market demand:
FYI - Auto Luxury brands carried cassette capability in headunits thru 2010....them old gezers just did not want to throw away what still "worked", until market demand dwindled they were offered
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-vehicles.html

I did a 4 year stint in my companies OE Accessory division 2004-2008, trust me way back when the iPod and digital video was brand new I was all over that, trying to get a paradigm shift into going to just screens with capability for any mobile device to provide the audio/video.....the market data was just not there then and appears not there now...
I miss those days, when CES was really cool and neat....
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post #5168 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Looks like the Denon X5200W will be the first Atmos included AVR to be released and available as of today.
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
All D&M Atmos AVRs and pre-pros will be released with Atmos "on board" beginning with the X5200W, likely followed by the SR7009 in a week or two, and then the X4100W a week or two later.
Wow, Denon is first with Atmos; awesome! ... August 22, 2014

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post #5169 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Somebody is buying them. I thought there were fifteen available earlier today.

I had purchased the second one which brought the count down to 13. Scheduled to be here Tuesday!
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post #5170 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 07:34 AM
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I had purchased the second one which brought the count down to 13. Scheduled to be here Tuesday!
Congratulations!
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post #5171 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Note that although this demo disc exists, it is not shipping with the X5200W units, or rather at least not with the USA units.
Rats!!!!!!!!!

I hope that FilmMixer will confirm or deny this when he--as presumably first on the block--gets his unit.
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post #5172 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
I had purchased the second one which brought the count down to 13. Scheduled to be here Tuesday!
Congratulations I'm very jealous maybe this time next year I'll be upgrading as well let us know how upmixing sounds.
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post #5173 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That would have applied to the change from cassette to CD as well though, but they still did it. Why? Because the content stopped being available on cassette. Same thing would be sure to happen if the content stopped being available on DVD. What would the car manufacturers do - carry on installing DVD players for an obsolete format, install nothing, or install players that could play the format in common use? I suspect the latter.

Your point makes perfect sense as long as there are DVDs. My postulation embraces a world where there are no more DVDs (being released).
In that world there probably aren't any BDs being released either. Everyone is using digital downloads instead. I just can't see them dropping DVDs when BDs will never gain the popularity that DVDs had. Plus Digital has already surpassed DVD and BD sales combined(Digital surpassed Disc sales for the first time in the first half of 2014. And digital sales are increasing much faster than BD sales). By the time BD sales surpass DVD sales, Digital will have left them both in the dust.

http://www.digital-digest.com/news-6...ses-Discs.html
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post #5174 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
In that world there probably aren't any BDs being released either. Everyone is using digital downloads instead. I just can't see them dropping DVDs when BDs will never gain the popularity that DVDs had. Plus Digital has already surpassed DVD and BD sales combined(Digital surpassed Disc sales for the first time in the first half of 2014. And digital sales are increasing much faster than BD sales). By the time BD sales surpass DVD sales, Digital will have left them both in the dust.

http://www.digital-digest.com/news-6...ses-Discs.html
We are getting way OT and I never intended so much discussion of what was, for me anyway, just a throwaway remark, so this will be my last post on this subject. Yes, I agree that streaming or downloading may, one day, replace physical discs. The huge fly in the ointment is the broadband speed that many people have, especially those living well outside urban environments. Almost all the people who live around me for example have broadband speeds of less than 2 Mbps. This makes the idea of streaming and downloading Blu-ray quality video and sound a pure pipe dream. I had to go to enormous and expensive lengths to get a broadband speed of 30Mbps and most people aren’t sufficiently interested or just can't afford that option. And, of course, if streaming and downloading has to be tailored to realistic BB speed expectations in rural areas, then the video and audio quality will be abysmal. I expect BB speeds to improve over time in the UK and the USA and Europe, but there will still be significant markets where streaming and downloading are years away.

The situation will only become worse when 4K video, Atmos and any other technology which increases the amount of data needing to be transferred become more widely adopted. I see a huge discrepancy between the industry push to 4K on one hand and the desire for streaming and downloading on the other. 4K is being introduced because it brings substantial potential improvements in video quality, but with substantially increased file sizes. Streaming and downloading is touted as the future, but it is largely incompatible with those huge file sizes. So will we end up in a situation where people have spent considerable money in order to have a 4K TV or display, but all they can view on it will be low-quality, highly compressed content that can be downloaded on sub-optimal BB connections? Makes no sense to me.

All in all I conclude therefore that while Bluray might be the last physical format, it will be with us for many years, maybe even decades, to come.
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post #5175 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I hope that FilmMixer will confirm or deny this when he--as presumably first on the block--gets his unit.
I expect that there have been a few one-off's for trade demos.

There is a new demo disc being prepared, and I am promised one as soon as they are available..
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As many commenters have pointed out, some Onkyo models have had a troubled history for HDMI reliability. This is something we considered while writing this guide, but not something we’ve been able to pin down. Since Onkyo has been one of the best-selling AVR brands for many years, usually filling the top Best Seller spots at Amazon, there are a lot of them out there. Trying to determine if HDMI issues are something inherent to Onkyo because of a design flaw, or because they just sell more and have more reports, is something we can’t be certain
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post #5177 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Note that although this demo disc exists, it is not shipping with the X5200W units, or rather at least not with the USA units.
That sucks! For $2K, Denon should include the demo disc so that owners have at least a gnat's ass worth of Atmos content to try until Atmos BD's are available for purchase.
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post #5178 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:19 AM
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^^
Until then you can use the Dolby Surround setting to get an idea of the effect.

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post #5179 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Interesting. I hooked up a pair of Di5 DCs to my very high quality Class A amp, and fed it a CD from my equally high quality Naim CD player, and on careful listening to some vocal jazz I didn't detect any issues at all.
As you know or should know, the brand of equipment and class of amp (as long as it's a standard model with flat FR into an actual load, low noise, etc.) aren't relevant to this discussion. FWIW signal chain in my case is MacBook/iPhone/iPad wirelessly to Apple AirPort Express, APE used as DAC, minijack to RCA cable, Parasound Zamp v3, 14/4 CL3-rated copper (same as used in the living room). Basically just a standard extension system, nothing special at all.

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Have you been able to measure this 'audible resonance' at all? I guess I could hook up REW and do a temporary install of the Di5 in the HT, but In didn't because I didn't hear anything obviously untoward in my listening test.

How would you characterise the resonance you are hearing?
Try something with vocals. They have a bit of a nasal tinge to them. Not so offensive as to make them unlistenable, mind, but IMO better for background music than for a primary system.

They're speakers I had installed on my upstairs balcony so we could enjoy background music while sitting outside. I bought them because they were the biggest thing with concentric drivers (I don't use anything else - have a house full of speakers with concentric drivers by Tannoy, Pioneer/TAD, and KEF...) that would fit in the space without making my wife scream like the mention of installing my Tannoy i8AW's up there did. I didn't listen to them before they went up, let alone measure them.

However, I noticed a similar coloration a while back with the Tannoy Arena eggs I used to use as surrounds (atop the factory "tulip" stands) in my old DVD-A/SACD desktop/nearfield system (Tannoy System 8 NFM II LCR mains, DIY closed box sub with JBL W15GTi woofer) when I tried them in front. (As surrounds I didn't notice any issues.) Sound and Vision measured the Arena eggs, and their measurements show a spike between 1kHz and 2kHz that correlates well with what I hear from my balcony Di5DC's.


(top trace)

I suspect the Arena shares most of its driver innards* with the Di5DC.

For reference, this is the kind of axial and polar performance to which I'm acclimated:



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post #5180 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:25 AM
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That sucks! For $2K, Denon should include the demo disc so that owners have at least a gnat's ass worth of Atmos content to try until Atmos BD's are available for purchase.
It sucks but I doubt it is Denon's fault. It's probably a rights management and IP issue. Those are enormously complex to arrange - look at the problems Dolby had when showing 'unathorised content' at their London demo. And that was material that had already been released a long time ago theatrically too - but Dolby needed a separate license to show it at their demos, which I assume has still not been negotiated. So many different people and organisations can be required to consent - the author of the original work, the studio, the distributor, the director, the producers, even some of the actors. So unless you want a disc with nothing more than Dolby trailers on it (and even there there could be problems), it will take some time to negotiate with all the parties and for all the different markets.

It may be significant that Hong Kong is the only place, as far as we know, that has a demo disc out. China has a rather 'different' view about copyright and IP than we are used to in the West
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post #5181 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
As you know or should know, the brand of equipment and class of amp (as long as it's a standard model with flat FR into an actual load, low noise, etc.) aren't relevant to this discussion.
Sure I mentioned the gear in the chain just so nobody might have come back with some sort of challenge that I used a 10 dollar Chinese disc player and a 1970s amp of uncertain quality and provenance

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Try something with vocals. They have a bit of a nasal tinge to them. Not so offensive as to make them unlistenable, mind, but IMO better for background music than for a primary system.
I did use vocals - always do for listening tests. On this occasion I used Eva Cassidy and Norah Jones as I find their voices are nicely pitched to show up problems, and as I am also familiar with the albums on a variety of systems.

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However, I noticed a similar coloration a while back with the Tannoy Arena eggs I used to use as surrounds (atop the factory "tulip" stands) in my old DVD-A/SACD desktop/nearfield system (Tannoy System 8 NFM II LCR mains, DIY closed box sub with JBL W15GTi woofer) when I tried them in front. (As surrounds I didn't notice any issues.) Sound and Vision measured the Arena eggs, and their measurements show a spike between 1kHz and 2kHz that correlates well with what I hear from my balcony Di5DC's.
Thanks. As I say, I didn’t notice it here - I'll perhaps try it again. I expect EQ will deal with a relatively small spike. If I get the chance next week I'll set them up in the HT and run some REW sweeps. I'm recovering from an unpleasant operation on my jaw and it has left me a bit lethargic, although I did just manage a 70 minute workout in my gym, so maybe I'm on the mend

EDIT: TBH, I don't think a small anomaly in the mid-range (or nasal tinge) is going to be much of a problem for Atmos ceiling speakers even if EQ can't deal with it.

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post #5182 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:35 AM
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The picture of the demo disc in the Japanese "review" of the 5200 showed a blue recording surface, not an aluminized one. In other words, it was not mass-produced.

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post #5183 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
In that world there probably aren't any BDs being released either. Everyone is using digital downloads instead. I just can't see them dropping DVDs when BDs will never gain the popularity that DVDs had. Plus Digital has already surpassed DVD and BD sales combined(Digital surpassed Disc sales for the first time in the first half of 2014. And digital sales are increasing much faster than BD sales). By the time BD sales surpass DVD sales, Digital will have left them both in the dust.

http://www.digital-digest.com/news-6...ses-Discs.html
Physical DVD and Blu-Ray are going the way of our local rental Video stores. ...Way of the dodo.
And that's a very good thing in a very material and greedy world. ...Big companies...

What I (we, very few) prefer personally has nothing to do with the world's current affairs (masses).
Because the Internet is faster becoming as materially greedy. ...Hi-res downloads that are NOT..

Methinks & all that jazz...

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post #5184 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
The picture of the demo disc in the Japanese "review" of the 5200 showed a blue recording surface, not an aluminized one. In other words, it was not mass-produced.
Good catch, Sherlock So it was a pirated home-brew. Well, it was Hong Kong....
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post #5185 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It sucks but I doubt it is Denon's fault. It's probably a rights management and IP issue. Those are enormously complex to arrange - look at the problems Dolby had when showing 'unathorised content' at their London demo. And that was material that had already been released a long time ago theatrically too - but Dolby needed a separate license to show it at their demos, which I assume has still not been negotiated. So many different people and organisations can be required to consent - the author of the original work, the studio, the distributor, the director, the producers, even some of the actors. So unless you want a disc with nothing more than Dolby trailers on it (and even there there could be problems), it will take some time to negotiate with all the parties and for all the different markets.

It may be significant that Hong Kong is the only place, as far as we know, that has a demo disc out. China has a rather 'different' view about copyright and IP than we are used to in the West
Perhaps it is unique to HK (China). Have to start checking ebay.com.hk and ebay.cn for Atmos content [mostly j/k]. One would think that with Dolby's status in "the industry", they would be able to legally arrange some publicly available Atmos demos with redistribution rights.


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Dolby, London weren't even aware of its existence. I told them that Dolby, Hong Kong had them, and that I'd seen pictures of them, and Dolby, London said they would 'look into it' and promised to send me one if they became available for the UK.
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post #5186 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
All in all I conclude therefore that while Bluray might be the last physical format, it will be with us for many years, maybe even decades, to come.
...@ our Salvation Army stores and all, just like cassette and VHS tapes. ...And LPs and CDs.
...For people with CRT tube TVs and $2 turntables and without hi-speed, Ethernet, we-fee, bluetooth, DLNA.

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post #5187 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:53 AM
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I have a slight problem. I have built the living room in my cabin around an 11.4 system (4 subs, 15"), with a Yamaha receiver (while giving my wife a kitchen that has no problem catering to 20 guests - give and take in action). I really love the effect from the prescence speakers. But I would like to expand to an 11.4.4 (well, technically 11.2.4, since there are only two subwoofer outs, I have hooked up two to each). From what I have seen Yamaha is the only company that supports the prescence speakers in the position I have them, and their 3040 only supports 7.1.4. I will put four ceiling speakers for Atmos (luckily I work slowly, so after two years the ceiling stil isn't up, we spent all summer in a cabin with plastic sheets under insulation to admire in the living room), two behind and two in front of the sitting position. But will I be able to use them, with the prescence speakers, any time soon? Are there any AV receivers/processors that will give me this? Moving the speakers isn't at all trivial, they are bolted to ceiling beams and other assorted places.

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post #5188 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:54 AM
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That sucks! For $2K, Denon should include the demo disc so that owners have at least a gnat's ass worth of Atmos content to try until Atmos BD's are available for purchase.
Like Panasonic did with FOX 'Avatar' 3D BD.
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post #5189 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 10:55 AM
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The picture of the demo disc in the Japanese "review" of the 5200 showed a blue recording surface, not an aluminized one. In other words, it was not mass-produced.
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Good catch, Sherlock So it was a pirated home-brew. Well, it was Hong Kong....
Well, just because it was produced in relatively small numbers on BD burners instead of in mass-quantity stamping plants does not necessarily mean it was pirated. Supposedly there were a couple of Atmos demos in Texas this past week hosted by a local A/V store which used that disc or a similar one. I doubt they'd publicize having used a pirated disc. Sorry, I'm not sure which thread talked about them. There are just too many Atmos threads!

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post #5190 of 16083 Old 08-23-2014, 11:01 AM
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Perhaps it is unique to HK (China). Have to start checking ebay.com.hk and ebay.cn for Atmos content [mostly j/k]. One would think that with Dolby's status in "the industry", they would be able to legally arrange some publicly available Atmos demos with redistribution rights.
I'm sure they can - it's just that it is a legal minefield and can take for ever. There are still movies not released on Bluray (True Lies for example) because of IP issues.

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Hope you get it even if it's handed to you "under the table".
So do I. They promised me one "if it is available". The fact that Dolby, London were unaware that it was available suggests to me that it isn't "official".
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