The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 181 - AVS Forum
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post #5401 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I am several thousand miles away, Marc. ...I, and everyone else I am sure, await your reports with bated breath...
Being 17 miles away, figured I'd take advantage of Marc's kind hospitality rather than wait for his report. The below text is copied from the Denon 4100/5200/7200 thread.


To add to Marc's post, there were several interesting things we were able to find out using only 2 speakers.

First, the wides get no signal from Dolby Surround Upmixing, but do get signals from Neo:X and all-channel stereo and even those reverby DSP modes (Rock Arena, Jazz Club, etc). Scott Wilkinson's write up of the Dolby demo already mentioned that the DSU does not use wides because they didn't want to smear the soundstage. The Dolby white paper said that DSU didn't use the speakers between the L/C/Rs because they didn't want to smear the soundstage. Seeing the same reason, I thought that there might have been some communication mixup, so I was holding out hope that wides were included in the upmixing ...to no avail. Shame, since I don't buy their smearing-the-soundstage excuse (in both cases).

The centre spread parameter in Dolby Surround Upmixing is not the gradual adjustment from fully extracted centre to complete phantom centre that we're used to in PLII Music mode. Instead, it is simply an on/off setting. When turned on, centre content is distributed equally across the L/C/R speakers (centre "spread", get it?).

We plugged the speakers into the height outputs and switched between DSU and Neo:X; the former seemed to extract more info to the height speakers than the latter. When we configured the heights as tops, Neo:X didn't output anything, nor did DSX.

While configured as tops, we went back and forth with the "using Dolby speakers" setting. Even though it was a pair of studio monitors pointing at us, the HTRF processing made them less easy to localize. Marc was almost hearing imaging behind him. When we configured them as regular height speakers, they imaged at their physical location. So even without Atmos-enabled upward-firing speakers, we could hear it was doing some sort of virtualizing. Roger said he heard a notch in the high frequencies. Thanx Sherlock, didn't know that's how it was being done.

Unfortunately, virtual heights only worked with Dolby Surround Upmixing, not with Neo:X and DSX. Too bad, because even though the virtual height speakers aren't exactly where DTS or Audyssey height speakers (or even Yamaha presence speakers) are intended to be placed, they're close enough that the function should have been compartmentalized from subsequent processing. Like bass management; if you have small speakers that are crossed over at 100 Hz, then it stays that way irrespective of subsequent processing. Likewise, if you have virtual heights instead of actual heights, then they should be treated like height speakers whether using DSU, Neo:X, DSX, Yamaha Cinema DSP, Auro3D, etc.

Finally, I must be spoiled by my last two decades of using Lex processors, because the menu structure in the Denon was unintuitive to me. You first have to pick Amp Assign, which includes settings like "Dolby Atmos". What does that even mean when it comes to assigning internal amps? The next step is to configure speakers based on the Amp Assign settings. I would have preferred it the other way 'round. Configure 7 or 9 or 11 or however many speakers you want to use. Then assign internal amps to however many speakers they will support. Whatever speakers (if any) are left over have to be powered by external amplification.
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post #5402 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
I was always under the impression that the front three are the most crucial and do most of the work is that correct
While I cannot speak to height channels one way or another in the context of Atmos or anything else (never heard, let alone used, heights) for 2 to 7 channel systems I think that's right. Ideally, the front three speakers should be identical speakers oriented identically and at the same height. When that is not practicable then one should try to get as close to the ideal situation as possible. The rest of 'em...basically, make sure they're placed right and aren't terrible performers.

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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Best surround sound experience comes from identical loudspeakers ALL AROUND. ...Front Left, Center, FR, SR, and SL.
I don't think that's particularly or at all important, actually. LCR, yes. The rest of 'em, not so much. At least on material for which fidelity is an actual issue, such as orchestral concerts recorded in multichannel. For movies, whatever. Don't know, don't care.

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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Once you've experienced surround with 100% identical speakers, you will then realize how important having identical speakers all around.
Except when you've done it, and realized that after spending an awful lot of money on four speakers to your sides or rear you're not even positive you could tell the new 20x more expensive surrounds from the old ones in a blind test, even though when you compare them as main speakers the spectral balance, image rendition, and dynamic reproduction of the new ones are all beyond question superior...

Furthermore, there's a strong case to be made that ambience speakers have different requirements from front-stage speakers, especially in a small room.* Dr. Toole touches on this idea in Sound Reproduction. Note that his discussion of surrounds never once refers to mains. Instead, he refers to problems unique to the surround channels in small rooms, such as localization at one surround speaker for listeners outside the main listening position, and makes some proposals that seem to have intuitive merit but are not widely adopted, such as use of line or CBT arrays for ambience channels.

I don't see how Atmos would change the equation there, though I'm very open to changing my mind if presented with a good argument.

*"Small room" used here as a term of art to refer to the kinds of spaces found in personal homes, as distinct from "large rooms" such as auditoria or concert halls that seat hundreds or thousands of people.
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post #5403 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 08:27 PM
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Having set up 5.1 SACD with identical tweeters and woofers for fronts, center and rears, it's really smooth and balanced.
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post #5404 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 08:29 PM
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OIC, yet another "blind test" guy.

My home theatre have 2 sets of speakers to make a point to my clients. One set 100% identical, another only the LCR are identical with slightly different model but from the same series of the same brand manufacturers. Funny enough that 100% of about 500 listeners (so far) always prefer the 100% identical speakers vs similarly sounding speakers. None of them knew which set I was playing and I only asked whether they choose set A or set B.

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post #5405 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 09:19 PM
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Thanks Sanjay and Marc for the reports. So it sounds like some of our earlier inferences (mostly based on the now infamous pg 287 chart) were correct:

- the Atmos elevation speakers cannot be used with Neo:X or DSX, only DSU
- wides don't make sound with DSU
- if you want to "share" a pair of height speakers between Atmos/DSU and legacy upmix like Neo:X, the first pair of elevated speakers must be designated Front Height

Definitely a bummer that you can't utilize the HTRF processing for the visual heights in other height modes, but then again I'm not surprised. Why would Dolby allow their proprietary design, a result of a lot of time and research, be used to enhance competitor products from DTS and Audyssey?
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post #5406 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Why would Dolby allow their proprietary design, a result of a lot of time and research, be used to enhance competitor products from DTS and Audyssey?
For the same reason PLIIz works with all codecs (from Dolby and its competitors). Otherwise, it leaves an opening for someone else to offer a truly agnostic version of the technology. If that happens, they don't just run the risk of someone offering an alternative, they run the risk of someone offering something better.

Imagine if Dolby had limited PLIIz to only extract height information from Dolby codecs (DD, DD+, TrueHD) and not work with competitor's codecs. Most BDs use a DTS codec, which would have left an opening for another company to offer a truly universal upmixer. But what if that other company offered one that could extract heights AND wides? Would Dolby want to leave themselves open to that?

IF it is Dolby that has limited their Elevation processing to only work with their upmixer, rather than it being a limitation in 1st gen products due to chipmakers/manufacturers, then I hope they seriously reconsider this restriction. What's the worst that will happen? More of their licensed speakers will be sold?

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post #5407 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 10:10 PM
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My home theatre have 2 sets of speakers to make a point to my clients. One set 100% identical, another only the LCR are identical with slightly different model but from the same series of the same brand manufacturers. Funny enough that 100% of about 500 listeners (so far) always prefer the 100% identical speakers vs similarly sounding speakers. None of them knew which set I was playing and I only asked whether they choose set A or set B.
I would love to have all of my speakers the same. However, my LCR's are about fifty pounds each and take up a fair chunk of real estate. How in the hell am I supposed to mount those to the ceiling for atmos? I think I may have to settle for bookshelf speakers that are in the same brand/family. If I were to have them all the same, in my space, the fronts would have to be much smaller and would probably sound much more anemic than the ones I am currently using. I agree that having them all the same would be ideal, I just don't see how I can do it with my setup and room.

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post #5408 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post
I would love to have all of my speakers the same. However, my LCR's are about fifty pounds each and take up a fair chunk of real estate. How in the hell am I supposed to mount those to the ceiling for atmos? I think I may have to settle for bookshelf speakers that are in the same brand/family. If I were to have them all the same, in my space, the fronts would have to be much smaller and would probably sound much more anemic than the ones I am currently using. I agree that having them all the same would be ideal, I just don't see how I can do it with my setup and room.
Yes, of course you would want to use the smaller family of speakers from the same brand for the surrounds as the fronts to maintain timbre matching. The low end can be sent to the subs.

One thing I would like to have in receivers and pre-amps would be surround subwoofer outputs like in Atmos theaters. That is an add-on function of the processor's bass management software.

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post #5409 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Once you've experienced surround with 100% identical speakers, you will then realize how important having identical speakers all around.
David, over at the Yamaha aventage thread you wrote:

Timbre Matching, even as a THX Certified Professional, I find it to be totally unnecessary as the matching is already done by YPAO EQ

Could explain that statement?
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post #5410 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Having set up 5.1 SACD with identical tweeters and woofers for fronts, center and rears, it's really smooth and balanced.
Right on!
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post #5411 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
OIC, yet another "blind test" guy.

My home theatre have 2 sets of speakers to make a point to my clients. One set 100% identical, another only the LCR are identical with slightly different model but from the same series of the same brand manufacturers. Funny enough that 100% of about 500 listeners (so far) always prefer the 100% identical speakers vs similarly sounding speakers. None of them knew which set I was playing and I only asked whether they choose set A or set B.
That is also what I experienced and many of my friends. ...And for both multichannel music and movies.

* Dr. Toole is good, very good.
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post #5412 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
You don't want to point the Tannoys, or any concentric driver or speaker with a round waveguide, directly at the listening position. Simple geometry: there's a cancellation notch in the treble that fills in completely a little off axis.
I'd like to know more about the geometry that causes this notch. There's no mention of that here.

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post #5413 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Thanks Sanjay and Marc for the reports. So it sounds like some of our earlier inferences (mostly based on the now infamous pg 287 chart) were correct:

- the Atmos elevation speakers cannot be used with Neo:X or DSX, only DSU
- wides don't make sound with DSU
- if you want to "share" a pair of height speakers between Atmos/DSU and legacy upmix like Neo:X, the first pair of elevated speakers must be designated Front Height

Definitely a bummer that you can't utilize the HTRF processing for the visual heights in other height modes, but then again I'm not surprised. Why would Dolby allow their proprietary design, a result of a lot of time and research, be used to enhance competitor products from DTS and Audyssey?
I guess it would be the same with Marantz? ...Of course it is.

* You think Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Onkyo/Integra, have a different topology (implementation) about Dolby Atmos working with their own proprietary Auto Room Calibration and EQ systems?
Like for Dolby Surround working with dts Neo:X and the presence channels (Yamaha).
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post #5414 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I’d love to take you up on that. Texas is one state I have never visited. Bjorn's really does sound like the real deal!
When I moved to San Antonio in 1980, Bjorn was already "at it" doing demos of high fidelity sound with projection video, playing surrounds through a time delay device. This was at least 2 years before Dolby Surround was born.
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post #5415 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
David, over at the Yamaha aventage thread you wrote:

Timbre Matching, even as a THX Certified Professional, I find it to be totally unnecessary as the matching is already done by YPAO EQ

Could explain that statement?
It says right there; YPAO EQ. ...Doesn't mean it's perfect; because it is not.
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post #5416 of 15895 Old 08-24-2014, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I don't think that's particularly or at all important, actually. LCR, yes. The rest of 'em, not so much. At least on material for which fidelity is an actual issue, such as orchestral concerts recorded in multichannel. For movies, whatever. Don't know, don't care.
Nothing is essentially important, but when you hear the difference between what is and what's not,
then it becomes obvious that what counts is what you prefer. ...And no matter what other prefer,
even Dr. Toole, or/and Dr. Olive.
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post #5417 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
It says right there; YPAO EQ. ...Doesn't mean it's perfect; because it is not.
I would love nothing more then to get timbre matched speakers to my existing ones but AFAIK they don't exist. I have been in contact both with the US and German representatives of Jamo.
What I have been told is that KEF's are rather neutral so difference wouldn't be too great between mine and the KEF's.
One other company I found was Preference (http://preference-audio.com). They have in ceiling speakers with a silk tweeter (my Jamos have a polyester one) in comparison to KEFs aluminium. I have been told that comparing tweeter material is the most important when it comes to timbre matching. Unfortunately so far I was not able to find any reviews or experience reports on the Preference units?
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post #5418 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 01:57 AM
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We really need a white paper from Dolby for the specifications on the ceiling speakers.

I sort of assume it will be close to the cinema requirements on most part.

From http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...ifications.pdf there are some clear guidelines.

Loudspeakers over Central Listening Area (CLA) should be aimed down
Loudspeakers front and behind CLA should be aimed at the edge of the CLA.

When CLA is 1 seat, or row, it should perhaps not be aimed directly at the ear position, but slightly before and behind ?

The same seems true for the angle they need from side towards the middle of the room. That is halfway between the middle of the room and the axis front rear they are installed on.
Same logic, not directly at the ears of the person in the optimal position, but just next to it.



Come on Dolby, share this information.

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post #5419 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
I would love nothing more then to get timbre matched speakers to my existing ones but AFAIK they don't exist. I have been in contact both with the US and German representatives of Jamo.
What I have been told is that KEF's are rather neutral so difference wouldn't be too great between mine and the KEF's.
One other company I found was Preference (http://preference-audio.com). They have in ceiling speakers with a silk tweeter (my Jamos have a polyester one) in comparison to KEFs aluminium. I have been told that comparing tweeter material is the most important when it comes to timbre matching. Unfortunately so far I was not able to find any reviews or experience reports on the Preference units?
In the bigger picture diaphragm material is meaningless if distortion of drivers is similarly low. Timbre is dictated by driver dispersion characteristics and room interaction.

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post #5420 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 04:27 AM
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Loudspeakers over Central Listening Area (CLA) should be aimed down
Loudspeakers front and behind CLA should be aimed at the edge of the CLA. .
Esoecially with in ceiling f that will be hard to achieve as they are flat with the ceiling and it will be hard to aim! There are some models with pointaboe tweeters but these don't follow Dolby's "Wide Dispersion" requirement. I understood that if you have a wide dispersion speaker (like KEF uni-q) within the correct angle no aiming should be done!
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post #5421 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 05:48 AM
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No, Keith, as I understand it--and JD can correct me if I have misunderstood--he is instructing us that the AVR will not engage Dolby Atmos processing if you have configured your height speakers as FH/RH, which was the two-pair configuration I had envisioned for my living room. As I now understand it, you can use FH or RH for one of the two pairs but not both and not individually, only in combination with one of the Atmos-specific speakers.

That is why I stated that this was news to me.
JD will no doubt step in, but I don't think you have got it right. Batpig's chart showed clearly that the FH+RH combination was an Atmos combination. I should have saved the post but search should find it for you.

@batpig: would you post the chart from the manual again please (or PM it to me). It's the one where you had highlighted in yellow various combinations IIRC. Thanks buddy.
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post #5422 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by UKTexan View Post
westmd, I contacted David Kroll who is the Global product manager for KEF in ceiling speakers as I too am considering the THX speaker. David gave me three options which would all match well with the KEF R300's I am looking at:


Depending on the room size / and what main speakers, the Ci160QR, Ci200QR, or the Ci200RR-THX.

The Ci200QR offer the best output/LF response for reasonable cost. The Ci200RR-THX are an exceptional speaker, and can even be used as LCR in a high performance system.


Does not answer your timbre match question but thought I would share the information received.
If you are using XT32, timbre matching isn’t really an issue.
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post #5423 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
JD will no doubt step in, but I don't think you have got it right. Batpig's chart showed clearly that the FH+RH combination was an Atmos combination. I should have saved the post but search should find it for you.

@batpig: would you post the chart from the manual again please (or PM it to me). It's the one where you had highlighted in yellow various combinations IIRC. Thanks buddy.

Currently the only available X5200W manual is the one on the Denon UK website in which you can easily download yourself.

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/downloads/...ionmanual.aspx
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post #5424 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
I actually took my family across the border to experience Atmos @ the movies, but it was only a 2h drive into Holland... Well worth it.
Which movie did you see?

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BTW, there aren't any real borders in the EU anymore... except for the UK, as you know! You Brits always have to be special!
It's not that - we just like to make life difficult for the French LOL.

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post #5425 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Sorry for the confusion, although not ideal, FH+RH can indeed be used as the Atmos "height" speakers.
Thanks JD. Some confusion seems to arise from the nomenclature for the overhead speakers. Some call them 'overhead', others 'height', others 'top', others 'ceiling' and so on. So when referring to 'heights' some people mean the legacy heights like those for PLIIz and others mean 'tops' like the new Top Front etc. I guess it will settle into some sort of convention eventually. Maybe we should call traditional front and rear heights 'legacy heights' and all the others 'ceiling'?
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post #5426 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:14 AM
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When you turn on the 4520... If there is no load would it be running much cooler to since the amps are idle? I am asking this to see if a dedicated AVP would be more efficient AC wise and temperature wise than a AVR.
Probably not. It's the HDMI board that seems to generate most of the heat.
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post #5427 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:26 AM
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Owner's manuals are up on Pioneer US site for the AJ Dolby speakers:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...rs/SP-EBS73-LR

Steve
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post #5428 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:39 AM
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Thanks for the updates!

I agree that Denon is not the best at making intuitive menu structures... or manuals for that matter.
Which is why we have batpig of course
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post #5429 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:42 AM
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Being 17 miles away, figured I'd take advantage of Marc's kind hospitality rather than wait for his report. The below text is copied from the Denon 4100/5200/7200 thread.
Great post, Sanjay. Thanks. I do envy you guys who all live so close to each other that you can have these GTGs.
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post #5430 of 15895 Old 08-25-2014, 06:46 AM
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Great post, Sanjay. Thanks. I do envy you guys who all live so close to each other that you can have these GTGs.
Really no one in your area?

Under construction: the Larch theater
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