The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 190 - AVS Forum
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post #5671 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I suspect the reason is that dipoles aren't really needed anyway, now we have proper discrete multichannel content.
Dipole surrounds were pushed by Tom Holman for his home THX program, because those types of speakers most closely mimicked the long arrays of surround speakers in commercial cinemas (the reference point for home THX). When soundtracks switched from a mono surround channel (Dolby Stereo) to 2 surround channels (discrete 5.1), movie theatres didn't change their speaker layouts.

At home, if you bought into the THX goal of replicating the movie theatre experience (as much as logistically possible), then you continued to use dipoles because they continued to best mimic long arrays of surround speakers. Just because consumers got discrete multi-channel content doesn't mean dipoles suddenly stopped serving the purpose they were originally meant for.

So if anyone has a 5.1 set-up that uses dipole surrounds, and likes how it sounds, then I think they should continue to keep a set-up they enjoy even when adding 2 or 4 speakers overhead.

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post #5672 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Only monopoles in theatres.
That is what I also saw in all the Theaters that I attended in my lifetime.

* I hope they release 'Ratatouille' here in North America, in 3D, 4K, and Dolby Atmos.
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post #5673 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 05:57 PM
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Forgive me if this has been asked before- what's 'better' with a 9 channel amp? 5.1.4 or 7.1.2? I lean towards 7.1.2 since there's already 7.1 source material out there.

Looking at a Marantz 7009. Trying to figure out how many surrounds/ceiling speakers to get.
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post #5674 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I'm doing a 2 row setup, and to best emulate the performance of a real Atmos cinema, the folks in the back row definitely get a different aural perspective! IOW, no, both rows do not fall withing the angle guidelines. Just make sure the MLP does.
I was afraid you would say that This sort of thing drives my OCD crazy.

Another question for you guys. Part of the recommended speaker placements are outside the range that a speaker with a 90 degree dispersion will cover. Has anything been mentioned about aiming the speakers to compensate?

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post #5675 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
Forgive me if this has been asked before- what's 'better' with a 9 channel amp? 5.1.4 or 7.1.2? I lean towards 7.1.2 since there's already 7.1 source material out there.

Looking at a Marantz 7009. Trying to figure out how many surrounds/ceiling speakers to get.
7.1.4 ... Add a stereo amp...for the back surrounds.
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post #5676 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
7.1.4 ... Add a stereo amp...for the back surrounds.

I'm still hoping some CEM will allow 7.1.4 with the Main Layer 7.1 composed of 5.1 Standard + 2x Front Wides...!
_

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post #5677 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
Forgive me if this has been asked before- what's 'better' with a 9 channel amp? 5.1.4 or 7.1.2? I lean towards 7.1.2 since there's already 7.1 source material out there.

Looking at a Marantz 7009. Trying to figure out how many surrounds/ceiling speakers to get.
7.1.4

That's the maximum the 7009 can render for Atmos. Get a cheap 2 channel amp for the extra speakers, as NorthSky mentioned.

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post #5678 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 07:28 PM
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I can wire for an eventual 7.2.4 but the budget is tapped out right now.
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post #5679 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
I'm still hoping some CEM will allow 7.1.4 with the Main Layer 7.1 composed of 5.1 Standard + 2x Front Wides...!
_
I'm not sure the current Denon 5200 can't already do that. In theory it should be possible. Unfortunately that won't work with Dolby Surround up mixer (which doesn't output to wides as implemented) but Atmos content should render.

Of course, the lack of output for DSU means it might be more practical to do a "traditional" 7.1.4 and just move the Surround speakers in front of the MLP and space the Surr Back wider as in this ITU layout:



That layout is practically close enough to what you want, and all 11 speakers will be hot with DSU and native Atmos.
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post #5680 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 08:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
I can wire for an eventual 7.2.4 but the budget is tapped out right now.
I would go 5.1.4 ...instead of 7.1.2 ...put your side surrounds @ 110-120° or so.
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post #5681 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I would go 5.1.4 ...instead of 7.1.2 ...put your side surrounds @ 110-120° or so.
It all depends on the number of seats and rows in your theater. For me two seats one row I will do 7.2.2
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post #5682 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 09:01 PM
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Paraphrasing from my post in the Atlantic Technology Owners thread:

Saw a prototype of these height modules at CES back in January, where they looked like an extension to one of Atlantic's THX speakers. Since then, the look has been changed to make it more of a universal height module. Though there wasn't much info about these "virtual height" speakers at CES (no mention of Atmos), Atlantic has apparently been quietly working with Dolby for a couple of years (!) on these.

In fact, when Scott Wilkinson did his podcast speaker designer Andrew Jones from Pioneer about their upcoming Atmos-enabled speakers, Jones mentioned that he was skeptical until he heard the CEDIA 2013 Atmos demo, which impressed him enough to pursue his own version. What he heard at that 2013 demo was an early prototype of these height modules.

The ones I saw at CES in January had a small single driver pointing up. Looks like that's been changed to a larger coax in order to have better bass response and a wider dispersion (larger ceiling spot) than other manufacturers have. First time I've seen one of the Atmos speaker licensees promote the used of height modules NOT on top of a speaker.


http://www.atlantictechnology.com/fi...2614-2-lrz.pdf
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post #5683 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I was afraid you would say that This sort of thing drives my OCD crazy.
What do you do for current 5.1/7.1? There's only one MLP.

Quote:
Another question for you guys. Part of the recommended speaker placements are outside the range that a speaker with a 90 degree dispersion will cover. Has anything been mentioned about aiming the speakers to compensate?
Could you be more specific? Which positions fall out?

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post #5684 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I was afraid you would say that This sort of thing drives my OCD crazy.
What do you do for current 5.1/7.1? There's only one MLP.

Quote:
Another question for you guys. Part of the recommended speaker placements are outside the range that a speaker with a 90 degree dispersion will cover. Has anything been mentioned about aiming the speakers to compensate?
Could you be more specific? Which positions fall out?

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post #5685 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 09:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
It all depends on the number of seats and rows in your theater. For me two seats one row I will do 7.2.2
Yeah, it all depends...how many feet behind the couch to the back wall.

* But! It is very easy to figure his particular situation and room; and because of that 5.1.4 would be much more beneficial to him...in my very humble and smart opinion.

** Four overheads Dolby Atmos speakers are better than only two of them plus two back surround speakers.
I truly think. /// Why? Because of object rendition in a 3D space. ...Much more spatial, much more immersing in both horizontal (five speakers) and vertical (four speakers) planes; plus subwoofer(s).
5.1.4 is a perfect spatial balance; much more than 7.1.2 - and even for only one or three listeners (main listener surrounded by his two girlfriends, one on each side of his couch).

*** Yes, four overhead Dolby Atmos "sky satellites" should 'elevate' a listener or three much more than two surround back speakers (mostly useless in most small rooms), and only two overhead ones (only overhead side panning, no front to back overhead panning).

**** The two Side surrounds like I said; @ 110-120° behind the "love triangle" (MLP).
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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-27-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Typo (2, not 4) & some adding up...
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post #5686 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 09:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
...

The ones I saw at CES in January had a small single driver pointing up. Looks like that's been changed to a larger coax in order to have better bass response and a wider dispersion (larger ceiling spot) than other manufacturers have. First time I've seen one of the Atmos speaker licensees promote the used of height modules NOT on top of a speaker.


http://www.atlantictechnology.com/fi...2614-2-lrz.pdf
Cute, I really like them...they are going to make life much easier for a whole bunch more people.
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post #5687 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
The only Atmos speakers which can be utilized would be the enabled modules on top of my 2 floor standing speakers or 2 new Atmos speakers to replace my existing 2 speakers.We can't break thru our ceiling or walls to run additional atmos speakers.My concern is if we just utilize the 2 front Atmos speakers , would reflecting off a slanted ceiling gives us ANY degree of atmos immersive sound??
2 Atmos speakers are obviously not as good as 4 since so much can happen inside the plane formed by 4 speakers while 2 speakers only form a line. But using 2 Atmos speakers will be superior to having no Atmos speakers at all..

I don't recall if you indicated the way the ceiling slopes? Suppose it's from the sides and upwards: if you reverse the wiring from the top Atmos modules (L > < R) then the one on the right (wired as left) will reflect to your left side.. and vice versa.
Suppose the slope is parallel to the front wall? Even better. Just wire the top modules as intended (L = L and R = R) and they will sound as they are Top Middle...
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post #5688 of 12678 Old 08-27-2014, 11:54 PM
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But Dolby Atmos is not a 5.1-channel setup; it's a new "elevated" world.
...Dipole, bipole, tripole, omnipole, ...they all going the way of the dodo now.

It is not 1982 no more, it is 2014. ...The year of precise objects in space; the spatial surround sound, the precise 3D rendition.
...A new harmony between the floor channels and overhead channels. ...If you are using dipole or bipole or tripole on your side and/or rear walls, they'll change the game with the new overhead Dolby Atmos speakers. ...And perhaps not to the ideal match; overall effective 3D performance.

I sincerely believe that; I am going to get rid of all my speakers that are dipole, bipole, tripole and omnipole types in favor of monopole ones all around. Dolby Atmos should perform better that way, and the professional recording studios as well with their new Dolby Atmos mixing console, and their monopole speakers everywhere around and above.

Adapt, or experience inferior performance, really/radically, I think very much so. ...Time to reorganize our rooms in favor of the new King in town; Dolby "elevated" Atmos.
Now this whole discussion makes me start to think! I have the following setup for Atmos planned. My room is roughly 19 feet long, 14 feet wide and 7.2 feet high. MLP is 14 feet away from front. The MLP is a compromise because even though I only have 26 degrees to my keft and right speaker , to achieve required 30 degrees I would move too far to the screen! Side surrounds will be 6.5 feet away from back wall so at 62 degrees and back surrounds at 102 degrees. All speakers will be the same height at ear level.
Now currenly I do have side dipoles. Woul you suggest to stick with them or try monopoles?
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post #5689 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 01:40 AM
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atmos speakers with sloping ceiling

Thank you for your advice.My ceiling slope would be parallel to front upward angulated Atmos speakers.The apex of our sloped ceiling is a flattened area that has a fan/light combo in the center of our room.Our viewing area is under the flattened ceiling area.Is it possible that the sound reflection would bounce off the angulated ceiling onto our seated area? Would this give us at least some of the Atmos immersive sound?.I am sure that I am not alone with this ceiling dilemma and that others could benefit from this forums advice and expertise.The ultimate question is to invest or not with new Atmos equipment and experience at least some immersive sound.Any comments would be appreciated,THX
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post #5690 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Thank you for your advice.My ceiling slope would be parallel to front upward angulated Atmos speakers.The apex of our sloped ceiling is a flattened area that has a fan/light combo in the center of our room.Our viewing area is under the flattened ceiling area.Is it possible that the sound reflection would bounce off the angulated ceiling onto our seated area? Would this give us at least some of the Atmos immersive sound?.I am sure that I am not alone with this ceiling dilemma and that others could benefit from this forums advice and expertise.The ultimate question is to invest or not with new Atmos equipment and experience at least some immersive sound.Any comments would be appreciated,THX
There will definitely be an enhanced immersiveness. I would advise to use the separate add-on modules so that some angling can be done if needed.
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post #5691 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Has anyone worked on a two row HT layout yet? For my room it looks like getting a good compromise for both rows might be a little tough. Particularly with the top center speakers. That may be a good reason to go with a 7.x.4 layout instead of trying to get those last two top speakers in there.

EDIT: Scratch that. Even with just four tops I can't get the overheads to fall within range for both rows. Hmmmm…..

Sorry if this has been beat to death already, but I can't keep up with this thread. You guys are machines!
Both the demos I went to had two rows of seats. For the first demo I sat in the front row and for the second in the back row. With Atmos speakers I couldn’t really say there was much difference for either row. With ceiling speakers, I happened to be sitting directly underneath the top rear speaker, but the effect was still very good, and this is probably the worst seat in the room.

If I had two rows, I'd decide which was the primary row and then optimize for that row. The other row will perhaps sound less good, but still very good and definitely better than what we have currently.

In some ways, two row HTs have always had to compromise similarly, but as those with two-row cinemas will testify, the results can be very good indeed.
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post #5692 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Dipole surrounds were pushed by Tom Holman for his home THX program, because those types of speakers most closely mimicked the long arrays of surround speakers in commercial cinemas (the reference point for home THX). When soundtracks switched from a mono surround channel (Dolby Stereo) to 2 surround channels (discrete 5.1), movie theatres didn't change their speaker layouts.

At home, if you bought into the THX goal of replicating the movie theatre experience (as much as logistically possible), then you continued to use dipoles because they continued to best mimic long arrays of surround speakers. Just because consumers got discrete multi-channel content doesn't mean dipoles suddenly stopped serving the purpose they were originally meant for.
No - it means that the original purpose for which they were designed no longer exists.

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So if anyone has a 5.1 set-up that uses dipole surrounds, and likes how it sounds, then I think they should continue to keep a set-up they enjoy even when adding 2 or 4 speakers overhead.
No disagreement with that.
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post #5693 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
What do you do for current 5.1/7.1? There's only one MLP.

Could you be more specific? Which positions fall out?
The top front, for example, are shown to go between 30 and 55 degrees up. Putting the speaker between 30 and 44 degrees pointing down would put the listener outside the 90 degree pattern of the overhead (assuming 45 degrees in each direction), correct? The back overheads have the same issue.

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Originally Posted by wse View Post
It all depends on the number of seats and rows in your theater. For me two seats one row I will do 7.2.2
Two rows of four. Back row will be pretty close to the rear wall. I've used the Axiom 'quadripolar' surrounds in the past and been very happy with them. Trying to decide if I will use those as surrounds again. I will be using their new ceiling speakers for the tops.

I will wire for 7.2.4. I guess it really doesn't matter where I start, but 5.2.4 makes sense.
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post #5695 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
The top front, for example, are shown to go between 30 and 55 degrees up. Putting the speaker between 30 and 44 degrees pointing down would put the listener outside the 90 degree pattern of the overhead (assuming 45 degrees in each direction), correct? The back overheads have the same issue.
So why not just aim them towards the listening area?
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post #5696 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So why not just aim them towards the listening area?
That was my original question I haven't seen anything mentioned in any of the ATMOS information about aiming the speakers. I was wondering if I'd missed something.

Quote:
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……...Has anything been mentioned about aiming the speakers to compensate?

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post #5697 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
That was my original question I haven't seen anything mentioned in any of the ATMOS information about aiming the speakers. I was wondering if I'd missed something.
Ah, sorry, I missed that. Although the overhead speakers in the demos have all been aimed straight down, I’d have thought that aiming the speakers was also permitted. I guess your concern is that if you aim them towards the MLP then you might be able to localize them. I share that concern and am intending to try them both pointed down and pointed towards the MLP. In the absence of any detailed info at this time from Dolby (and this may be covered in the much-awaited custom installer guidelines coming soon), I think experimentation is the only way to go.
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post #5698 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Paraphrasing from my post in the Atlantic Technology Owners thread:

Saw a prototype of these height modules at CES back in January, where they looked like an extension to one of Atlantic's THX speakers. Since then, the look has been changed to make it more of a universal height module. Though there wasn't much info about these "virtual height" speakers at CES (no mention of Atmos), Atlantic has apparently been quietly working with Dolby for a couple of years (!) on these.

In fact, when Scott Wilkinson did his podcast speaker designer Andrew Jones from Pioneer about their upcoming Atmos-enabled speakers, Jones mentioned that he was skeptical until he heard the CEDIA 2013 Atmos demo, which impressed him enough to pursue his own version. What he heard at that 2013 demo was an early prototype of these height modules.

The ones I saw at CES in January had a small single driver pointing up. Looks like that's been changed to a larger coax in order to have better bass response and a wider dispersion (larger ceiling spot) than other manufacturers have. First time I've seen one of the Atmos speaker licensees promote the used of height modules NOT on top of a speaker.


http://www.atlantictechnology.com/fi...2614-2-lrz.pdf
It would be nice to be able to wall mount something like that, for people with mains behind a screen or wall. Maybe those people are expected to ceiling mount.

For example, the Atmos speakers could go on top of front-wides and backs.
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post #5699 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It would be nice to be able to wall mount something like that, for people with mains behind a screen or wall. Maybe those people are expected to ceiling mount.

For example, the Atmos speakers could go on top of front-wides and backs.
Bear in mind that they need to be within 3 feet of their associated speaker, according to the Dolby white paper.
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post #5700 of 12678 Old 08-28-2014, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Bear in mind that they need to be within 3 feet of their associated speaker, according to the Dolby white paper.
Any idea why?
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