The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 197 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5881 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by harrybnbad View Post
Can someone explain to me what di/bi-pole speakers are.

And would any recomend that I get rid of my klispch rs-62. I currently have them mounted rear side surrounds. I do need to lower them. Somehow. Very odd shaped room. I am considering either speaker stands, or even up-side down mounts hanging from the ceiling.
Dipole speakers have two speaker arrays that fire out-of-phase. This creates a null zone of sorts and serves to make the soundfield emanated from the speaker sound more diffuse.

Bipole speakers have two speakers arrays that fire in-phase. The resultant sound field is less diffuse than what one would experience from a dipole speaker, but it's more diffuse than what you get from a monopole. In essence, bipoles are a compromise between dipoles and monopoles.

IMHO Klipsch surround speakers do a good job of projecting a diffuse sound field while also being able to localize specific sounds when called for. I do NOT plan to replace my RS-62II surrounds any time soon, and I'm in the process of adding ceiling speakers for Atmos.
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post #5882 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
In my search for the perfect in-ceiling speaker I contacted David Kroll who is the global product manager for KEFs custom installation series. (THX to NorthSky for getting me into contact).
I read every single post in this thread, every single paragraph, every single word; could you please refresh my memory; thank you very much.
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post #5883 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:31 PM
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dolby atmos and slanted ceiling and rear surrounds

I have a 7.1 system in our family room with slanted ceilings conjoined by a center flat ceiling.My rear surrounds are at the rear areas of this slanted ceiling(about 8 ft off the floor).Is it possible to use these rear surrounds (since they are in the slanted ceiling ) as dolby Atmos speakers?.I will use the Dolby Atmos enabled modules on top of my front 2.5 Nht fronts.Technically, I would have reflective sound bouncing off my front slanted ceiling(from my enabled modules) and downward Atmos sound form my rear surrounds.By channeling Dolby Atmos to replace from rear surrounds,what will be the consequences to my surround system?( I can't add any more in ceiling or in wall speakers) Will this create a sound field MESS????.Need your advice and expertise,THX
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post #5884 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
Does anyone have a guess as to when I might find a Denon x5200w for about $1500?
I currently have a Denon 4311 which was $2000 when it came out, but I purchased it open-box (it was a return) for $1500 from OneCall (which is a Denon authorized retailer).
I guess I have to wait for someone else to buy one and return it and then get lucky to grab it at that time? Maybe a couple months?
Just wait after CEDIA, less than two weeks. ...Then your wish will come true.
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post #5885 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
There is no reason for DTS-UHD to have to conform to the Auro-3D channel layout. Early demos in Hollywood of MDA-based mixes have taken place in cinemas with Auro-3D installations, it's true, and Auro Technologies, Barco and DTS are working together on MDA implementation in cinemas, but the MDA format is fairly agnostic in terms of speaker placement, and presumably DTS-UHD will be the same. I don't believe DTS has yet published any recommendations on speaker layouts for DTS-UHD.

Auro-3D does not have discrete object panning, it's true; but it does not use fancy matrix de-correlation. It is channel-based, but with a lot of research into the utility of height channels (not overhead) for creating more believable sound reproduction. The VOG in Auro is needed for true flyover effects, but is far less important than the height channels, and in a small room the VOG can be foregone altogether without much loss of impact. The height channels are the key for Auro-3D.

And the system is mixed discretely, and played back discretely. This is done by using the least significant bits in the 24 bit files in a DCP or on a Blu Ray. It's an encode/decode algorithm, not a matrix.
Valuable info; thank you sir.
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post #5886 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I read every single post in this thread, every single paragraph, every single word; could you please refresh my memory; thank you very much.
I believe he got David Kroll's contact info from UKTexan based on this post: The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

avsforum Members Atmos & Auro Configuration Spreadsheet

How to Create a Dolby Atmos Demo Disc (post #15199)

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post #5887 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:49 PM
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http://www.davidgriesinger.com/channels.pdf

Very good paper to read. ...Right on.
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post #5888 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
Makes sense to me. I wonder who I can contact at Dolby to double check?
www.dolby.com/us/en/index.html ---> Scroll down @ the bottom (Contact Us)
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post #5889 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 12:56 PM
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I was going to install my on-ceiling overhead speakers (top front & top rear) this weekend, but it sounds like I should wait for more placement info to be released?
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post #5890 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
I was going to install my on-ceiling overhead speakers (top front & top rear) this weekend, but it sounds like I should wait for more placement info to be released?
Not much longer at all. I would hold off.

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post #5891 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
I believe he got David Kroll's contact info from UKTexan based on this post:
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
Amazing find!

* Because I thought about it, and my memory is usually good, and one mention I made about KEF speakers in this thread (I think it was in this thread) was on the LS50 ... as the speaker you can put all around in a 7.1.4 Atmos setup (eleven of them, even four on the ceiling). ...That should sound awesome in a Dolby Atmos room theater setup from say 19' by 14' by 10' (D x W x H), plus two excellent quality subwoofers. ...Say from REL for example (one of their two top-of-the-line series - Gibraltar, or Serie S).

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-30-2014 at 01:39 PM.
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post #5892 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 01:21 PM
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Thanks so much everyone. This forum has been very helpful over all these months. I'll hold off a little bit more.

In the mean time I'll be prepping the room in other ways including upgrading to two SVS PC12-NSDs and installing $1000 of acoustic treatments from GIK.
Sheesh, this is going to end up being a $5000 upgrade by the end.

I just came here to read about atmos and now all of a sudden I've spent all this money... This always happens when I visit the avsforums... I'm gonna have to take another break from here after this ~
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post #5893 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
Thanks so much everyone. This forum has been very helpful over all these months. I'll hold off a little bit more.

In the mean time I'll be prepping the room in other ways including upgrading to two SVS PC12-NSDs and installing $1000 of acoustic treatments from GIK.
Sheesh, this is going to end up being a $5000 upgrade by the end.

I just came here to read about atmos and now all of a sudden I've spent all this money... This always happens when I visit the avsforums... I'm gonna have to take another break from here after this ~
I doubt that.
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post #5894 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoshFrosh;27010546I just came here to read about atmos[B
I'm gonna have to take another break from here after this[/B] ~
I doubt that.
Yeah, you're right, I'm already thinking about the next thing... Prolly a >61" OLED UHDTV... And maybe an Oppo 4K player... And................
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post #5895 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 02:14 PM
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...And some more guidance on Dolby Atmos various room's setups. ...As we discover and read more papers about it.
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post #5896 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 02:43 PM
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Dolby Atmos demo


I would like to correct two mistakes I made in my review of home theater Dolby Atmos at Bjorn's of San Antonio, TX.
I mentioned they had another demo room which was developed in conjunction with Tom Holman and was a THX room.
The room was constructed with guidance directly from Tom Holman but in fact it is a TMH room, back in 1999 it was way ahead of its time:


Holman Conducts First Public Demo of "10.2" Surround Sound


By Barry Willis • Posted: Jul 11, 1999


In early July, Holman's new company, Los Angeles-based TMH Corporation, conducted its first public demonstration of 10.2 at an electronics store in San Antonio, Texas. Approximately 100 people heard the demo at Bjorn's Audio Video, an event deemed noteworthy enough to warrant a mention in the Wall Street Journal.



Link to the TMH room: http://www.bjorns.com/pages/ultimate-theater-room


As you can see from the above article they have had two notable world's firsts, TMH and Atmos.
The TMH room will be converted to a dedicated Dolby Atmos demo room as soon as the finer details are revealed at CEDIA.


The 2nd point I made regarding Dolby conducting an in store Dolby Atmos presentation/seminar.
The class will take place after CEDIA, not before as I mentioned previously; Bjorn's are hoping a Dolby representative will be available to present the information, if not it will be presented by in house personnel.


Thank you to Bjorn for the corrections, he called me personally after reading the review and was very appreciative especially after hearing the positive response from AVS members around the world.

Last edited by UKTexan; 08-30-2014 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Added link to TMH room
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post #5897 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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I need to get over there and see the place. I know several who've made purchases there and I've heard really good things about them. Too bad we don't have anything similar in Houston.
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post #5898 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
I believe he got David Kroll's contact info from UKTexan based on this post: The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
May I beg your forgivesness NorthSky and yours UKTexan for mixing you up. i will edit my initial pist!
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post #5899 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:16 PM
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I need to get over there and see the place. I know several who've made purchases there and I've heard really good things about them. Too bad we don't have anything similar in Houston.
I agree, I intend to visit again after they complete the conversion from 10.2 to Dolby Atmos.
You will find they are a great bunch of guys and gals.
Unfortunately I have a few months to wait before I can make my Atmos purchase but at least most of the finer details should be worked out by then.
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post #5900 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
May I beg your forgivesness NorthSky and yours UKTexan for mixing you up. i will edit my initial pist!

No forgiveness necessary.
I hope you find the best speaker solution for you, whether it be KEF or otherwise.
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post #5901 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:21 PM
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Onkyo to present Dolby Atmos at this years IFA in Berlin

For everybody here in Europe Onkyo announced a Dolby Atmos demonstration booth at this years IFA starting in 6 days!

Discover Dolby Atmos in our listening room!

Dolby Atmos goes far beyond surround sound to create a new level of realism for movie fans. When you watch a movie with Dolby Atmos, sound moves around the room to match what you see on the screen. Rain on a roof, airplanes taking off - you'll hear the sounds exactly where they would be in real life. The sound comes from all directions, including overhead, and moves dynamically around the listener in multidimensional space... it's unlike any other surround sound system you've heard before.
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post #5902 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
May I beg your forgivesness NorthSky and yours UKTexan for mixing you up. i will edit my initial pist!
No need to ask for forgiveness; you did not do anything wrong.

1. I cannot take credit for something that wasn't from me.
2. I'm very happy that kokishin found exactly the source, after I posted my query.

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post #5903 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Auro's single, mono Voice of God speaker is in the worst possible spot. Most sounds directly above or behind you are very hard to localize. Plus, current Auro doesn't have discrete object panning, just channels plus some fancy matrix de-correlation.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Exactly! When our human hearing hears the same sound in both ears, its automatic reflex is to localize it in front of us. As you said, a speaker along the listener's centre line, either directly above or directly behind, should be avoided in order to minimize the psychoacoustic problem of imaging reversals. Auro avoids this in commercial cinemas by playing back the mono VOG channel through a grid of 4 overhead speakers that are spread out.
What if the VOG speaker is not directly above our head, but forward? I'm sure that will help with the front stage height ambiance.
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post #5904 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
What if the VOG speaker is not directly above our head, but forward?
Can you use a small pair of speakers and spread them apart?
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I'm sure that will help with the front stage height ambiance.
The Auro3D format already has dedicated L/C/R height channels for that (those speakers should be elevated about 20-30 degrees above your L/C/R speakers).

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post #5905 of 18446 Old 08-30-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Can you use a small pair of speakers and spread them apart?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
What if the VOG speaker is not directly above our head, but forward?

There appear to be 6 Voice Of God speakers arranged in three left|right pairs used in the system described in this interesting 1/9/2014 article in Residential Systems (link), "HomeTronics Designs First Home Theater for Voice of God Audio System", which includes some details of a "28.12" (speakers) high-end home setup for Auro-3D (and presumably with relevance to other '3D audio' formats). The included 'Side Elevation' drawing (link) lets us infer some considerations which may have influenced speaker placement decisions:


  • All front and surround middle layer speakers lie in one flat plane tilted to accommodate the pitch of the stadium style seating.
  • Front height layer speakers are placed near the top of the display.
  • Side and rear surround height layer speakers all lie in one horizontal plane somewhat below the ceiling, and are tilted downward.
  • The 6 VOG speakers are centered approx half way between the front and rear walls.
  • You can never have too many sub woofers!


It would be nice to find out just how well the system's 6 VOG speaker setup worked out for the owner!
_
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post #5906 of 18446 Old 08-31-2014, 12:53 AM
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Wanted to share a conversation I had with Chris K from Audyssey on the Facebook Audyssey Tech Talk page, about changes to MultEQ to support the Atmos-enabled speakers (midly edited to remove extraneous banter but all the details are there):

Chris Kyriakakis The changes include a custom Dolby-required target curve for the up-firing Atmos speakers. It’s based on HRTF cues that give the impression of virtual height. So MultEQ will calibrate those speakers to the Dolby target curve.

The distance to the up-firing speakers is a bit tricky because the lower frequencies coming from them are omnidirectional. Denon assumes a standard 8’ ceiling height. If your ceiling is higher than that then just add 1 ms per added ceiling height foot.

Batpig Interesting Chris thanks for the response. Most of us had assumed that MultEQ would calibrate to its standard target curve and then the HRTF cues would be layered on top.

Since one could obviously use these speakers without Audyssey EQ engaged, it seems like there must also be some HTRF type DSP happening independent of what Audyssey is doing as well. Do you know if when the end user engages Audyssey EQ will this replace, or be additive with, the Dolby DSP?

Chris Kyriakakis There is no added DSP. It's just a target curve specified by Dolby that is applied, as you said, after MultEQ calibrates to the standard curve

Batpig Roger that. So either way (whether or not you have MultEQ engaged) the additional Dolby specified HTRF cue are layered on.

And a follow up on the distance issue. Am I correct in interpreting your comment to mean that MultEQ will measure the distance/delay and then the processor adds X to the measured delay, with X being based on an assumption of 8' ceilings?

Chris Kyriakakis Yes, that's right (for both statements)

Batpig Great, final question (for now!). Just to be clear -- when you mentioned adding "1 ms per added ceiling height foot" are you proposing that the end user do this manually after calibration? Because the processor only adds X assuming 8 ft, but the higher ceilings require more than X additional delay? So if I have 10ft ceilings, after completing MultEQ calibration I should manually go into the speaker settings and add 2ft to the distance for any Dolby enabled speakers?

Chris Kyriakakis Yes if the ceiling is higher than 8'

Batpig Thanks!

Chris Kyriakakis And one more thing: The importance of this delay is highly overrated. Being off by 1-2 ms is not going to make any difference whatsoever. The information from these speakers is ambient and not used for imaging.

Batpig Understood, just wanted to confirm exactly what you meant. Thanks again!

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post #5907 of 18446 Old 08-31-2014, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Chris Kyriakakis The changes include a custom Dolby-required target curve for the up-firing Atmos speakers. It’s based on HRTF cues that give the impression of virtual height. So MultEQ will calibrate those speakers to the Dolby target curve. The distance to the up-firing speakers is a bit tricky because the lower frequencies coming from them are omnidirectional. Denon assumes a standard 8’ ceiling height. If your ceiling is higher than that then just add 1 ms per added ceiling height foot.

ONE extra foot of ceiling height results in a TWO foot longer travel distance from speaker to MLP. The speed of sound is (approx) 1,125 ft/s, so the adjustment seems like it should be 2 ms per additional foot of ceiling height...?!




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Chris Kyriakakis And one more thing: The importance of this delay is highly overrated. Being off by 1-2 ms is not going to make any difference whatsoever. The information from these speakers is ambient and not used for imaging.

Which makes me wonder just how little perceived difference we might be able to find between Atmos 5.1.4 and 9.1 Auro-3D reproduction of the same audio content...?
_

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post #5908 of 18446 Old 08-31-2014, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
ONE extra foot of ceiling height results in a TWO foot longer travel distance from speaker to MLP. The speed of sound is (approx) 1,125 ft/s, so the adjustment seems like it should be 2 ms per additional foot of ceiling height...?!
♦ Not only that, but if your front towers are three feet tall, or four feet tall...

Quote:
Which makes me wonder just how little perceived difference we might be able to find between Atmos 5.1.4 and 9.1 Auro-3D reproduction of the same audio content...?
_
♦ Objects in space are always ambient; only when they hit you directly on the back of your head or straight @ your face that they become distinct and impactful...reckless.

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post #5909 of 18446 Old 08-31-2014, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Can you use a small pair of speakers and spread them apart? The Auro3D format already has dedicated L/C/R height channels for that (those speakers should be elevated about 20-30 degrees above your L/C/R speakers).
I remember a video interview in which auro-3D inventor Wilfried van Baelen advices not to go below 25 or above 35 degrees for the middle layer, with 30 degrees being the optimum. This was also shown on the auro-3d website, but here it was later changed to 40 degrees. I have looked for an explanation but have not found any information explaining the rationale for this change, and whether this is a new optimum, or rather an extension of the tolerable range. In the latter case, it may be a commercial driven choice to enable better integration with ATMOS speaker lay-outs. Just a wild guess...
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post #5910 of 18446 Old 08-31-2014, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
ONE extra foot of ceiling height results in a TWO foot longer travel distance from speaker to MLP. The speed of sound is (approx) 1,125 ft/s, so the adjustment seems like it should be 2 ms per additional foot of ceiling height...?!
Actually it's a bit less. I'd go for about 1.5ms.
You can calculate the exact value for your setup with this calculator.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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