The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 199 - AVS Forum
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post #5941 of 14767 Old 08-31-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Let me rephrase, i'm asking if Dolby has provided the complete package of info to the manufacturers and the manufacturers have decided what is included in 1st generation product and what they will implement in 2nd generation.

Or, does Dolby continue to develop home Atmos and provide more intel to the manufacturers meaning what we will see in future generation product is dependent on what intel Dolby provides to the manufacturers.

All the data for Atmos has been released to manufacturers and media distributors, as far as I know. It is now up to them as to which features and how many speaker/sub outputs they will include in what models as long as what they do include meets specs. Dolby has no interest in updating Atmos at this time. The R&D is finished and they'll probably go on to something else to stay frosty.

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post #5942 of 14767 Old 08-31-2014, 05:53 PM
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My apologies in advance if I'm posting this in the wrong thread but will any of the first iterations of Dolby Atmos receivers and pre/pros be able to process more than 4 over head speakers in a 7.2.x setup?
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post #5943 of 14767 Old 08-31-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mre_man View Post
My apologies in advance if I'm posting this in the wrong thread but will any of the first iterations of Dolby Atmos receivers and pre/pros be able to process more than 4 over head speakers in a 7.2.x setup?
Yes.. the Trinnov Altitude... at a cost.
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post #5944 of 14767 Old 08-31-2014, 06:16 PM
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All this talk about monopoles, dipoles and bipoles have had me rethinking my side surround speaker choice. I was going to with these MartinLogan FX2's:


But now I'm thinking of going with Motion 15 or Motion 35XT's:



I take it these traditional monopole speakers would be better at helping Atmos create pinpoint 3D sound, correct?

Should I get the 15 or 35XT? For some reason the cheaper 15 has more dispersion (80x80 vs 80x30), not sure if it's too much dispersion for Atmos. The more expensive 35XT goes down more (50 hz vs 60) and has a lower crossover (2,200 hz vs 2,700 hz), but does that matter if you have a subwoofer crossed at 80? The full specs are here:

http://www.martinlogan.com/motionSeries/specs.php

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post #5945 of 14767 Old 08-31-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
All this talk about monopoles, dipoles and bipoles have had me rethinking my side surround speaker choice. I was going to with these MartinLogan FX2's:


But now I'm thinking of going with Motion 15 or Motion 35XT's:



I take it these traditional monopole speakers would be better at helping Atmos create pinpoint 3D sound, correct?

Should I get the 15 or 35XT? For some reason the cheaper 15 has more dispersion (80x80 vs 80x30), not sure if it's too much dispersion for Atmos. The more expensive 35XT goes down more (50 hz vs 60) and has a lower crossover (2,200 hz vs 2,700 hz), but does that matter if you have a subwoofer crossed at 80? The full specs are here:

http://www.martinlogan.com/motionSeries/specs.php
I read somewhere inDolby's white papers that wide dispersion speakers is recommended for use with Dolby Atmos
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post #5946 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
ONE extra foot of ceiling height results in a TWO foot longer travel distance from speaker to MLP.
Adding 1 foot of ceiling height adds 2 feet in travel only if the listener is co-located with the upfiring speaker. If one sits some 8' away, the path reflects off the ceiling at an angle. The path length increases more like 18" and that adds 1.3 ms to the trip. ChrisK was right about adding 1 ms.

OTOH, his statement: >>The information from these speakers is ambient and not used for imaging.<< is demonstrably incorrect based on Atmos movie mixes.

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post #5947 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 12:48 AM
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If I would install in ceiling speakers in the rear and in the front according to the famous diagram would I then also good to go for Auro or do I need a different setup?
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post #5948 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by richmagnus View Post
I disagree. Tri polar speakers work extremely well as surround speakers. Far better than monopoles IMO.
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Maybe to you. However, as per Dolby and DTS recommendations, they only recommend monopoles.
Are we talking surround arrays or single surround speakers? Movie theaters use arrays and single omni-like surrounds at home are probably closer to the more diffuse presentation of those arrays.

Atmos objects on the other hand call for speakers with higher directivity.

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post #5949 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 02:55 AM
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Would this Klipsch KS 7502 be ok to use as ceiling speaker in a Dolby Atmos set up??
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post #5950 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 04:16 AM
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Would it had a benefit if I would PEQ my two subwoofer separatly? They are in an absolute symetrical position (below the left and right front speaker) . E.g. When using the Trinnov I could assign one output to the left and one output to the right or I could go with a Y-adapter and can connect both subs to it!
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post #5951 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Would it had a benefit if I would PEQ my two subwoofer separatly?
Theoratically yes, but there's no easy procedure to do this by hand. Simply EQ them as one unit.

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post #5952 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
OTOH, his statement: >>The information from these speakers is ambient and not used for imaging.<< is demonstrably incorrect based on Atmos movie mixes.
I raised the same point. Don't you find it disturbing that the CTO of Audyssey doesn't understand how Atmos works, yet at the same time they (Audyssey) are implementing special algorithms to cater for Atmos?
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post #5953 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
If I would install in ceiling speakers in the rear and in the front according to the famous diagram would I then also good to go for Auro or do I need a different setup?
My guess is that such a setup could work for Auro-3d as long as the elevation angles stay below 40 degrees and the speakers are not firing straight down but slightly overhead MLP.
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post #5954 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 08:20 AM
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Pre-Pro question - I currently have a 7.1 amplifier in a 7.1 speaker setup. For my smaller man cave, I can see adding four height speakers, maximum, for a Dolby Atmos configuration.

I believe I will need a pre that can handle Dolby Atmos processing. Can I still use my 7.1 amplifier or do I need the equivalent power per channel? Will this be discrete channels (not matrixed)?

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post #5955 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mre_man View Post
My apologies in advance if I'm posting this in the wrong thread but will any of the first iterations of Dolby Atmos receivers and pre/pros be able to process more than 4 over head speakers in a 7.2.x setup?
I'm not sure if the Marantz AV8802 Prepro (13.2 channels) will allow to reconfigure the wide pair to a third height pair. If so, you could decode 7.1.6 with it.
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post #5956 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Pre-Pro question - I currently have a 7.1 amplifier in a 7.1 speaker setup. For my smaller man cave, I can see adding four height speakers, maximum, for a Dolby Atmos configuration.

I believe I will need a pre that can handle Dolby Atmos processing. Can I still use my 7.1 amplifier or do I need the equivalent power per channel? Will this be discrete channels (not matrixed)?
You need a new pre-pro that will decode Atmos, one that allows for a 7.1.4 configuration. Those are the top of the line models currently. I've never heard of a 7.1 amplifier specifically. Do you mean a multi-channel amplifier that handles seven channels or do you mean you have a 7.1 receiver already?

You'll need an additional five channel amp and then use four to power the ceiling speakers.

Dolby Atmos uses discrete outputs, up to 34. This is not a matrixed format.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #5957 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
I'm not sure if the Marantz AV8802 Prepro (13.2 channels) will allow to reconfigure the wide pair to a third height pair. If so, you could decode 7.1.6 with it.
From everything I've read, it seems like all the Atmos renderers attached to the big electronics manufacturers are limited at up to 7.1.4. Probably because they shoe-horned Atmos into already designed 7.1/9.1/11.1 models for their 2014 lines.

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post #5958 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I raised the same point. Don't you find it disturbing that the CTO of Audyssey doesn't understand how Atmos works, yet at the same time they (Audyssey) are implementing special algorithms to cater for Atmos?
To be fair, all he had to do was meet a Dolby spec for a target curve. It's not like he had to change the fundamental algorithm of MultEQ.

There is some additional discussion on Facebook (Feri asked him about his comment pointing out that objects render in 3D) and Chris seems to be slipping into his coy mode. I asked him if he'd heard an Atmos demo and he said he had, but didn't volunteer any more info. I'm wondering if he just doesn't like Atmos but is being circumspect in order to not piss off any partners.

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post #5959 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Pre-Pro question - I currently have a 7.1 amplifier in a 7.1 speaker setup. For my smaller man cave, I can see adding four height speakers, maximum, for a Dolby Atmos configuration.

I believe I will need a pre that can handle Dolby Atmos processing. Can I still use my 7.1 amplifier or do I need the equivalent power per channel? Will this be discrete channels (not matrixed)?
Use your 7.1 amp and add an additional 2ch amp for 7.1.2 or two, for 7.1.4. I use more powerful amps across the front (300 watt), where most of the heavy lifting is done, with 200 watt amps for the current surround channels, and also for the upcoming Atmos speakers on my ceiling. I have never encountered a situation where this has not been enough. (All power specs into 4 ohm loads).
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post #5960 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
You need a new pre-pro that will decode Atmos, one that allows for a 7.1.4 configuration. Those are the top of the line models currently. I've never heard of a 7.1 amplifier specifically. Do you mean a multi-channel amplifier that handles seven channels?

You'll need an additional five channel amp and then use four to power the ceiling speakers.

Dolby Atmos uses discrete outputs, up to 34. This is not a matrixed format.
He's already got a 7 channel amp. Or does he mean a 7 channel AVR? If he already has a 7 channel amp, then he only needs 4 additional channels of amplification.

If he means he has a 7 channel AVR, then that will have to go when he upgrades to Atmos, so I am not sure what he means, on reflection. If he buys, for example, the Denon X5200W, which is a 9 channel AVR, then he will need 4 more channels of amplification on top.

Or does he mean he wants to use an existing 7.1 AVR as the amp with a new Atmos processor?

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post #5961 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be fair, all he had to do was meet a Dolby spec for a target curve. It's not like he had to change the fundamental algorithm of MultEQ.
True - I wasn't hinting that the Audyssey implementation will be flawed - just that I am surprised that a CTO of a company involved in room EQ for Atmos units apparently doesn't know that Atmos speakers are used for imaging. Maybe he should never have left AVS

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

There is some additional discussion on Facebook (Feri asked him about his comment pointing out that objects render in 3D) and Chris seems to be slipping into his coy mode. I asked him if he'd heard an Atmos demo and he said he had, but didn't volunteer any more info. I'm wondering if he just doesn't like Atmos but is being circumspect in order to not piss off any partners.
If he has heard an Atmos demo I am even more surprised that he doesn't know that Atmos speakers are for imaging!
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post #5962 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
He's already got a 7 channel amp. Or does he mean a 7 channel AVR? If he already has a 7 channel amp, then he only needs 4 additional channels of amplification.

If he means he has a 7 channel AVR, then that will have to go when he upgrades to Atmos, so I am not sure what he means, on reflection. If he buys, for example, the Denon X5200W, which is a 9 channel AVR, then he will need 4 more channels of amplification on top.

Or does he mean he wants to use an existing 7.1 AVR as the amp with a new Atmos processor?

Yeah, that's what I was trying to verify in my previous post. I've never heard of a 7.1 amplifier.

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post #5963 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:22 AM
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Yeah, that's what I was trying to verify in my previous post. I've never heard of a 7.1 amplifier.
Quite - that slipped under my radar. I think between us we have covered all eventualities. Maybe he will come back and clarify...
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post #5964 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:25 AM
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Yeah, that's what I was trying to verify in my previous post. I've never heard of a 7.1 amplifier.
Whoops - sorry about that. I meant a 7 channel amplifier - 7.1 configuration. (Teeny amp for the .1 )

My setup is as follows - Wyred4Sound 7.1 MMC (Seven channels - 221 wpc) - a Pioneer SC65 being used as a "Pre-Amp" with the Pioneer amp turned off.

Instead of buying a new receiver, is it possible to have a Dolby Atmos decoder or something in the chain where I can turn on the Pioneer amp and use that for the new 4 Atmos speakers in a 7.1.4 configuration with the Wyred4Sound amplifer?

I'm trying to visualize the best solution that's also cost effective.

Much thanks - Rico.

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post #5965 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Whoops - sorry about that. I meant a 7 channel amplifier - 7.1 configuration. (Teeny amp for the .1 )

My setup is as follows - Wyred4Sound 7.1 MMC (Seven channels - 220 wpc) - a Pioneer SC65 being used as a "Pre-Amp" with the Pioneer amp turned off.

Instead of buying a new receiver, is it possible to have a Dolby Atmos decoder or something in the chain where I can turn on the Pioneer amp and use that for the new 4 Atmos speakers in a 7.1.4 configuration with the Wyred4Sound amplifer?

I'm trying to visualize the best solution that's also cost effective.

Much thanks - Rico.
I can only see it working if you have multi-channel analog inputs on your SC65 and put it in PURE or DIRECT MODE and power your four ceiling speakers with its amps. However, that would be a b--ch to try and calibrate and level match. You would still need a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos pre-pro. Not exactly cheap, but if you have the funds...

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post #5966 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Whoops - sorry about that. I meant a 7 channel amplifier - 7.1 configuration. (Teeny amp for the .1 )

My setup is as follows - Wyred4Sound 7.1 MMC (Seven channels - 221 wpc) - a Pioneer SC65 being used as a "Pre-Amp" with the Pioneer amp turned off.

Instead of buying a new receiver, is it possible to have a Dolby Atmos decoder or something in the chain where I can turn on the Pioneer amp and use that for the new 4 Atmos speakers in a 7.1.4 configuration with the Wyred4Sound amplifer?

I'm trying to visualize the best solution that's also cost effective.

Much thanks - Rico.
You can keep your 7 channel amp and buy an Atmos processor, but the cheapest option is to buy an Atmos AVR. This will then give you 7 or 9 'spare' channels of amplification, so with your current 7 channel amp, you will have 14 or 16 amp channels in total to play with (more than you need) by mixing and matching them. That is the lowest cost option.
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post #5967 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I can only see it working if you have multi-channel analog inputs on your SC65 and put it in PURE or DIRECT MODE and power your four ceiling speakers with its amps. However, that would be a b--ch to try and calibrate and level match. You would still need a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos pre-pro. Not exactly cheap, but if you have the funds...
Much thanks. I think my setup is not that unusual out there. And, even 5.1 setups.

If Dolby is looking for a bigger market - - they are going to have to find a way to make it economically and technically feasible to get their Dolby Atmos platform out to the masses. Otherwise - - it will be a product that only new buyers or audiophiles will seek. It doesn't make sense to throw out everything you have to make Dolby Atmos work for a HT setup.

So (and please correct me if I'm wrong,) the most cost effective way for me to get there would be by replacing my Pioneer SC65 with a Dolby Atmos receiver - - like the new Marantz SR7009 (must have preouts!) and use the height channels from the Marantz for the additional 4 "height" channels.

Now - if you tell me that I need to exactly match the power specs to my amplifier - - Dolby Atmos is DOA as far as I'm concerned. I'll spend my money on an OLED TV or FALD LCD/LED (75" or greater) and retire my projector.

I think of myself as an early adopter (which can be costly) - - but if the Dolby Atmos solution requires a radical change from your existing environment - - cost and setup wise - - I just do not see this happening for me and a lot of other people.

Thx - Rick.
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post #5968 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 10:52 AM
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In my current 7.1 set up, I have towers for my main left and right fronts and for my rear surround back channels. (4 towers) These four speakers are all towed-in toward the MLP. My only desirable option, when upgrading to a Dolby Atmos system, would be to add four top-mounted modules , placed on the tops of these tower speakers.
Is there a recommendation for how to angle these modules? Would it be correct to angle them the same as my towers? Or, would the set up software take care of all this?
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post #5969 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Much thanks. I think my setup is not that unusual out there. And, even 5.1 setups.

If Dolby is looking for a bigger market - - they are going to have to find a way to make it economically and technically feasible to get their Dolby Atmos platform out to the masses. Otherwise - - it will be a product that only new buyers or audiophiles will seek. It doesn't make sense to throw out everything you have to make Dolby Atmos work for a HT setup.

So (and please correct me if I'm wrong,) the most cost effective way for me to get there would be by replacing my Pioneer SC65 with a Dolby Atmos receiver - - like the new Marantz SR7009 (must have preouts!) and use the height channels from the Marantz for the additional 4 "height" channels.

Now - if you tell me that I need to exactly match the power specs to my amplifier - - Dolby Atmos is DOA as far as I'm concerned. I'll spend my money on an OLED TV or FALD LCD/LED (75" or greater) and retire my projector.

I think of myself as an early adopter (which can be costly) - - but if the Dolby Atmos solution requires a radical change from your existing environment - - cost and setup wise - - I just do not see this happening for me and a lot of other people.

Thx - Rick.
I don't think you'll have a problem due to amp power mismatching unless you have a huge room that you have to fill with sound and the receiver's amps have to strain to power your speakers at a given volume (especially with lower ohm speakers). All the mid and upper level receivers have pre-outs. You could add another multi-channel power amp at a later date and then use the receiver as just a pre-amp again.
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post #5970 of 14767 Old 09-01-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I use more powerful amps across the front (300 watt), where most of the heavy lifting is done, with 200 watt amps for the current surround channels

I've gotten so used to having no distortion (from lack of power) that I can't bear to leave things as it is.
It's not that I listen at ridiculous levels, just goes to prove dynamic range is your friend and needs its own special attention.
I'm going to move up to 500w per channel driven, doubling my current output (L/C/R) for those extremely intense moments (Grenades, gun fire, bomb drops/explosions etc.) once I find an ATMOS capable AVR I'm happy with. Should clear everything nicely for that clean reproduction of the last bit of detail during those moments when things sound all too real.
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Last edited by brwsaw; 09-01-2014 at 03:01 PM.
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