The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
I was all excited about the new Pioneer AVRs with Atmos until I found out like the rest they won't be object based.
Who said they won't be?

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post #572 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Yet isn't DTS claiming they can do object based audio with much less processing power?

I was all excited about the new Pioneer AVRs with Atmos until I found out like the rest they won't be object based.
They are still object-based. The bit that is missing is that there is no way for the AVR to know the exact locations of the speakers (because there is no way for this information to be entered either manually or automatically). If you put the speakers where the AVR 'expects' them to be, then all is fine.

Don't know anything at all about what DTS are doing at this time wrt to the home market.
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post #573 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
I was all excited about the new Pioneer AVRs with Atmos until I found out like the rest they won't be object based.
They are object based. It's just (at least with these first gen Atmos receivers) rendered based on a small subset of fixed speaker location options, as opposed to actually measuring where your speakers are. As Keith noted above, if your speakers are located well, it will still likely work very well.

And potentially sometime in the near future the full remapping/rendering capabilities will be unleashed in affordable AVR's, and then you can upgrade your receiver and keep using the BDP / content you already have with actual measurements instead of "default" locations.

If I was somebody who was super itchy to get Atmos at home (I'm not at this point) I wouldn't let that stop me from trying the first gen, unless I was in a situation where it was basically impossible to get my speakers placed at approximately correct positions.

Plenty of people (myself included) can't put their surrounds at the ideal location in their rooms, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying 5.1 audio. If I could install 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers I'd happily jump on board Atmos.

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post #574 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
They are object based. It's just (at least with these first gen Atmos receivers) rendered based on a small subset of fixed speaker location options, as opposed to actually measuring where your speakers are. As Keith noted above, if your speakers are located well, it will still likely work very well.

And potentially sometime in the near future the full remapping/rendering capabilities will be unleashed in affordable AVR's, and then you can upgrade your receiver and keep using the BDP / content you already have with actual measurements instead of "default" locations.

If I was somebody who was super itchy to get Atmos at home (I'm not at this point) I wouldn't let that stop me from trying the first gen, unless I was in a situation where it was basically impossible to get my speakers placed at approximately correct positions.

Plenty of people (myself included) can't put their surrounds at the ideal location in their rooms, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying 5.1 audio. If I could install 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers I'd happily jump on board Atmos.
Agreed all round. I am super-itchy as you know <> and I am able to put my speakers where Atmos wants them, so I should be all set. However, due to limited room behind the MLP, at this stage I will only be able to do 5.1.2, with the two 'middle top' speakers for Atmos. Once second gen is here, I will be able to do 5.1.4 as the rendering engine will 'know' that my rear top speakers are somewhat forward of their ideal placement. For now, I am happy with that.

The upside is that I will only need the Denon X4100W at this time, which is relatively cheap. I may even cover its cost with the sale of my flagship Onkyo processor.
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post #575 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
They are object based. It's just (at least with these first gen Atmos receivers) rendered based on a small subset of fixed speaker location options, as opposed to actually measuring where your speakers are. As Keith noted above, if your speakers are located well, it will still likely work very well.

And potentially sometime in the near future the full remapping/rendering capabilities will be unleashed in affordable AVR's, and then you can upgrade your receiver and keep using the BDP / content you already have with actual measurements instead of "default" locations.

If I was somebody who was super itchy to get Atmos at home (I'm not at this point) I wouldn't let that stop me from trying the first gen, unless I was in a situation where it was basically impossible to get my speakers placed at approximately correct positions.

Plenty of people (myself included) can't put their surrounds at the ideal location in their rooms, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying 5.1 audio. If I could install 2 or 4 in-ceiling speakers I'd happily jump on board Atmos.
That is exactly my situation.
But now I'm revisiting the Pioneer thread to make sure I didn't miss something.
Maybe for us these new Atmos enabled speakers is the way to go vs ceiling ones.
Either way I'm waiting for some actual reviews before I spend any capital.
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post #576 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Yet isn't DTS claiming they can do object based audio with much less processing power?

I was all excited about the new Pioneer AVRs with Atmos until I found out like the rest they won't be object based.
No worries, I'll just sit back and read about the early adopter's trials and tribulations.
I'm a recovering Early Adopter and attend weekly EA meetings.
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post #577 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
That is exactly my situation.
But now I'm revisiting the Pioneer thread to make sure I didn't miss something.
Maybe for us these new Atmos enabled speakers is the way to go vs ceiling ones.
Why would any of this impact your decision to use Atmos enabled speakers vs. installing actual in-ceiling speakers? I don't think that should change the calculus at all. If you CAN install in-ceiling speakers, that is obviously preferred regardless of any "handicaps" of 1st gen home Atmos; the Atmos enabled speakers exist for those who can't or won't install in-ceiling speakers but still want to experience Atmos.

I can't think of any piece of information we have heard which would make the Atmos enabled speakers preferred over an actual in-ceiling top speaker. When would a reflected "virtual" speaker ever be better than an actual speaker in that spot?
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post #578 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:56 AM
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Posted today at the Emotiva Lounge, by Andrew Robinson.

"At present the XMC-1 is not Atmos enabled. I cannot speak for the future, but as of this moment in time (8:02am CST)the XMC-1 does not support Atmos. For the record, if everything Dolby says about Atmos in the home is true, THE ONLY difference between an existing 5.1/7.1 setup now versus one with Atmos, is the inclusion of ceiling channels. Minus 2 or 4 ceiling speakers you are NOT getting anything new or different than what you already have with Dolby TrueHD via Dolby Atmos.

"The second caveat to all of this is in fact DTS. DTS has their version of Atmos coming soon -likely around the same time Atmos products actually start selling. The DTS format, as I understand it, IS object based opposed to Atmos in the home which is not -okay maybe the ceiling channels are "technically" objects, but your main 5.1/7.1 setup is decidedly not. Also, the DTS format is proving to be far less processor intensive, meaning its adoption could be more widespread and easier to accommodate than Atmos (speculation based on early reports). Regardless, it's too early to jump aboard the "XMC-1 is obsolete" train at this time. Sure there are products that have been announced with Atmos support, however they're not for sale yet, DTS hasn't lowered the boom, and frankly, a lot of those products said they were HDMI 2.0/2.2/4K/UHD ready and, well, the CEA just modified the UHD standard last week making many of those claims no longer 100% accurate.

"In other words, the sky isn't falling, nor should anyone be losing any sleep over all of this. "


Sigh.....
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post #579 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Why would any of this impact your decision to use Atmos enabled speakers vs. installing actual in-ceiling speakers? I don't think that should change the calculus at all. If you CAN install in-ceiling speakers, that is obviously preferred regardless of any "handicaps" of 1st gen home Atmos; the Atmos enabled speakers exist for those who can't or won't install in-ceiling speakers but still want to experience Atmos.

I can't think of any piece of information we have heard which would make the Atmos enabled speakers preferred over an actual in-ceiling top speaker. When would a reflected "virtual" speaker ever be better than an actual speaker in that spot?
Sorry for not being clear, I can't install ceiling speakers easily.
I suspect many are in the same situation, no?
(or does everyone here have a custom built HT room?)

It appears Pioneer (and now Onkyo) is banking on this with their approach.
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post #580 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 09:59 AM
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Posted today at the Emotiva Lounge, by Andrew Robinson.

"At present the XMC-1 is not Atmos enabled. I cannot speak for the future, but as of this moment in time (8:02am CST)the XMC-1 does not support Atmos. For the record, if everything Dolby says about Atmos in the home is true, THE ONLY difference between an existing 5.1/7.1 setup now versus one with Atmos, is the inclusion of ceiling channels. Minus 2 or 4 ceiling speakers you are NOT getting anything new or different than what you already have with Dolby TrueHD via Dolby Atmos.

"The second caveat to all of this is in fact DTS. DTS has their version of Atmos coming soon -likely around the same time Atmos products actually start selling. The DTS format, as I understand it, IS object based opposed to Atmos in the home which is not -okay maybe the ceiling channels are "technically" objects, but your main 5.1/7.1 setup is decidedly not. Also, the DTS format is proving to be far less processor intensive, meaning its adoption could be more widespread and easier to accommodate than Atmos (speculation based on early reports). Regardless, it's too early to jump aboard the "XMC-1 is obsolete" train at this time. Sure there are products that have been announced with Atmos support, however they're not for sale yet, DTS hasn't lowered the boom, and frankly, a lot of those products said they were HDMI 2.0/2.2/4K/UHD ready and, well, the CEA just modified the UHD standard last week making many of those claims no longer 100% accurate.

"In other words, the sky isn't falling, nor should anyone be losing any sleep over all of this. "


Sigh.....

Why a sigh? Did they finally break your heart and that is it you are not buying their product? Geesh.
what said here isn't a valid point or concern?

Everyone knows Atmos is going to be a big OEM via AVRs driven market.
Smaller manufactures (like they always do) follow much slowly afterwards if at all.
Now if you posted that one of the big boys said this, that would be "sigh" material.
But that isn't going to happen becasue come hell or high water the OEMs will put out competing products for your fall dollars.
(got to make 4Q forecast!)

No big surprize here other than to try and drum up drama.

Can we stick to manufactures that are actually trying to release a Atmos product this year to this thread?

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post #581 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:00 AM
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Posted today at the Emotiva Lounge, by Andrew Robinson.



"In other words, the sky isn't falling, nor should anyone be losing any sleep over all of this. "


Sigh.....
Nor will I be purchasing any of their products.

Attitude.
Satisfaction.
Products that exist.

Work on it, Emotiva.
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post #582 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Why would any of this impact your decision to use Atmos enabled speakers vs. installing actual in-ceiling speakers? I don't think that should change the calculus at all. If you CAN install in-ceiling speakers, that is obviously preferred regardless of any "handicaps" of 1st gen home Atmos; the Atmos enabled speakers exist for those who can't or won't install in-ceiling speakers but still want to experience Atmos.

I can't think of any piece of information we have heard which would make the Atmos enabled speakers preferred over an actual in-ceiling top speaker. When would a reflected "virtual" speaker ever be better than an actual speaker in that spot?
Yes. Due to the infinite number of ceiling designs, shapes, and materials, it seems like the performance of the Atmos enabled speakers will be variable as well. In-ceiling speakers should be able to provide much better consistency.
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post #583 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Posted today at the Emotiva Lounge, by Andrew Robinson.

"At present the XMC-1 is not Atmos enabled. I cannot speak for the future, but as of this moment in time (8:02am CST)the XMC-1 does not support Atmos. For the record, if everything Dolby says about Atmos in the home is true, THE ONLY difference between an existing 5.1/7.1 setup now versus one with Atmos, is the inclusion of ceiling channels. Minus 2 or 4 ceiling speakers you are NOT getting anything new or different than what you already have with Dolby TrueHD via Dolby Atmos.

"The second caveat to all of this is in fact DTS. DTS has their version of Atmos coming soon -likely around the same time Atmos products actually start selling. The DTS format, as I understand it, IS object based opposed to Atmos in the home which is not -okay maybe the ceiling channels are "technically" objects, but your main 5.1/7.1 setup is decidedly not. Also, the DTS format is proving to be far less processor intensive, meaning its adoption could be more widespread and easier to accommodate than Atmos (speculation based on early reports). Regardless, it's too early to jump aboard the "XMC-1 is obsolete" train at this time. Sure there are products that have been announced with Atmos support, however they're not for sale yet, DTS hasn't lowered the boom, and frankly, a lot of those products said they were HDMI 2.0/2.2/4K/UHD ready and, well, the CEA just modified the UHD standard last week making many of those claims no longer 100% accurate.

"In other words, the sky isn't falling, nor should anyone be losing any sleep over all of this. "


Sigh.....
CEA Updates Characteristics for Ultra High-Definition Displays:
http://www.ce.org/News/News-Releases...h-Definit.aspx

Outake from the CEA update:
Digital Input – Has one or more HDMI inputs supporting at least 3840x2160 native content resolution at 24p, 30p and 60p frames per second. At least one of the 3840x2160 HDMI inputs shall support HDCP revision 2.2 or equivalent content protection.

Is there is an announced AVR or pre-pro that meets this spec in total (3840x2160 native content resolution at 60p with HDCP 2.2) and supports Atmos?

I'm just a caveman. Your modern world frightens and confuses me.

Last edited by kokishin; 07-08-2014 at 10:25 AM.
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post #584 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:18 AM
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I was all excited about the new Pioneer AVRs with Atmos until I found out like the rest they won't be object based.
What do you mean "won't be object based"? You don't think Pioneer AVRs will decode the objects in Atmos soundtracks?

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post #585 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:30 AM
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What do you mean "won't be object based"? You don't think Pioneer AVRs will decode the objects in Atmos soundtracks?
Didn't say that.
What I should have said will these 1st gen AVRs know exactly where in space the speakers are? (like in Cinema Atmos?)
It looks like Pioneer's MCACC might be the first to do that. It just isn't that clear to me even with the info I found out so far.
So until we know for sure, this is all I can assume from the information that is out there.


..or maybe I'm way off base and this isn't even important to home Atmos and this is the best we can get.
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post #586 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:32 AM
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Why a sigh?
Because of their continued misinformation, in this case saying that DTS-MDA "IS object based opposed to Atmos in the home which is not".

Also for their 'if it's not in our pre-pro, it's not important' attitude. Robinson did something similar previously on his blog when they were backpeddling on their HDMI 2.0 announcement.

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.co...houldnt-panic/
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post #587 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:38 AM
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It looks like Pioneer's MCACC might be the first to do that.
Yamaha already does that. But in both cases, the speaker location info won't be used by the Atmos rendering engine in 1st gen Atmos products. As more outputs and more features are added by AVR manufacturers in the future, the object-based nature of Atmos will become more evident as you see the same soundtracks on Blu-ray adapt to different speaker layouts.

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post #588 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
CEA Updates Characteristics for Ultra High-Definition Displays:
http://www.ce.org/News/News-Releases...h-Definit.aspx

Outake from the CEA update:
Digital Input – Has one or more HDMI inputs supporting at least 3840x2160 native content resolution at 24p, 30p and 60p frames per second. At least one of the 3840x2160 HDMI inputs shall support HDCP revision 2.2 or equivalent content protection.

Is there is an announced AVR or pre-pro that meets this spec in total (3840x2160 native content resolution at 60p with HDCP 2.2) and supports Atmos?

Onkyo/Integra but they dropped Audyssey.


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post #589 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yamaha already does that. But in both cases, the speaker location info won't be used by the Atmos rendering engine in 1st gen Atmos products. As more outputs and more features are added by AVR manufacturers in the future, the object-based nature of Atmos will become more evident as you see the same soundtracks on Blu-ray adapt to different speaker layouts.
Ok, so then in effect what these 1st gen products are doing is taking object based audio and turning it to discrete channels that we define in the initial layout?

Trying to make sense of what is really going on in the home version vs the cinema version.
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post #590 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:02 AM
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Basically yes. But that's what any object based rendering does, it processes the positional data of the objects and renders them in real time to the speakers that are present in the layout.

The distinction is that instead of MEASURING where your speakers actually are, it just ASSUMES where they are based on the layout you choose in the processor.
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post #591 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:08 AM
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This is how surround sound has worked for ages.

I don't quite get why people are suddenly threatened by this same practice once objects are introduced. Those objects will all still go to their intended position within the mix.

Yes, yes. I get it. People want to put their speakers in specific places. There will always be compromise in ANY system. How speaker remapping will completely negate compromise is an unrealistic expectation.


I don't know. I must be missing something. We all got along just fine but then words like 'Atmos', 'objects' and 'ceiling speakers' gets thrown around and the whole A/V world head explodes.
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post #592 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:15 AM
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This is how surround sound has worked for ages.

I don't quite get why people are suddenly threatened by this same practice once objects are introduced. Those objects will all still go to their intended position within the mix
Because it gives up what is essentially the same functionality as Trinnov's lauded remapping.

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post #593 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:15 AM
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How speaker remapping will completely negate compromise is an unrealistic expectation.


I think that's a bit of a strawman as phrased. I think "mitigate" would be more fair than "completely negate".

I do understand the disappointment with the lack of measuring/remapping, as it WOULD help those who have suboptimal layouts. And it's exciting to think about how the same soundtrack could easily scale to a variety of layouts. I do agree (and have said before elsewhere) that the backlash based on the lack of this feature seems too extreme.

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post #594 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:23 AM
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Because it gives up what is essentially the same functionality as Trinnov's lauded remapping.
Giving up a feature that almost nobody has? It's in practically nothing, this Trinnov.

Noah, you certainly get by just fine without any speaker remapping.

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post #595 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Ok, so then in effect what these 1st gen products are doing is taking object based audio and turning it to discrete channels that we define in the initial layout?
In order to get 1st gen AVRs to market quickly, looks like Dolby has made it as easy on manufacturers as possible. Number of max outputs has stayed the same (11.2). And even on those models, number of amp channels has stayed the same (9), except the top o'the line Onkyo or Integra. So basically, this was a decoder swap.

However, the new DSP allows for decoding of Atmos soundtracks. But they haven't yet taken advantage of some capabilities of object-based rendering, like mapping the sound to your actual speaker locations. Until then, it will feel like a channel-based soundtrack for all intents and purposes, sending the sound from each channel to its respective speaker based on assumed placement and able to downmix from 7.1.4 speakers to 5.1.2 speakers. Could have done that with a discrete 11.1 mix.

Last week, people got a whiff of the Trinnov Altitude 32 (guess what that number stands for) that is due out near the end of the year. At that point, the object-based nature of Atmos will be obvious, since it will adapt to 32 outputs in ways that a discrete 11.1 soundtrack couldn't.

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post #596 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post


I think that's a bit of a strawman as phrased. I think "mitigate" would be more fair than "completely negate".

I do understand the disappointment with the lack of measuring/remapping, as it WOULD help those who have suboptimal layouts. And it's exciting to think about how the same soundtrack could easily scale to a variety of layouts. I do agree (and have said before elsewhere) that the backlash based on the lack of this feature seems too extreme.

What it negates is any advantage for a first gen home Atmos product to be of any benefit to those without ceiling speakers or ceiling reflective speakers.
I was intrigued by the positional processing as a potential enhancement for my 5.1 system.


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post #597 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:31 AM
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D&M has now confirmed that a 9.1.2 (w/Front Wides + top middle) will be an available Atmos configuration on the Denon X5200W/X7200W and Marantz AV7702/SR7009/AV8802.


Can Marantz AV8802 do 9.1.4 (w/Front Wides + 4 ceiling channels) ?
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post #598 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:35 AM
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I don't quite get why people are suddenly threatened by this same practice once objects are introduced.
Threatened? Where did that word come from? People are understandably disappointed that the introduction of object-based audio is no different than if it had been discrete 11.1 mixes. Of course that will change in the future, but that means having to wait AND then find out if you can afford the devices that render using measured speaker locations.

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post #599 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:38 AM
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Well the same can be said about anything new or upcoming in the world of technology.

If this wasn't Atmos and this was just, "hey! TrueHD and DTS-MA now support 11.1ch discrete" I'd be just as excited.

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post #600 of 11624 Old 07-08-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
D&M has now confirmed that a 9.1.2 (w/Front Wides + top middle) will be an available Atmos configuration on the Denon X5200W/X7200W and Marantz AV7702/SR7009/AV8802.
Nice to have the additional flexibility. Do you know if 7.1.4 can be configured to include a single pair of surrounds and a pair of wides?

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