The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think that's a bit of a strawman as phrased. I think "mitigate" would be more fair than "completely negate".
It sure is; nothing completely negates compromise, nor does anyone expect such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Giving up a feature that almost nobody has? It's in practically nothing, this Trinnov.

Noah, you certainly get by just fine without any speaker remapping.
Right, just like people got by just fine with mono, then stereo, then Dolby surround, etc.

Seems out of character for you to be poo-pooing a known advance.

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post #602 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 12:43 PM
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I wasn't. I am flabberghasted by all the fits people are throwing about anything they can wrt Atmos@home.

It's not enough channels
It's not enough speakers
Where's the remapping
Why can't I use wides
I'm not putting speakers on my ceiling
I have to move my heights now


It's always something and when have I poo-poo'd any of this? C'mon. I down for this even in it's 'limited/neutered' form.

If it's anything.... I don't get what all the fuss is about Trinnov or Dirac.... but let's not go OT.
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post #603 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
If this wasn't Atmos and this was just, "hey! TrueHD and DTS-MA now support 11.1ch discrete" I'd be just as excited.
There wouldn't have been any disappointment, since there wouldn't have any expectation based on what object-based audio could do.

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post #604 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 12:52 PM
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So do you expect to get that 'object audio dream' fulfilled any time soon? We were talking about how mixers would now put sound and render it in a bubble. That is not the case, as we have discussed. It could be but it isn't. There is a lot of talk, not a lot of walk so far in the industry.


There is a difference between a dream technology and then professionals actually implementing it. You know I'm with you on this.

I can sit around forever and wait for that perfect object-audio product..... that still doesn't exist. I was going to say I'd like you to give me a call when you hear about this fantasy product but I'd like to see you again before I die.

Expectations create disappointments.

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post #605 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 12:55 PM
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Agh! You guys!

Alright. Just.... Noah.... come down to Clovis. I'll drive you the rest of the way to LA. I'll buy you both lunch and/or dinner and a movie. We can go to the AMC Prime and then Barney's!

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post #606 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
It's not enough channels
It's not enough speakers
Where's the remapping
Why can't I use wides
I'm not putting speakers on my ceiling
I have to move my heights now
Those are all legitimate concerns, evidenced by the fact that they are all being addressed rather than ignored.

Dolby addressed the first two and last two in their FAQ, assuring consumers that Atmos can go beyond the 11-speaker limit of 1st gen products and pointing out alternatives to putting speakers on the ceiling. The first 3 points will also be addressed by the Trinnov Altitude. The situation with wides just got addressed.

These concerns wouldn't have been addressed if they were mere whines. Dolby even had a FAQ question to reassure folks that Atmos is indeed object based. Why did they feel the need to do that? Even they knew that 1st gen Atmos comes across as channel-based.
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post #607 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Why a sigh? Did they finally break your heart and that is it you are not buying their product? Geesh.
what said here isn't a valid point or concern?

Everyone knows Atmos is going to be a big OEM via AVRs driven market.
Smaller manufactures (like they always do) follow much slowly afterwards if at all.
Now if you posted that one of the big boys said this, that would be "sigh" material.
But that isn't going to happen becasue come hell or high water the OEMs will put out competing products for your fall dollars.
(got to make 4Q forecast!)

No big surprize here other than to try and drum up drama.

Can we stick to manufactures that are actually trying to release a Atmos product this year to this thread?
The sigh was at the sheer lack of understanding displayed in that post.
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post #608 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What do you mean "won't be object based"? You don't think Pioneer AVRs will decode the objects in Atmos soundtracks?
Andrew Robinson doesn't. Well, he thinks it will only happen in the ceiling speakers....
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post #609 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I was intrigued by the positional processing as a potential enhancement for my 5.1 system.


- Rich
Yes, it is a disappointment that that wasn't included from the get-go, I agree. But if you can place your speakers in the recommended positions, it is of no consequence.
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post #610 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:20 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I wasn't. I am flabberghasted by all the fits people are throwing about anything they can wrt Atmos@home.

It's not enough channels
It's not enough speakers
Where's the remapping
Why can't I use wides
I'm not putting speakers on my ceiling
I have to move my heights now


It's always something and when have I poo-poo'd any of this? C'mon. I down for this even in it's 'limited/neutered' form.

If it's anything.... I don't get what all the fuss is about Trinnov or Dirac.... but let's not go OT.


I totally agree with your comment. The new ATMOS tech is giving us the option of utilizing up to 4 height speakers and new sound fields and I think that is cool! And of course new things will be added down the road as the tech develops because that is the normal flow. And some of us will buy it now and some will wait until there are more bells and whistles - which is also how it goes.
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post #611 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Threatened? Where did that word come from? People are understandably disappointed that the introduction of object-based audio is no different than if it had been discrete 11.1 mixes. Of course that will change in the future, but that means having to wait AND then find out if you can afford the devices that render using measured speaker locations.
Ye, I was disappointed as you know. But even a discrete 11.1 mix is way better than what is currently available. Not perfect, but still better.
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post #612 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P View Post
Can Marantz AV8802 do 9.1.4 (w/Front Wides + 4 ceiling channels) ?
Doesn't seem to be, but it would be nice.



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post #613 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
So do you expect to get that 'object audio dream' fulfilled any time soon? We were talking about how mixers would now put sound and render it in a bubble. That is not the case, as we have discussed. It could be but it isn't. There is a lot of talk, not a lot of walk so far in the industry.


There is a difference between a dream technology and then professionals actually implementing it. You know I'm with you on this.

I can sit around forever and wait for that perfect object-audio product..... that still doesn't exist. I was going to say I'd like you to give me a call when you hear about this fantasy product but I'd like to see you again before I die.

Expectations create disappointments.
This may be way off base and I am happy to be shot down, but I think we are already benefiting in a limited way from Atmos mixes. For example, I understand that the dialogue in 'Gravity' was created as objects so that the characters' voices could follow their movement around the environment with great precision. And in the Bluray version of the movie that I have, this works very, very well indeed even in a standard 5.1 layout. If people disagree, note that I will not attempt to defend this post - it is just a subjective feeling I had after watching that movie.
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post #614 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The sigh was at the sheer lack of understanding displayed in that post.
That is part I don't quite get.
Can you explain?
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post #615 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Doesn't seem to be, but it would be nice.



Well, it has two sets of "ceiling" pre-output, "height-1" and "height-2" + "front wide"
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post #616 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by J.P View Post
Well, it has two sets of "ceiling" pre-output, "height-1" and "height-2" + "front wide"
Remains to be seen if all 13 outputs can be used together.

Sanjay
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post #617 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
That is part I don't quite get.
Can you explain?
Well the most obvious was that he clearly said that Atmos was not object-based, but DTS-UHD was. That is incorrect.

In addition there is a lot of confusion about channels, speakers and what Atmos is and how it works.

And his statement that DTS-UHD will 'likely' arrive at the same time as Atmos (ie this fall) when they don't even have a theatrical version yet is just off the scale IMO.
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post #618 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Well the most obvious was that he clearly said that Atmos was not object-based, but DTS-UHD was. That is incorrect.

In addition there is a lot of confusion about channels, speakers and what Atmos is and how it works.

And his statement that DTS-UHD will 'likely' arrive at the same time as Atmos (ie this fall) when they don't even have a theatrical version yet is just off the scale IMO.
Someone should start a DTS-UHD thread.
they did have a booth at CES.
http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-r...nics-show.aspx
While not in theaters, does that matter?
I don't recall that many DTS only theaters now yet the majority of my blurays have DTS-HD on them.
Not sure how not being in theaters is that big of a deal.
As to the objects vs discrete I think we are talking in circles here.
i asked here if these new AVRs take object based audio and creates discrete channels.
The answer is yes so again I don't see the big deal.

Now I'll give you the confusion around speakers, heck I'm still sorting through that myself and will have to make some hard choices if I want to jump on this bandwagon.

Right now as it stands I like the idea very much just not the current sacrifices I will need to make to play in the game at this point.
I think the best course for ME is to wait and see how this sorts itself out.
It would be silly to think that Dolby will be the only object based toy in town just like I can't buy a Dolby only AVR.
(and its a good thing since for the most part I tend to prefer DTS-HD MA over Dolby TrueHD mixes)
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post #619 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by J.P View Post
Can Marantz AV8802 do 9.1.4 (w/Front Wides + 4 ceiling channels) ?
Specs not confirmed yet, but extra outputs (beyond speaker processing capability) on current/past models are provided to allow for different configurations without having to rewire speakers.

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post #620 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Those are all legitimate concerns, evidenced by the fact that they are all being addressed rather than ignored.

Dolby addressed the first two and last two in their FAQ, assuring consumers that Atmos can go beyond the 11-speaker limit of 1st gen products and pointing out alternatives to putting speakers on the ceiling. The first 3 points will also be addressed by the Trinnov Altitude. The situation with wides just got addressed.

These concerns wouldn't have been addressed if they were mere whines. Dolby even had a FAQ question to reassure folks that Atmos is indeed object based. Why did they feel the need to do that? Even they knew that 1st gen Atmos comes across as channel-based.
Well said. The issue isn't that I don't understand these parts though. It's .... others that don't.

I know what I'm in for and I think it's great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
I totally agree with your comment. The new ATMOS tech is giving us the option of utilizing up to 4 height speakers and new sound fields and I think that is cool! And of course new things will be added down the road as the tech develops because that is the normal flow. And some of us will buy it now and some will wait until there are more bells and whistles - which is also how it goes.
Hell yeah! Can't sit around forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Doesn't seem to be, but it would be nice.


Yes it would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This may be way off base and I am happy to be shot down, but I think we are already benefiting in a limited way from Atmos mixes. For example, I understand that the dialogue in 'Gravity' was created as objects so that the characters' voices could follow their movement around the environment with great precision. And in the Bluray version of the movie that I have, this works very, very well indeed even in a standard 5.1 layout. If people disagree, note that I will not attempt to defend this post - it is just a subjective feeling I had after watching that movie.
It was an excellent mix, for sure.

Though what you are hearing on BD is not objects. You do not own any software or hardware that is object aware.

Unless you're holding out on me.

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post #621 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
...I down for this even in it's 'limited/neutered' form.

If it's anything.... I don't get what all the fuss is about Trinnov or Dirac.... but let's not go OT.
Oh OK, I misconstrued your comments.

Have you heard Dirac or Trinnov?

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post #622 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Oh OK, I misconstrued your comments.

Have you heard Dirac or Trinnov?
Yeah sorry.

No I have not heard either of these though I am interested in hearing a full setup. To me they just sound like the 'latest greatest' in room correction until the next 'latest greatest' comes around.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like to think of them in a cynical way. A lot of people that I respect seem to think either of these are great. I just don't get it, myself. Though I've heard similar comments about Audyssey and such which I have not been very impressed with.

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post #623 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
i asked here if these new AVRs take object based audio and creates discrete channels.
What do you mean by "create discrete channels"? Bass management creates a subwoofer output, but that's not a "discrete channel" since it is a combination of signals from the LFE and other channels. Likewise, objects have to be output from somewhere. Are you calling those outputs "discrete channels"?
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for the most part I tend to prefer DTS-HD MA over Dolby TrueHD mixes
Well, that explains things.

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post #624 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What do you mean by "create discrete channels"? Bass management creates a subwoofer output, but that's not a "discrete channel" since it is a combination of signals from the LFE and other channels. Likewise, objects have to be output from somewhere. Are you calling those outputs "discrete channels"? Well, that explains things.
Has Dolby specified what type (direct radiators or BiPoles) will be preferred for the ceiling speakers? it seems to me that BiPoles might be a bit more forgiving with speaker placement, especially when there are two rows of seating.
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post #625 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:45 PM
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Well, that explains things.
It may only explain that DTS has the lion's share of bluray titles currently?

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159814

Quite a list and most are DTS so just by pure statistics my statement is true.

By a factor of 6:1 BTW.

But we digress.
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post #626 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by IA_Hi_Fi_Guy View Post
Has Dolby specified what type (direct radiators or BiPoles) will be preferred for the ceiling speakers? it seems to me that BiPoles might be a bit more forgiving with speaker placement, especially when there are two rows of seating.
Dolby hasn't specified. If you can find direct radiators with wide enough dispersion to cover both rows, then that would work well (everybody hears overhead sounds without those sounds being sprayed on the side walls). If you can't find wide dispersion speakers that you like, then try bipoles, though they will spread height information in every direction and possibly soften directionality.

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post #627 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:50 PM
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It may only explain that DTS has the lion's share of bluray titles currently?

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159814

Quite a list and most are DTS so just by pure statistics my statement is true.

By a factor of 6:1 BTW.

But we digress.
That just means you liked the mix for whatever movie it was that you were watching. Being either PCM, TrueHD or DTS-MA has no bearing on what you heard.

If all the movies you enjoyed were presented in DTS-MA is purely coincidence.

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post #628 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 03:53 PM
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It may only explain that DTS has the lion's share of bluray titles currently?
No, that has to do with DTS authoring tools taking less time and effort than Dolby's. It's not like one lossless codec is somehow 'more identical' to the original than another lossless codec. The fact that you prefer one to the other explains your understanding of the technology and puts some of your comments in context.

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post #629 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Dolby hasn't specified. If you can find direct radiators with wide enough dispersion to cover both rows, then that would work well (everybody hears overhead sounds without those sounds being sprayed on the side walls). If you can't find wide dispersion speakers that you like, then try bipoles, though they will spread height information in every direction and possibly soften directionality.
Or use CD (controlled directivity) coaxials that do a better job of maintaining full freq response off-axis and allow more even coverage by proper orientation.

This would be by roughly pointing them at the opposite side of the listening area to put farther listeners on-axis, while nearer ones would not be blasted with high SPL by virtue of being off-axis.

This is similar to toeing in the L/R's and works with any direct radiator, but more effectively with ones that have CD characteristics.
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Last edited by noah katz; 07-08-2014 at 04:14 PM.
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post #630 of 14419 Old 07-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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^^^ Agreed about the energy trading approach (cross toe-ing), whether using coaxials or otherwise.

Sanjay
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