The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
thanks everyone.

i think what i mean to communicate is different. what i'm trying to say is this:
Before TrueHD/DTS-HD MA was available and you only had a AVR capable of DD or DTS lossy and a DVD player. When BD/HD DVD came along it brought about the lossless formats. you *HAD* to purchase a new equipment to enjoy lossless surround sound. and yes i'm aware of the all backward compatibility. you had BD/HD DVD players with 5.1 RCA analog outs for AVRs that could receive them to enjoy lossless.

i think that's what we are seeing here with the 1st gen Atmos.

but what i'm trying to communicate is, eventually many of the HT enthusiasts purchased new AVRs that could decode bitstream lossless TrueHD/DTS-HD MA and BD players. so where we should be going is straight out of the gate new AVRs/BD players that can do that Atmos straight out of the gate instead of going with the in between solutions.

we're always trying to play stop-gap instead of just going full on ahead and doing it right the first time.

let's say we did this in 1991, create a spec cappable of handling 4k, 8k, 16k XYZ color space with object oriented then allow technology to catch up to the realization of that. the business side of technology doesn't allow that of course lolz...
But to one of your points... Blu-ray players don't have to be updated to bitstream an Atmos track (at least in this iteration of it). It thinks you're sending a Dolby TrueHD track instead.

Yes, you will need a new decoder to derive any extra benefits from said track.

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post #692 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:08 PM
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from what i read (of what little info there is currently). Atmos will "piggy-back" off of LPCM or TrueHD while the actual steering logic will be done on player side... which means you'll need a upgrade the player, no? that's one of the more confusing aspects now. get Atmos without spending any $ currently...

i'm skeptical.

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post #693 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:31 PM
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No, that's exactly the opposite of how it works. The Atmos data is encoded within the existing TrueHD codec, utilizing the "core" for the fixed channel based bed and the extensions to carry the object metadata. The player just needs to bitstream TrueHD -- the player has no idea whether the actual soundtrack has Atmos data or not.

The PROCESSOR is what is doing the decoding and rendering. If the AVR doesn't support Atmos, it will simply decode like a standard TrueHD track. If the AVR has Atmos, it will decode the TrueHD and incorporate the object metadata and render the sound the appropriate channels.

So any BDP which can bitstream TrueHD can deliver any Atmos soundtrack. The only thing that needs to be upgraded is the receiver/processor (and of course adding extra speakers up top).

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post #694 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:34 PM
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^^^ No, no need for new players.

The existing players ability to bitstream the DolbyTrue HD track (which is a container with variable meta-data driven contents) is all that's required. The new Atmos-enhanced TrueHD track will be indistinguishable from today's TrueHD, at least to the player.
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post #695 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
from what i read (of what little info there is currently). Atmos will "piggy-back" off of LPCM or TrueHD while the actual steering logic will be done on player side... which means you'll need a upgrade the player, no? that's one of the more confusing aspects now. get Atmos without spending any $ currently...

i'm skeptical.
Atmos objects are only available as "metadata" added to a TrueHD or DD+ bitstream, not LPCM. No current BD players can decode Atmos, so they can't send it as LPCM, either. (Maybe the next generation of Oppo players might.) For Atmos objects to get to a receiver or pre/pro, the Dolby audio tracks have to be "bitstreamed" from the player to a decoding device. In other words, Atmos is "compatible" with any BD pleyer which can bitstream TrueHD or DD+ audio tracks. As a result, the original "Fat" PS3 can't pass Atmos objects, but all other Blu-ray disc players that I'm aware of can.

If you don't have an Atmos decoder (in a receiver or pre/pro) you'll hear just the "bed" lossless 5.1 or 7.1 audio tracks, so to that extent you don't need to upgrade. I dunno if the audio that Atmos objects would have sent to the overhead speakers are folded into the bed audio in a way that PLIIz could redirect them to front height speakers.

See http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

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post #696 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Atmos objects are only available as "metadata" added to a TrueHD or DD+ bitstream, not LPCM. No current BD players can decode Atmos, so they can't send it as LPCM, either. (Maybe the next generation of Oppo players might.) For Atmos objects to get to a receiver or pre/pro, the Dolby audio tracks have to be "bitstreamed" from the player to a decoding device. In other words, Atmos is "compatible" with any BD pleyer which can bitstream TrueHD or DD+ audio tracks. As a result, the original "Fat" PS3 can't pass Atmos objects, but all other Blu-ray disc players that I'm aware of can.

If you don't have an Atmos decoder (in a receiver or pre/pro) you'll hear just the "bed" lossless 5.1 or 7.1 audio tracks, so to that extent you don't need to upgrade. I dunno if the audio that Atmos objects would have sent to the overhead speakers are folded into the bed audio in a way that PLIIz could redirect them to front height speakers.

See http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/
Any object sounds that are in the extension files are also in the channel bed "core." When the core + extension files are combined via an Atmos renderer, the sounds from the objects are also inverted out of phase with that of the sounds in the channel beds and that "cancels" them out of the channel beds. You cannot hear them. All you hear are the 3D positional object versions of those sounds laid on top of the channel beds.

It works the same way in commercial theaters for backwards compatibility with older processors. You lose nothing from the soundtrack by only playing the 7.1 version and not the full Atmos track.

I'm taking an audio class right now and the instructor did a similar thing in Protools: took two exact sounds and played them back with their sound waves inverted and to your ears... no sound was played. Even though two sound waves were generated. Pretty cool. Gotta love physics.

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post #697 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 12:59 PM
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thanks all. i haven't gotten to that level of detail yet let's hope for the best!

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post #698 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 01:22 PM
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The flip side opinion wise.

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post #699 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 01:53 PM
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^^^ I love when the guy in blue says "we're not trying to dis Atmos too hard".

They ran an article on their website a few months ago explaining how Atmos speakers could not possibly work and would result in an acoustic mess.

The video continues to push their agenda, but not too hard.

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post #700 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I'm taking an audio class right now and the instructor did a similar thing in Protools: took two exact sounds and played them back with their sound waves inverted and to your ears... no sound was played. Even though two sound waves were generated. Pretty cool. Gotta love physics.
Did he play them back over two different loudspeakers or the same speaker?

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post #701 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
^^^ I love when the guy in blue says "we're not trying to dis Atmos too hard".

They ran an article on their website a few months ago explaining how Atmos speakers could not possibly work and would result in an acoustic mess.

The video continues to push their agenda, but not too hard.
While I agree that the principle of these Dolby Atmos "speakers" is kind of screwy and not the best way to recreate the Atmos "experience," their attitude is basically to laugh it off without having heard a demo themselves.

That's why I hope to make it to CEDIA this year.
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post #702 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:04 PM
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Did he play them back over two different loudspeakers or the same speaker?
The same set of speakers. It was a surround array. Two equally timed and inverse sound waves will cancel each other out. Move these out of phase sound waves a fraction of a second apart and you will start to make them out ever so slightly.

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post #703 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
While I agree that the principle of these Dolby Atmos "speakers" is kind of screwy and not the best way to recreate the Atmos "experience," their attitude is basically to laugh it off without having heard a demo themselves.
Actual experience with these speakers might interfere with their dissing of Atmos

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post #704 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:14 PM
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Actual experience with these speakers might interfere with their dissing of Atmos
True that.
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post #705 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The same set of speakers. It was a surround array. Two equally timed and inverse sound waves will cancel each other out. Move these out of phase sound waves a fraction of a second apart and you will start to make them out ever so slightly.
Still don't know what exactly he was doing or trying to demonstrate. Of course two identical signals will cancel each other if one has its polarity reversed ("out of phase"). But once you play each sound from different loudspeakers you will hear something. So what's the point of this test?

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post #706 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Any object sounds that are in the extension files are also in the channel bed "core." When the core + extension files are combined via an Atmos renderer, the sounds from the objects are also inverted out of phase with that of the sounds in the channel beds and that "cancels" them out of the channel beds. You cannot hear them. All you hear are the 3D positional object versions of those sounds laid on top of the channel beds.
Where did you get that information from?

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post #707 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:06 PM
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Actual experience with these speakers might interfere with their dissing of Atmos

Bank shot off the ceiling is something that cannot work for everyone. That does not mean that it cannot work for some.
If work means add sound, then it will always work.

I haven't seen it yet, but I expect Atmos sound bars. Sorry, but that makes me chuckle.

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post #708 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:09 PM
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Where did you get that information from?
It's the basic tenant of Dolby and DTS's codecs. DTS started using this feature back in the DVD days with DTS-ES Discrete 6.1. The left and right surround speakers in the 5.1 "core" contained the same sound information that was included in the extra discrete back channel. So, if you played the track with a regular DTS 5.1 decoder, you didn't automatically lose the audio information by losing the back surround channel in the extension file. However, once you ran the track through a DTS-ES decoder it would combine the 5.1 core plus the sixth discrete back channel. In order to get rid of the duplicated audio in the left and right surrounds, the sounds from the sixth channel were run inversely and were knocked out of the left and right surrounds... and you only heard them out of the added back surround channel.

Dolby also does this with TrueHD when adding back surround channels to their 5.1 core to make it 7.1. There are basically two mixes in one, so the same inverse sound wave technique is implemented.

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post #709 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:10 PM
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Still don't know what exactly he was doing or trying to demonstrate. Of course two identical signals will cancel each other if one has its polarity reversed ("out of phase"). But once you play each sound from different loudspeakers you will hear something. So what's the point of this test?
To show how this channel signal negation is implemented in various audio codecs.

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post #710 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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To show how this channel signal negation is implemented in various audio codecs.
It's just not how it's done. You can't just add two signals and separate them without knowing one of the signals which in return defeats the purpose.

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post #711 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It's the basic tenant of Dolby and DTS's codecs. DTS started using this feature back in the DVD days with DTS-ES Discrete 6.1. The left and right surround speakers in the 5.1 "core" contained the same sound information that was included in the extra discrete back channel. So, if you played the track with a regular DTS 5.1 decoder, you didn't automatically lose the audio information by losing the back surround channel in the extension file. However, once you ran the track through a DTS-ES decoder it would combine the 5.1 core plus the sixth discrete back channel. In order to get rid of the duplicated audio in the left and right surrounds, the sounds from the sixth channel were run inversely and were knocked out of the left and right surrounds... and you only heard them out of the added back surround channel.

Dolby also does this with TrueHD when adding back surround channels to their 5.1 core to make it 7.1. There are basically two mixes in one, so the same inverse sound wave technique is implemented.
But we're talking about Atmos here and not about older formats. So was your initial comment just how you wish or think how Atmos for the home will work or do you know more than everybody else at this point in time?

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post #712 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 03:41 PM
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But we're talking about Atmos here and not about older formats. So was your initial comment just how you wish or think how Atmos for the home will work or do you know more than everybody else at this point in time?
Since Dolby Atmos is piggybacked on top of Dolby TrueHD and the TrueHD core is backwards compatible just like in previous iterations... I am inferring that they'll use the same "trick" to eliminate sound duplication of the channel bed and the added metadata controlled objects. They're only using one track, not a "regular" track and an Atmos track on the same disc.

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post #713 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Since Dolby Atmos is piggybacked on top of Dolby TrueHD and the TrueHD core is backwards compatible just like in previous iterations... I am inferring that they'll use the same "trick" to eliminate sound duplication of the channel bed and the added metadata controlled objects. They're only using one track, not a "regular" track and an Atmos track on the same disc.
We're talking about max. 118 simultaneous objects and not just two matrixed surround channels...

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post #714 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 04:28 PM
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Bank shot off the ceiling is something that cannot work for everyone. That does not mean that it cannot work for some.
The actual bank shot wasn't the issue but their belief that you would hear the off-axis sound of the upward firing driver, and hearing that would obscure the overhead reflection. In other words, it can't work.

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post #715 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 04:35 PM
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We're talking about max. 118 simultaneous objects and not just two matrixed surround channels...
There is some doubt that consumer Atmos allows for 118 simultaneous objects. Most commercial mixes don't use 118 objects either, but they could.

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post #716 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 05:00 PM
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The flip side opinion wise. http://youtu.be/OXLQ4mIwyAk

It is true that you need more processing power for ATMOS and DTS True HD MDA no questions.

I would also agree that these speakers are probably not that great, but I keep my opinion until I hear them with my own ears rather than speculating! Andrew Jones knows what he is doing.

To me the only ATMOS will be with in ceiling speakers which I have

These guys are talking about genetics
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post #717 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 05:02 PM
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There is some doubt that consumer Atmos allows for 118 simultaneous objects. Most commercial mixes don't use 118 objects either, but they could.
So does anyone know up to how many objects can be in the home version?
Is this info available?
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post #718 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 05:32 PM
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So does anyone know up to how many objects can be in the home version?
Is this info available?
I'm planning to attend CEDIA and Dolby will be having a 90 minute talk on home audio formats like Atmos, which I signed up for. Perhaps they'll have more information available.
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post #719 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Actual experience with these speakers might interfere with their dissing of Atmos


After watching that video my high opinion of those guys just dropped several notches.
How can someone who reviews products say some of those things when not having even seen any of the product nor heard the product? They couldn't even get the "known" facts published at the Dolby website correct.

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post #720 of 2348 Old 07-09-2014, 06:15 PM
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After watching that video my high opinion of those guys just dropped several notches.
How can someone who reviews products say some of those things when not having even seen any of the product nor heard the product? They couldn't even get the "known" facts published at the Dolby website correct.

And don't forget to buy our E-books!!!
They're 2 channel guys. Probably think LP's are the be-all, end-all of audio fidelity as well.
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